Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,808 views 522 replies
Reply #426 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Question: You all keep mention the 700,000 members we have. Just how many do you think are still here? 5000? 10,000?

The point is many are no longer here.
Reply #427 from WinCustomize Forums Top
for-hire skinners


The skinner would be getting a small percentage (10-20%) of the money generated from the customer buying the skin, while the rest would go to Stardock...
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #428 from WinCustomize Forums Top
There are problems with for-hire skins. What will the agreement be? Obviously I couldn't take a skin that is for sale here and upload it to deviantart, but how much further would you have to take that? What would you do to enforce that? The skin won't, for all intents and purposes, completly belong to the skinner any more will it? If not, what rights would we retain?

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would certainly expand the definition of 'wares'. Will it continue to be permissible to include other people's DesktopX objects when some are 'for sale', and how hard will that be to police? The scripting behind the for-sale objects could be ripped out and re-applied, even by the original author. If some stuff is WC's because of exclusivity agreements, even Jafo's 'screenshot obstruction' rule would then have to bleed over to other sites, wouldn't it?

Impossible, no; hairy, yes. I think it would certainly have a 'breaking-in' period that would strain some nerves.

**

P.S...

I mentioned that some of us that can't afford to buy multiple subscriptions might be willing to donate skins and themes for subscriber content. Has there been any talk of that? Such a thing really wouldn't require any new infrastructure would it?


[Message Edited]
Reply #429 from WinCustomize Forums Top
one must admit that you don't really get a whole lot out of a subscription


Not true. I contribute to the site, that's what I get out of it.
Reply #430 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Fuzzy, for the 100 or so die-hard fans of the site like you, me and some other others, that's good enough, but if we want the site to generate 500 new subscription every month, we're going to have to think of more incentive than that.

Reply #431 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I mentioned that some of us that can't afford to buy multiple subscriptions might be willing to donate skins and themes for subscriber content. Has there been any talk of that?


I suggested that very thing in an earlier post, BakerStreet. No pay for the skin. Just 'donated' to WC for the purpose of being given out to subscribers. My thinking is that it would be a privilege or 'feather in the hat' to have a skin chosen for premium content. Maybe more of a honor than a high rating.



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Reply #432 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Just a comment on some suggestions I've seen made more than once and it concerns me a bit. People keep saying no membership without "valid ISP" e-mail address. My question is how are you going to determine what is a "valid" ISP e-mail? I happen to have SBC Yahoo DSL which means that my main e-mail address is an @yahoo.com address but it really works just like any other ISP address. If there were to be some filters put in place to keep people from using @yahoo or @hotmail addresses then that would catch people like me. So, there needs to be more thought put into it than just trying to block the free e-mail services.

I know that Stardock would have the foresight to not do something like this but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Reply #433 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if we want the site to generate 500 new subscription every month, we're going to have to think of more incentive than that.


Paxx........and that is why we should do away with WC subscription and build it into the payment you make to Stardock when you purchase or renew your software
Reply #434 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Your local mall should do that too, just run up to people and say "Hey, buy something or get out, dammit!!!".


Yes, BakerStreet but your local Mall does not let people just simply wander in and STEAL the goods and as you leave say "Feel free help yourself and come back tommorrow for some more if you like".
Reply #435 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Leo the Lion - and that is why we should do away with WC subscription and build it into the payment you make to Stardock when you purchase or renew your software


which brings us back to the point i made earlier. you are then "making" the people who buy Stardock programs support Light-step, beatnik, windows media player, and the free programs also.

when put this way, this doesn't sound so good / appealing.

for me, there are two points here:
a) the target of 500 subscriptions for this month includes the x subscriptions the site would have got without the drive

b) what do you really get in exchange for your subscription?


(a), from the figures i am seeing quoted x is very small

(b), if you simply want to get access to more downloads then the cheapest solution is to buy one Stardock program. short of locking out Stardock customers to some degree (probably unlikely) what do you really get for your subscription?

i have a subscription, i have had one for ages. why? it wasn't because i could download lots with it. i download very little these days. most skins simply don't really appeal to me.

the two premium skins? the idea sounded interesting, but as expected they turned out to hold no interest for me.

the skin browser? interesting idea, but i have never really used this. i find looking through the libraries in IE to be as easy.

the real interest for me was the skin browsers improved interface to the message board, and helping to support a site i really like.

as it turned out, using the skin browser to interact with the message board never really worked for me, so the only thing i got out of this was helping to support the site.

so, what does a subscription really offer to the regular visitors who don't already have one?

the news article on the front page said there would be additional advantages to having a subscription, but didn't say what they would be.

