Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,868 views 522 replies
Reply #376 Top
To me, income isn't *nearly* as important as operating costs in a case like this, where the point isn't profit, it is healthy existence. Streamline the process, and once you have whittled down all the waste, then you decide if the income is enough to cover future setbacks.

People don't really need skins at a gut level, like gambling or Pr0n, and they won't tolerate the kind of things those type sites can get away with. Skinz.org was a good example. At every hardship, the reaction was to pile on another annoyance for regular visitors, and pretty soon there weren't many.

I would be loath to annoy registered users, and I would under no circumstances monkey with the rights of anyone who has already paid. Both parties are potential income, and there shouldn't be any fat to trim when you cut into their comfort.
Reply #377 Top
digital_k: if the site was profiting from other people's work, this string wouldn't exist. The point is the site *isn't* profiting, not even enough to sustain itself.

All this talk about paying people for skins is a bit premature, considering the trouble they seem to have making users pay to download them.

Reply #378 Top
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work?


Every artist upon submission of his/her work is aware that he/she is uploading with the full knowledge that no monetary profits will come out of it (at least not directly from Stardock or WinCustomize)
In exchange for the display and exposure of your work the site offers the artist a space on the net server.
Any artist can go on their on and purchase a domain and set up their own website, but how much exposure will it get?
I my self have not obtain any kind of monetary compensation from the site, but my work has been expose enough that I have gotten hired by others that visit the site to create/design images, logos and graphics for their websites or business places. So it kinds of even things out
Reply #379 Top
I have gotten hired by others that visit the site to create/design images, logos and graphics for their websites or business places.


Dang, I need to do that... Imagine getting paid to have fun...
Reply #380 Top
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work



if this site was turning a profit they wouldnt be asking for help with the new servers...this site i believe was said to cost abt $10,000
a month to run ..... they are in debt not swinning in cash ...so the artists arent the only ones not makin $.....these sugestions are to get the site self sufficiant .. much less turn profit ...
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Reply #381 Top
Dang, I need to do that... Imagine getting paid to have fun


It's not fun all the time. Some of the people that will hire you are very demanding on what they are paying for so you might find your self breaking a sweat once in a while
Reply #382 Top
I have had ODNT(registered) for about a year now, and just love the Wincustomize site! I am grateful for all the lovely skins, objects, icons, etc. that everyone has made and shared. But, I did not know, or understand that as a registered member that I needed to contribute in some way until I got the Stardock Cental Browser and started looking at this discussion (never looked at them before cause I have never got into stuff like that) I thought all I had to do was register and everything was cool. I was free to download anything I wanted, and did, not thinking anything more about anything else. So, if that's the way I percieved it all, I'm sure many others are blind to all of this too, and aren't purposely leeching.
I am glad though, that I did read this discussion. It opened my eyes to things I didn't see before and I'm sorry for my ignorance.

I also purchased a WC subscription today and was glad to do so... and my opinion on this discussion would be to keep things simple. Have a certain amount of stuff free in each category and the rest for subscribers only... and then state beside each skin for example wether it's free, or for subscribers only. That way they are free to download some, plus be able to see it all, but will also know that if they want the good stuff, they will have to buy a subscription.
Reply #383 Top
So it looks very likely that they will go over 500. So it looks like nothing will change.


Soon or later you'll need to change everything.





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Reply #384 Top
I say let the site slowly change. No big changes. It'll mess up my zen.
Reply #385 Top
if you are asking me, the best way to help the site is this:

Everyone that buys a subscription get $15 for free, everyone else needs to buy 'money' themself.
This 'money' is in your account and you cant download unless you have the money there.
Downloading a skin cost you 0.05$ - 0.15$ (depends on from witch library you download.)
Imagine, 0.15$ a skin, I think everyone can miss 0.15.
lets say that 2/3 is going to stardock(/wincustomize) and 1/3 is going to the skin author.
This money that is going to the skin author is added to his account and he can get the money from there at any moment he want. (and transfer it to a pay pal account or whatever.)


I think this should solve the problem.
If you imagine how much downloads there are per day....

