Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,771 views 522 replies
Reply #451 from WinCustomize Forums Top
no not in the least, but as far as having access to the skins, themes and such that are Stardock product specific, yes...


The libraries cover many applications, some free. These applications are not that large of the picture really as they can be found all over the net, but it is nice to have everything in one place, for both those designing them and submitting them and those downloading them and making use of them. (these could very well fit into a micro-payment model)

Stardock specific things such as WindowBlinds Skins, DesktopX themes, ObjectBar themes and such, yes, a registered serial number could be used... Even a registered Trial serial number could be made use of...

This would allow for better control of pirating of the products and also help with the creation of multiple accounts to circumvent the policies of the site.

Trillian Pro 2 makes use of a server side validation system that cross checks peoples information against what is entered into the registration fields when installing the program client side. They just have not done a very good job with handeling bogus user info which is allowing the use of the software with hacks...

anyway... mmmm...
there is a lot which can be done to make it harder for the more informed on that issue and pretty much ending it for those less informed...

Lost sales alone would be a help on two fronts, one, more people who purchase and register the products means more ROI from those who do use the site because then it is a drawing factor.

More people who register will cross reference meaning more money off the bottom of the sale will shift to the site helping to offset costs more...


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Reply #452 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh, well that makes sense then.
DeskScapes - Bring your desktop background to life.
Reply #454 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Well, but wait. It was my understanding that Stardock hosted the Stardock skins.

I hope I am not putting my foot in it, but, frankly, Stardock will always have a skin site for their own skins. If you subtract the cost of hosting all the SD related items ( which they have always done ), how much expense is left? If I go by what Frogboy has said in the past, all the non-SD sections are a drop-in-the-bucket compared to the SD sections. Beyond that there is only the site code and messageboards, right?

So what is the ratio of cost between the items that SD will always have, with or without WC, as opposed to the costs of those things they are doing simply to support the community with no benefit to themselves? It has been pointed out that SD is doing a lot here that they don't have to do, but maybe those expenses should be looked at separately, since the rest will *still* be expenses when WC is gone.

IN that light, WC should only have to raise enough money to support the NON-Stardock oriented content, right? What percentage of the expenses will Stardock still have if WC goes down tomorrow?


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Reply #455 from WinCustomize Forums Top
That would be something lik:

expenses = bandwidth costs * stardock bandwidth / total bandwidth

With:
expenses = expenses for StarDock if Wincustomize were to go down and they were to provide hosting for skins for their own apps
stardock bandwidth = bandwidth used by skins/themes for StarDock software
Reply #457 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Maybe even a WinCusto skin for the computer casing? Laptop bag?... it has to look sweet tho


Yeah right........I'm wearing my Wincustomize Y-Fronts right now
Reply #458 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I suck at math. If that meant

(total transfer) - (total transfer of SD skins) = WC expenses

Then yeah, that is what I mean roughly. It seems like income for WC should be compared to WC expenses, not the total expenses.

**

Also, considering that Themes site is just a front end for this one, shouldn't it play some part in the whole thing? Do people bang the hell out of it without knowing it is WC? Need to visit, I forget how that works.
Reply #459 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The same it carries today, no more, no less...

thats just it...

beyond the ones who do subscribe(including those who cross reference) Stardock foots the total sum left over...
Reply #460 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Woooah, now, wait.

http://www.xpthemes.com/

This site is a front end to the DB here, has no membership, and appears to be a free download site. Is that transfer subracted from WC's expenses?

Is there a cap for people who browse there? What is the deal with that? Why are people there allowed to download from this database without even knowing WC exists? Sure, the top link points here, but they really never have to hit it, do they?

**

IPlural: Yes, but even back in the skinzorg days Stardock hosted their own skins. If the implication is that that WC needs to pull its own weight, then SD's permanent expenses should be subtracted, right?

If SD is gonna have skin-hosting expenses with or without WC, then I don't think those expenses should be taken into account when deciding on WC's survivability. I have a feeling if you remove all the transfer SD will be paying for with or without WC, the chance of WC paying it's own way is much, much more likely.
Reply #461 from WinCustomize Forums Top
XPTheme (WinC - Lite) pretty much makes this thread for probably 75% or better of future subscription considerations moot...

sad to say...

sheesh...

/me picks up H&K pulls back slide chambering round and turns head with cringing look on face as he points it his foot.
Reply #462 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hrm. Maybe I am grumpy today, but in light of the unlimited anonymous downloads here, and the leeching of the DB from http://www.xpthemes.com/ XPThemes, and the fact that Stardock uses this site as their SOLE skin repository, I am growing dubious. Isn't JoeUser hosted on these servers too? How is that fat pipe divided?

Stardock moved the expense of hosting their own skins here, created at two new outlets for advertising ( WC and XPThemes ), and suddenly WC is a big leech on Stardock? I'm not following this anymore. I was really positive about this drive as a way of paying for the hardware, but I sense leverage in the works.

I was a tad annoyed by the assertion that "The point is that we need to sell 500 a month to be able to fund the site" ( KarmaGirl post #408), and it prompted me to look around. At $20 per membership that is $10,000 a month. Has Stardock moved a large percentage of that expense here only to blame it on WC 'freeloaders'? With Stardock's self-hosted DB expenses gone, a bit of perspective is in order.