/me realises i am starting to argue in a circle here

i strongly feel we need both a carrot and a stick here. suggestions for the stick are numerous however, where is the carrot? apart from getting various restrictions lifted, what does anyone really gain from getting a subscription?

also saying "we will add some things for subscribers later" isn't much of a carrot. what sort of things? when? will they be of use to most subscribers? i haven't noticed much interest in the text adds from subscribers *sigh*

it is so easy to see the problems, but much harder to suggest sensible solutions.

personally, i would like to see a more powerful website for subscribers. i visit DA once in a blue moon (or perhaps less ) but the website there seems a lot more powerful and full of features.

many discussion boards offer a load of features for the people active there.

of course, anything like this will take time and resources to produce, so it is no instant magic fix. at least if we had some idea of what subscribers will get, and when, we could try and draw some attention to this carrot.

/me *sigh*

personally, i suspect something is going to have to give over the next few months even presuming we get the 500 subscribers. the level of interaction / activity by 99.999% of the people seems to be zero outside of passively downloading.



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Reply #436 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have to side with feline on most accounts.

I use the SkinBrowser for the messageboard and to check out the libraries on WC. I find it a great tool.

The premium skins haven't excited me and probably wouldn't even if there were more.

I'am in that small percentage that support the site because I like the site and want to help. But as I will be retiring in 1 year, I don't want to be priced out as money will be tighter.

One concern I have is that all the Stardock programs are in the wifes account, which leaves ne out in the cold, even though I paid for them.

Oh well, enough for now.



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Reply #437 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WOM, the current premium skins and the ones that we would be boud to have are very different. Currently, they are few, and I admit often lesser in quality than the best skins available for free from the best authors.  But now, if those same best authors instead of offering them for free to everyone from now on made them availble only to subscribers? If all the skins from Adni, Pixtudio, Mormegil, etc were stricly availble if you purchased a subscription, would one not feel compelled to subscribe?
Reply #438 from WinCustomize Forums Top
paxx, quite possably, except some of those authors upload to other sites.Adni for one. WC would have to get those authors to upload exclusively to this site. Not sure than could be done. Some yes, alot probably not unless some type of incentive were reached with them. My main concern is that the burdon not be placed on the few hard core supporters.



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Reply #439 from WinCustomize Forums Top
what will happen when greed sets in is the better skinners will upload exclusively here and stop up'ing everywhere else which will hurt the other sites (for ppl who speak concern of community one min and then take action only to worry about themselves exclusively "that" is hypocritical)

/me thinks the word community should be left out then???
Reply #440 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Doreen, do Pixtudio upload for free at other sites the suites they sell on their own web site?
If skinners wish to try to make money from their skins, Wincustomize may offer them a convenient way to do so. They could still (Pixtudio and others do) offer some free skins for all on many sites, but they may (as Pixtudio and others do) choose not to give away for free some of their better work. Not much different than what already exists, except the possibility is going to be there for more people.

WOM: the incentive for Adni and others will be their wish to make money from their work or not.  They may continue to publish some of their work on others ites, and choose to offer some exclusively to WC subscribers in order to make a bit of money.
Reply #441 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Got ya paxx. You didn't really explain that in your other post. So your saying that the skinners will get a cut of the subscriptions or that they will upload premiun skins for a price and get part of that?I can see that working. But I can't see subscribing to WC inorder to buy premium skins. Has to be one or the other.



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Reply #442 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Paxxy Treetog & Alex have been around for many moons in the skinning community and are woven in various past skinning sites, the "newer skinners that jump on here would most likely never take the "time or energy" to do both (share free & pay for skins) but rather just work hard to make exclusive skins and make money after all why waste time & possible money making free skins? unless you've been around the skinning community and want to keep them in the loop cuz you feel connected to them as well?

