Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,768 views 522 replies
Reply #501 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Leo, wasn't offended. Been where you are, did what you did. Wasn't trying to be rude, so continue being yourself. Just do what you sugested, step back look and listen. Might try and reread the thread objectively, if you have time. You might pick up on some things.



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Reply #502 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Will do, WOM.........Although i have read the thread several times and i still think the way it was starting to go was a bit "unfair" to say the least.

Still love you.........hands WOM a can of Fosters
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #503 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Allow me my soapbox for a moment...

I found Wincustomize by pure accident and have not left since. I reigstered and used the trial version and did/have purchased many of the products becuase I like the products. However, I appear to be in a minority .

It is the way of the world to open every locked door simply because it is locked. No matter how hard Wincustomize tries it will not be able to shut out the freeloaders. It may catch some but not all. Some 10 year old will take Wincustomize's locks to the site as a personal challenge and not rest until he/she gets thru the locks.

Knowing that, why not have a two face site? One full of ads and teasers about how nice everything is, allow LIMITED DOWNLOADS (50 MB is very generous), and then a second door that can only be accessed by paying subscribers with traceable email addresses, ISPs or whatever.

I have not read all 502 posts; this may have been suggested by someone better at typing and thinking at the same time.

My time on the soapbox is over now.

Thanks

[Message Edited]
Reply #504 from WinCustomize Forums Top
BamyAne, na your not a minority even amoung those with reservations or opposing opinions. The only people excluding a couple that I have read posts from all have some personally held connection to the site, even more so for some who are more vocal and asking questions...

your in good company
Reply #505 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Still love you.........hands WOM a can of Fosters


and you hand him a Fosters?




Reply #506 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Baker...the costing/self-sustainability issue could be interpreted as Wincustomize [and its community - yes, Doreen that 'c'-word] moving towards the concept of total self-sufficiency.....without the parenthood of Stardock at all.

What one sees as a possible disaster/scam/scull-duggery can easily be totally logical and reasonable.  Just depends on initial mind-set.

More detail and accuracy is needed to allay some of the speculation which is just that....speculation.

Reality would have it that when Stardock was hosting its own stuff [without Wincustomize] both the company and its 'content' and traffic was quite substantially smaller.

Wincustomize.com has grown to be between 3000 and 5000 at any time in the top-sites [for traffic/hits] in the world....[and we all know that most of those ahead are pron, anyway....though Google, Microsoft, CNN...etc, etc....must all be considered too].

That growth has required constant upgrading to the server hardware, bandwidth, etc...which has been [almost] entirely funded by Stardock as the site's dynamics/setup has not paid the way, or anywhere close.

Now, Frogboy posted this thread to raise awareness of what a funding black-hole Wincustomize.com has become through its very popularity......and needs must change.

Since nothing is ever permanent in this world or the next, one can entertain the concept that 'if' Stardock no longer existed....they moved on to 'Garden Supplies R Us' and no lnger did anything even remotely involved with skins or even computers, would we just let Wincusto vaporize into the ether, or would its self-sufficiency enable it to continue much as it is now, or even morphing MORE into something like the skinz.org of old.....big, popular, and catering for all..?

These are just thoughts.....an alternate 'universe' to the one of suspicion or even paranoia as has been voiced.

XPThemes is an alternate front-end to this same site, using the same database and thus it, too is not an issue with regards to artists' works being hosted elsewhere....

But back to the topic....I'd like to seea little less of the 'free access' and a little more of the 'pay to enter'.....however way it is done...

Reply #507 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jafo: Yeah, I understand. My thing, though, is that the traffic would have expanded had the DB stayed under Stardock's umbrella anyway, they just shifted the blame for the expense.

I'm not trying to be all 'conspiracy' about it, I promise. I guess it was the whole '1/3' statement and the 'freeloader' stuff that bothered me. Like I say, I don't have problems with how things are done now, even XPThemes. I just don't like the idea that WC is somehow a runaway train unto itself.
Reply #508 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm stapling my fingers to the desktop and only reading this from now on....