Just my oppinion.
Reply #386 Top
A lot of the ideas that people have thrown out there are good ones, but nobody seems to have taken into account that reaching the download cap for non-subscribers can be be dragged out over a long period of time, and that when people have pretty much an unlimited time span to reach a decision as to whether or not to purchase a subscription, they will most likely not make the decision to buy.

How about putting a time limit on non-subscription accounts? Have them expire after say 60 days with no option for renewal. This way, when a user's account expires, they are faced with either purchasing a subscription, or going on their merry way.

We all know that it is possible to create more than one account, but there is likely a way that WC can fix that issue as well.

Just a thought......
Reply #387 Top
A hard thread to follow here, but my two cents: Only if you have been living in box for the last three years will you have missed that almost nothing about the internet is free these days. My business was a DOT-Com casualty that I am only now managing to re-invent and rebuild.

Find some way to charge your downloaders. I liked the idea of viewing only, and downloading only if you are a subscriber. The idea of dividing the proceeds with the skinner *sounds* nice in theory (considering I'm in the top 10 Downloads at the moment) but I will be the first to admit that that idea is wrought with peril. Of course it is easy to think that Stardock is making money from our skins... and they are. Our graphics are what generate the sales for Windowblinds, DesktopX, etc. Without our graphics, there would be no world controlling empire that we call Stardock. But without Stardock, there would be no world wide empire to share our graphics with.

Skinning sites lately have gotten out of control. DevArt is a prime example. DevArt does happen to be one of the best community sites on the planet. But 50,000 new uploads each day? The uploads for this site have skyrocketed as well, especially with the additions of new categories such as Bootskin and ObjectDock. Growth is good. But as a former site op, finding the bandwidth and storage for all of it has to end somewhere.

Anywho, I ramble: In conclusion: I like the idea of this site being Stardock only. (and that means no wallpapers, either) It's always been known that Wincustomize was a Stardock love-child anyway, so time to bring that out of the closet and proclaim it from the tallest mountain (or server, I suppose)

And nothing in life is free: make them pay! (And if you want to kick back a portion to the author, I never turn money away... )

Share and Enjoy!
Reply #388 Top
For seriouse, give some momey to the authors.
If people don't get payed for their uploads here, why wouldn't they upload it at deviantART, artupraor, deskmod etc etc. If you are the only one with the skins people will come to wincustomize. Else they will just get it for free somewhere else.

(btw, if people have to pay for their downloads, they will start skinning too, to get back 'their' money )
Reply #389 Top
at various points in time Stardock have said that they do *not* want to increate the price of OD to fund this site. if they did, then as an OD subscriber i could well ask why am i paying to support the download of lightstep themes, beatnik skins, etc.

as a subscriber to this site i accept this, since i knew what this site did when i subscribed.



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Reply #390 Top
385 and 388: Very interesting idea Styl...
Reply #391 Top
time limit on non-subscription accounts



Uh no thanks. My account is old, and I plan to keep it for longer still.
Reply #392 Top
well i didn't bother reading this whole thing (16 pages?) but i know Wincustomize will always be open because you need a venue for skins for your apps - otherwise you're screwed. I think if you make the Stardock apps free to the general population and the other non-SD apps for only skinners and subscribers.
Reply #393 Top
Listen to Chad's post #387 - There speaks a man who is talking sense
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Reply #394 Top
Everybody buy a couple of lottery tickets today and whoever wins can donate to WC.
Reply #395 Top
I don't think "kicking back" money to the artists is at all warranted. No one forces anyone to upload here. I think the non-stardock apps should be available to the public because that in turn exposes their applications and the non-stardock apps should be for subscribers or a certain level of "class" (for lack of a better term - not sure what the correct word is for level here. I know that for skinners that are uploading quality content there should be an automatic subscription considering the skins are used to drive subscriptions, app sales and the cd that goes out.
Reply #396 Top
Well I did get a subscription and I hope it helps because I am one of those that just use the site and like to get a giggle out of some of the messages on the board
Reply #397 Top
Good for you wickedmaidtoall.......loooooove that nick. We have a lot of fun and mix it with some serious business which is what its all about. Do join in more with some of the threads and you will get to enjoy it even more
Reply #398 Top
For those of you who might be interested in the similar predicaments at DeviantArt please view this thread http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/
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Reply #400 Top
i meant to say the stardock apps should be made available to the public.