I'm speaking of the "newer skinners" paxxy not anyone else okay? stay open minded
Reply #443 from WinCustomize Forums Top
and I know some free skins work as a lure to capture the buck in the end but what I'm saying is this will change the majority of the better skins and change the "community" as we know it if it happens, just my two cents I don't care I have money but the kids that are enjoying skinning don't (that is my biggest gripe)
Reply #444 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Doreen, if they do what was stated a couple hundred posts back, you would have to be a journeyman and above todo premium skins. In most cased, that would mean they have been around a while, so I'am sure they would do both. The newer skinners Master Apprentice and below would be learning the craft and by the time they mand JM, they would see how things are done and I'am sure they would do both types of skins. Just my thought. Remember, if you get greedy, you usually end up poor.No one will keep buying your stuff if you don't give back.



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Reply #445 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I just cannot see the idea of premium skins being sufficient incentive to make people want to buy a subscription to Wincustomize. Sorry i just cannot see it.


I know no one can give me the answer to this - How many people do you think will visit this site today who are members or non-members who will go straight to the sections where the programs are free and have not paid a single penny to Wincustomize or Stardock?

which brings us back to the point i made earlier. you are then "making" the people who buy Stardock programs support Light-step, beatnik, windows media player, and the free programs also.when put this way, this doesn't sound so good / appealing.


feline, why? - sorry us cats normally can read each other like books but tell more as i am interested in why you say this and your overall opinion.
Reply #446 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Why not have skinners donat skins for the WC subscription? That way there can be premium suites-a-plenty.

And maybe have discounts on sold premium skins. For example if your a WC subscriber then ToonXP will cost 5 dollars instead of 9.


The skinner get noteriaty and saves the site.
Plus, there can be more options for WC subscripbers like site advatages, user icons, text banners, the formetioned discounts, skinner pages (and let skinners have sales for skins MAYBE for an extra fee), a job search engine letting people look for skinners to do projects, and a bigger Wincusto store.
Reply #447 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Maybe even a WinCusto skin for the computer casing? Laptop bag?... it has to look sweet though.
Reply #448 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmm an idea.

If you buy Object Desktop, you get Wincustomize price lessened to 10$. Since there is many Object Desktop users, it may be better, even with half price.
Reply #449 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Micro-Payments...

as suggested before by Brad...

and it does work, iTunes and a number of other content providers are already using or moving to this model because it does work. Those that have or will Subscribe (including cross referenced accounts) are already opted into a different model without extended fee's. But those who are just hanging on until the end of time are in the micro-payment model, with the ability to take part in different means of gaining full subscription as a prize for Skinning, but it is up to them to take over the update of the subscription when it runs out, or to continue expanding skinning skills to fit into another model where their skins sold with micro-payments from others helps offset the fee's for their continued subscription.

Some possible means of being awarded a subscription prize funded by donations could be...

Skinning contest on a monthly basis where one or more Subscriptions are presented as a prize (KarmaGirl came up with a great idea with this me thinks).

Subscription given to those who do the most to help support the site by means other than monetary.

Subscription awarded based upon growth of skills in Skinning and Development in other areas of Windows Modification such as DesktopX Plugins and such. ( maybe every three months or 6 months)

any number of things...

But I do think that micro-payments is a viable option which could really make a difference over a period of time as people got used to it.

I also believe that coming up with a better means of controlling theft of the Stardock products would in fact have an impact on the number of subscribing members while also promoting a higher influx of funding for the site based on the sales of those products.

Serialization...

Instead of a valid email account...

Create Trial Serial Numbers to activate the software upon install, and for those visiting they must provide a valid Trial Serial Number that cross references to the information they provided to have that serial number generated. But have a server process do the generation and email as is done with the Registered Software and email them the info. Then when they create an account here they must have that valid number and when the 30 days runs out their account is either shifted over to micro payments, or it is dinked.

With the registered Cross Reference account the Serial Number and Registration Information is cross checked to validate...

I would go further with this thought, but there isn't any need I am sure and it really isn't the best place to do it I am betting... anyway....

just some mental mastication

[Message Edited]
Reply #450 from WinCustomize Forums Top
IPlural: re the serialization thing. So you couldn't be a subscribing member here without buying a stardock product? I'm not following what a SD registration number has to do with WC.