Reply #509 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Been lurking a while here and this is my first post... been playing with OD for about a year now, and my take is this. I could care less if everything is given away for free or if it becomes a subscription only service or something in-between. I've had a blast with object desktop and happily paid the subscription fee here... it's cheap at 20 bucks and I've gotten a lot of enjoyment from all the hard work of the people running WC and the talented artist/programmers that contribute. As long the subscription stays reasonable and talented folks keep submitting works of desktop art for me to enjoy I'm here for the long haul and will keep paying a reasonable fee for the service. If things change in the future and the expense becomes burdensome or the talented folks stop creating, I guess then I'll move on and remember WC with fondness.

I can say as a casual user, I would be totally unwilling to pay a per skin/theme/wall/style/whatever charge. That would be pretty much a deal breaker for me and I suspect large percentage of the casual userbase, which is probably the vast majority of OD users. I also think a tiered approach to subscriptions based on MB transfers/month would be confusing and probably be counterproductive overall (too many choices would lead to too much thought, too much indecision, and ultimately too few subscriptions... the more decisions people have to make before a purchase would lead to less purchases overall). The exception would be a MB limit on free material to download... that makes sense. Take it for what it is worth, just a casual users opinion.



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Reply #510 from WinCustomize Forums Top
feline - which brings us back to the point i made earlier. you are then "making" the people who buy Stardock programs support Light-step, beatnik, windows media player, and the free programs also.when put this way, this doesn't sound so good / appealing.


Leo the Lion - feline, why? - sorry us cats normally can read each other like books but tell more as i am interested in why you say this and your overall opinion.


/me wonders how to explain this, to myself as well as others
when you purchase OD, what are you buying? at root, you are buying the programs.

as has been mentioned, before the time of WC, Stardock hosted skins for these programs themselves. having purchased the programs, or even with the (limited feature trials) the skins were free to download and use.

if you change the ground rules to say that when purchasing OD you are also funding a website hosting wallpapers, lightstep, and other non OD content.

so, you are now saying "we have increased the price because we want you to pay to help host totally unrelated programs."

perhaps "totally unrelated" isnt quite the right phrase, but hopefully you see what i mean. this is as much a question of appearance as anything else.



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Reply #511 from WinCustomize Forums Top
/me has read the last couple of pages with interest

i wasn't really aware of XPThemes. however, before everyone reaches to many conclusions, we really need some facts.

one statement that really struck me here is that the bulk of the bandwidth for this site is used for Stardock programs. does anyone know this is true? or is it simply "obvious"?

i don't know, but i have seen comments before that the biggest single bandwidth user at this site is the wallpapers! if this is still true, then please remember that wallpapers aren't for a Stardock program

also, remember the sections for Bootskins, Logons and ObjectDock. these are for Stardock programs, but since these are free programs they aren't directly helping to make Stardock money.

you can argue that these programs help to advertise Stardock, so they are worth it, etc. however, the bandwidth their skins use still has to be paid for.

going back to the "Stardock have to host skins" idea, i agree. however, for those of us who remember the Stardock skin hosting site, compare what you remember with WC. there was no discussion board, no wallpapers, no non Stardock programs. there was nothing there to foster a community. personally i don't want to see us loose the benefits of wincustomize.

at the same time, the question of bandwidth usage from XPThemes and other sites is a fair one. if the combined cost of these other sites is 1% of the cost of wincustomize, then they are a red herring. however, of their cost is 50% of the "total wincustomize cost" then this is a different matter.

passions are running high, mine included. we wouldn't be here having this discussion if we didn't care! just look at the number of people here talking (very small) compared to all the visitors to wincustomize. 99.999% of the visitors aren't commenting, and probably aren't even reading this.

we all care, and we all want the best solution. we really should wait for the facts before making accusations though



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Reply #512 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hm, i still have that feeling that the royalities you´ll have to pay for selling merchandise (when this site turns into paying-member-only more than it already is with the download cap) will be higher than you could ever generate with subscriptions.
the new BootSkins section alone could be a bloodbath for any lawyer.

not that i would care that much, but it will be interesting to watch.
Reply #513 from WinCustomize Forums Top
feline, I agree wholeheartedly!! I have read every post (ok, I scanned a few) in this thread so I think I can shed some light on some of your comments...

but i have seen comments before that the biggest single bandwidth user at this site is the wallpapers!


