Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,808 views 522 replies
Reply #401 Top
Why doesnt wincustomize try encouraging some other sites to merge or cooperate more closely with one another? I dunno, like maybe pixtudio, xymantix, deviantart, deskmod, and skinsfactory? That way more people might be attracted to one large site and you could charge more for subscription (which is insanely cheap) and you could charge for premium skins from pixtudio and things like that? The sites together could be like the walmart of skinning. One stop shop open 24/7 for skinning with everything you need.
Reply #402 Top
I hate wal-mart. Kills out all the little stores and with them their wonderful atmospheres.
Reply #403 Top
I don't know if this has been covered and my apologies if it has (this thread is quite long), but many people are out of work and barely can afford their monthly bills and with Christmas gifts this month, it is making it insanely impossible for some. I would love to get a subscription as mine has run out, but my budget has been too tight. I know that bandwidth is very expensive, but maybe December wasn't the best month to start.
Reply #404 Top
20 bucks isnt much for a 2 year subscription. I spend more on a tank of gas that lasts me a week.
Reply #405 Top
Werewolf...the sub drive was prompted by the servers going belly up....something whose timing was not adjustable...
Reply #406 Top
LA Werewolf, Im more than sure that the site's owner is aware that not everyone has the funds available to purchase a subscription. December is a rough month because of the fact that people will rather spend their money in gifts than anything else, that is why it was covered a few pages back that if a person has the available funds and is willing to contribute it will help a lot, but if a person doesnt have the funds available at the moment he or she can do it later on.
Reply #407 Top
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/huang1203.asp

Let me know if the story does not come up....

Interesting read on content micro-payments from MIT Technology Review...
Reply #408 Top

LA Werewolf, the drive is for WC subscriptions, not Object Desktop subscriptions. 

There has been many discussions on here as well as around the office.  Many different ideas have been shared.  In my opinion, I see a mix of everything.

1) Raise the cost of the subscription and make it "per year"
2) You have to register to download.
3) Subscribers will get "premium" content
4) Skin authors that provide premium content will get some money in return.
5) Not all download sections are available to everyone.  For instance, the wallpapers probably suck more bandwidth than just about anything, maybe they should only be for subscribers.
6) Have a monthly contest with the prize being a subscription.  This will be funded by a "donation" system.

When thinking of "ideas" for the site, please also keep in mind how much it will cost to program and administer the changes.

The drive seems "good" from the number stand point, but what you aren't seeing is who is contributing.  The point is that we need to sell 500 a month to be able to fund the site.  What's the problem with the "drive"?  Well, about 1/3 of the purchases are from people who already have subscriptions.  Don't get me wrong- it is great that those people contributed, and it will get us back on our feet.  However, it doesn't help the big picture.  Are those same people going to buy a subscription every month?  No.  So, even with the drive going on, we're still only getting 2/3 (at best) of the funding from *new* people.  Out of 2 million people, you think that you could get more than  333 people to subscribe.  That is less than 4000 people per year which equates to $80,000 per year.  That is $40,000 short of our bare operating costs for the site per year.  (Lets not even talk about hardware and the "other" stuff that happens).  From the very beginning we have tried to make this site "community driven", but that means that it has to be community funded.  If Stardock has to pay over 1/3 of the bill every year, it is not community funded.

Reply #410 Top
Well said, KG........As i have tried to say all along "keep it simple". Put more locks on the "front door" to entice people to subcribe. I know this is tricky as we want people to come here but they have got to be the right sort of people i.e those willing to put their hands in their pockets. Hopefully some of your points together with some others will redress the situation.

BTW - I could not help laughing when the subject of "paying for skins" was voiced. I had this picture in my head of you, Angie siting in the office banging your head against the desk and coffee flying all over the place
Reply #411 Top
Leo !!!!

or looking around her office walls for a free space to make use of the Fist Of Death

Reply #412 Top
IP.........I heard that Brad did a "Saddam" and went into hiding for a few days
Reply #413 Top


You know on a serious note, I know what everyone puts into the site and all that, but Brad is one I kind of feel bad for and also at times have worried about because I know from past experiences with our business and picking the direction I want to go with digital art, just how much the person at top has invested beyond money. I know what it is like to be at home worrying the whole thing over and over in my mind and to be only partly there when my daughter is needing my attention, only to get pissed off because I find I have not been giving it to her, or other things. I am also sure this is something that many others including Karmagirl, T-Man, paxx, Koasati, Jafo and others do to some extent.

Or end up in bed talking with my wife at night about directions of something with emotional investment put into it and wanting nothing more than for it to succeed, and she is at a loss to help because she knows what it means to me and yet sees what it does or is doing to me so she holds back her feelings of telling me to end it and try to help figure out ways to make it work.

I am sure that it is the same thing in some if not many respects for those who make this site exist from the operational stand point and also those of us who are part of the community...

anyway,, that reads insides out and side ways...

I guess I am saying that I do not think some really grasp what it takes beyond time, money and efforts to make such a thing exist and if they do they refuse to wrap their mind around it and accept it as proof of a desire to give to others...