How much of this is Wc's expenses, and how much of this is considered operating and advertising expenses by Stardock? I don't mind seeing WC benefit Stardock with promotion, but this seems to be taken to an extreme with threats and the "500 memberships" per month stuff.
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Reply #463 from WinCustomize Forums Top
exactly if you can't afford the party don't have one...
Reply #464 from WinCustomize Forums Top
If this was merely a site hosting skins for ppl to enjoy I could "then" see them paying for their own party here but it is "not the fact" it is the skins supporting the apps and in return the apps support the skins and the one making the biggest profit is Stardock not the ppl skinning their apps and chit chatting on the site? So why cry to them to pay the bills, just close it maybe, but Stardock will lose alot of beautiful skins that they are now getting made for their apps.
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Reply #465 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Sorry I like WC and like the apps and the skins but don't like seeing ppl having to pull out of their pockets to pay on a threat that the site may go down on them specially when the Holidays are upon them and maybe they should be spending that money on their family rather then a web site?
Reply #466 from WinCustomize Forums Top
1. The apps depends on the availability of skins (for they are skinnable apps)
2. WinCustomize/XPThemes is the only outlet they have full control over

1 + 2 = 3

3. This site is crucial to the company. It won't be closed. Ever. The worst thing that can happen is that it will morph into a different form.


Anyhow, there's only one man who can answer baker's questions.
Reply #467 from WinCustomize Forums Top
So, to sum up some personal revelations.

1) Stardock totally moved their skin database here, shifting the blame for those expenses to WinCustomize.
2) Stardock hosts JoeUser on these servers, and XPThemes is just a membership-free front-end for this site.

How much non-WC content and traffic are lumped in with WC's expenses? Do WC's monthly $10,000 in expenses expenses include the cost of JoeUser and XPThemes, apparently income-free, sites? Is 100% of the memberships purchased used to fund Wincustomize's expenses, or are these expenses a pool of all of Stardock's web presence?

When this was about WC hardware and supplementing Stardock's generosity toward I was very positive. Now that we seem to be making the leap to WinCustomize 'paying its own way', I begin to wonder how much of this hardware and expense is truly Wincustomize's.

If people are paying extra to help WC, I think 100% of their money should be used for WC, not XPThemes visitors and JoeUser. If Stardock happened to be hosted on these servers, I think it would go a bit beyond iffy.


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Reply #468 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if they did ever shut down, ppl would merely go to the other skinning sites for skins for their stardock apps right? but when Bandwith becomes an issue on those sites from everyone running over there guess they could always limit the stardock app skins they host such as WC does limiting what skins for the other skinnable apps they host in order to limit the amount of Bandwith here?

I just think this is totally unfair to expect ppl to pay and pay and pay, the apps here "yes" they are def worth paying for I agree...
but then where does it stop? pay for subscription, pay for the skins, donate this donate that, sheesh!
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Reply #469 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Judging by the last few hops of tracert's to the sites mentioned, it would appear that they have different ip's but are behind the same router, so probably different servers in the same rack.

20 211 ms 306 ms 204 ms newhorizon.as.eqxlaxca.aleron.net [205.198.8.134]
21 218 ms 295 ms 203 ms xpthemes.com [66.54.81.55]

20 270 ms 204 ms 204 ms newhorizon.as.eqxlaxca.aleron.net [205.198.8.134]
21 218 ms 203 ms 204 ms wincustomize.com [66.54.81.61]

20 213 ms 203 ms 204 ms newhorizon.as.eqxlaxca.aleron.net [205.198.8.134]
21 211 ms 204 ms 297 ms joeuser.com [66.54.81.60]

...and I assume the dbase runs on a third machine.


I wonder what purpose XPThemes serves. No "about", copyright or mission statment anywhere.
Reply #470 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hasn't that site has always been a mistery? hehe
Reply #471 from WinCustomize Forums Top
what leaves anyone with the impression that this site could or would not just be shut down?

Anything and everything only exists as long as it lasts...

anyway...

*thinking*
Reply #472 from WinCustomize Forums Top
it could be shut down and the world would still spin...
Reply #473 from WinCustomize Forums Top
It won't. Unless StarDock steps out of the customisation biz. I am 100% certain of it. And if it does get shut down, it will be reopened in another form.
Reply #474 from WinCustomize Forums Top
exactly, and rather see them shut it down and reopen as a legit business site hosting skins for their apps then pull the community word out of the hat...
Reply #475 from WinCustomize Forums Top
IPlural: Like I told ya, Stardock has always hosted their own skins. Now they have just moved the responsibility for that to WC. IF WC goes down, then they'll either re-absorb the database under Stardock's domain, or create a new one. A company that makes skinnable software as successfully as Stardock can't 100% rely the rest of the community to host what makes their software attractive. They'll have a skin DB, regardless, like Crea says.


**

I'm in no way saying that Stardock should somehow pay for and not benefit from WC.

What I want to find out is why non-registered people here, and everyone at XPThemes have a free ride, and how much of the quoted WC expenses have been moved here by Stardock. When you are talking about freeloaders, you have to take into account that SD seems to insist on having a free-to-the-public download site. They just moved it here. Why should that somehow be WC's fault?

I'm not talking as much about the expense as I am the guilt-trip. This stuff is freely offered to the general public, why are they to blame?

When you start quoting use and expense statistics, and those statements are intended solicit donations to WC, people need to be able to trust that donations are solely for WCs health and welfare. Shouldn't XPThemes and JoeUser have membership drives as well?