/me thinks I have about painted him self into a corner quit nicely with this post...
Reply #414 Top
IP......that came from the heart, did'nt it. And whats more you are absolutely right. The commitment and sacrifices that Brad and many of the other "seniors" put into this place is not appreciated enough and perhaps when people read your post they may then begin to understand.
Reply #415 Top
It sure would be nice to see a 'Premium Suites' section over there in the library

Split the profits with the author(s) and WC...There are plenty of skinners that would give it their all to get one into the 'Premium' section just to have a shot at getting something in return rather than just a pat on the back. Both party's win

If it doesn't meet 'Premium' standards after heavey moderation and testing...then off to the free section it goes

I dunno...Maybe I'm a little off track here or maybe it's already been suggested but it would sure get me back into skinning
Reply #416 Top
Whew! I made to the end of this thread. Great Ideas from all and I want to thank the folks that keep this community running It takes more time, effort and sweat than most could ever imagine (including me ) to keep this site running so well, not to mention money, which is what this thread is mostly about.

Here's my 2-cents....

1. I agree with no registered account with valid ISP e-mail....no access other than viewing.

2. I think that anything else that cuts what is offered, will reduce the number of registered users, which will reduce the opportunity for new subscriptions. I think you are only ever going to get a certain percentage of registered users to subscribe. Kinda like retail store credit cards (The more people you can entice to fill out a credit app, the more credit cards you put into the hands of your customers, the more money they will spend vs. non-store credit card people and the more incentives/deals you offer store credit card holders the more they will spend).

3. I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but since this site does generate huge traffic, why not seek corporate sponsorship from companies that are highly recognisable to most consumers (Coca-Cola, Budweiser, Nintendo, etc.) kinda like NASCAR does. Incorporate their brands into some skins and on some webpages. Just an idea....needs work

Happy Holidays Everyone
Reply #417 Top
Putting up the price is only going to hurt the people willing to contribute. Most of whom would be willing to contribute more anyway. The real target needs to be the vast majority who contribute nothing. They need, if not willing, to be made to pay.

Why should those willing to contribute have to pay for those who won't
Reply #418 Top
Fuzzy, if/when this is implemented, the subscription will have a whole lot more value. Right now, one must admit that you don't really get a whole lot out of a subscription. Two premium suites and a skin brower, that a lot of people don't even use.  But if/when this comes though, there should be a good number of premium suites available at no extra cost, exclusively to WC subscribers. Now that starts being a good incentive to subscribe IMO, and will be worth the price increase.
Reply #419 Top
I agree with FuzzyLogic. Jacking the price isn't needed. The need is to get more of the 700,000 to feel its in there interest to subscribe. Getting more money from those few that have subscribed isn't the way to go.



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Reply #420 Top

Well, it's going to have to increase anyway. For one thing, the subscription was for one year, but it got extended to a bonus second year. The bonus lasted a while, but it can't last forever. Second, if the skinners are going to get a cut on it, it can't be the same price.

Right now, buying a subscription is almost just an act of support for the site. You don't get much from it. What we need is a subscription that has value. People need to get something for their money. And they will with this new plan. Say there is 50 or 100 top quality exclusive skins, don't you think it would be worth more than a lousy $20 for two years?

Reply #421 Top
Who know paxx. I haven't even downloaded the ones that are available as a subscriber. Didn't like them. How many would I like of the ones that would be in your 50 to a 100 I wouldn't know. So who's to say that would be a benifit! I did it to just help out.So thats $40 for the wife and I. So whats that now going to cost?



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Reply #422 Top
Make It Subscription ONLY, Without all the non-subscribers, you won't need as much to run the site.

If over 2 million have been to the site, apparently they know what they'd be missing.


Lose the freeloaders



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Reply #423 Top
Hum, 50 to 100 skins for subscribers? Who is going to make them? I don't think 1 person could do that many in a year. So that means paying a number of people to make them. If WC has to do that, we might as well go to all premium skins and buy the ones you really want.That way the subscription price can be nominal and the site can still get its take off the skins.



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Reply #424 Top
Meyend Tripp: Sure. Your local mall should do that too, just run up to people and say "Hey, buy something or get out, dammit!!!". Would make the place infinitely less expensive to run.

Instead, why not limit the wear and tear the freeloaders can do, and keep them here so you can influence them to subscribe? This drive is well-targeted and seems to be working. The emphasis should be on crowding more people onto that target by getting them registered and on their way to their 50 meg limit.

Villainizing them or imposing pr0n-site style annoyances will just drive them away. Less waste, more *quality* content. That doesn't mean paying skinners, either. As I said on the previous 'Mac user' thread, you can't have a thriving hobby where the hobbyist has to be paid for their work, and you can't run this site on solely for-hire skinners.

Frogboy could afford to pay me for my best work, but he wouldn't want to. I'd much rather give it away than establish some ridiculously low-end scale for all the work talented artists do here.


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Reply #425 Top
At this juncture in this debate i would just like to say one thing and that is everyone who has joined in on this thread has done so because they CARE.....Some of us have different ideas on the way forward but the bottom line is we all deeply CARE about this place and we are ALL united in the determination that Wincustomize will be better and stronger as a result of whatever solution is decided upon. If i were in Brads and all the Mods and Wizops shoes i would most probably have quite a headache by now but i would also be quietly pleased that all you people feel very strongly about your beloved Wincustomize