I believe you are dead on. Wallpapers have been stated to hog the most bandwidth and moderation time of all of the libraries here at WC.

remember the sections for Bootskins, Logons and ObjectDock. these are for Stardock programs, but since these are free programs they aren't directly helping to make Stardock money


True, but I think that the skins for these apps are soooooo small that they probably don't even factor into the equation. Of course there are going to be exceptions, for instance when Chad releases large groups of Indemnity icons there is probably a short lived jump in bandwidth usage for the OD section but I doubt that the day after day usages for these sections can compare to the WB, IP or wallpaper sections.

the question of bandwidth usage from XPThemes and other sites is a fair one. if the combined cost of these other sites is 1% of the cost of wincustomize, then they are a red herring. however, of their cost is 50% of the "total wincustomize cost" then this is a different matter


I've heard about XPThemes in the past and visited it once but I don't think that it uses even one percent of the bandwidth that WC uses. Maybe XPThemes can become the site some people have suggested with loads of banner adds, plenty of annoying pop-ups and download limits of say 10MB. They could even require an account before ANY downloading can be done in which case the download limit can be capped based on accounts and the process for creating accounts could be made more tedious to discourage the freeloaders from somply creating hundreds of new accounts.

As far as JoeUser goes, I doubt it affects WC in the least. Like you said, I would have to see some definitive proof before I will believe otherwise. As far as linking from JoeUser to WC, are there downloads linked from JU? I don't think so, just links to pages.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be an equitable solution for those of us who are willing to contribute in some useful way to this site and to the company who funds it!
Reply #514 from WinCustomize Forums Top
feline.....Thank you for the clarification, i understand where you are coming from now and

we all care, and we all want the best solution. we really should wait for the facts before making accusations though


Well said, here here and

And after reading Jafo's post - That was so eloquently put Jafo. Why can't i write like that? Guess i need to go back to school and

I'm stapling my fingers to the desktop and only reading this from now on....


@IP.........me too.......i think if WOM had his way i would be gagged and handcuffed as well ......Leo apologises to WOM for handing him a FOSTERS and gives him a CASTLEMAINE XXXX instead.....BTW IP, John how's your foot
Reply #515 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Another concerned individual checking up on this thread



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Reply #516 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Feline: there have been discussions in the past about the wallpaper and non-stardock sections. At that time Frogboy stated that those were a relatively small percent of the traffic for the site. Perhaps that has changed, I'm just going on what I have heard from people here.

It really doesn't matter if XPThemes is a 'drop in the bucket'. When someone pays for a subscription here, it pays for anonymous downloads there ( and here ), some of which are no doubt folks that hit their 50 meg cap and just logged out. As it stands now, it is "Anyone can download as much as they like, but the core community better pay for 66% of it, or it isn't a community site."

As I said, I'm not against anything that has been implemented, or most of what has been suggested. I just think it would be wrong to go from "please help us pay for this" to "you guys better be paying the majority of the expenses or you are freeloaders". I don't think "you guys" are the problem.

I don't think that was Frogboy's intent with this string, and I was happy until the mood changed. We just need to temper our collective guilt with a bit of reality as to Stardock's inherent control and benefit.
Reply #517 from WinCustomize Forums Top

BakerStreet: FYI, XPThemes is the same as visiting here with an anonymous account.

Also, know that XPThemes was an experiment that never really took off and no real effort was ever really put to make it popular. It may very well just get shut down, it wouldn't surprise me, since the days of anonymous downloads here or there are just about over.  At least I think so.

 

Reply #518 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You now have my small contribution ($19.95) for such a myriad of cool products, and access to creative works by hundreds of amazing artists and skinners. Thanks.
Reply #519 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Leo, foots ok, though I think I shot my mouth off

which is being avoided from here out...

Reply #520 from WinCustomize Forums Top
What I want to find out is why non-registered people here, and everyone at XPThemes have a free ride, and how much of the quoted WC expenses have been moved here by Stardock. When you are talking about freeloaders, you have to take into account that SD seems to insist on having a free-to-the-public download site. They just moved it here. Why should that somehow be WC's fault?I'm not talking as much about the expense as I am the guilt-trip. This stuff is freely offered to the general public, why are they to blame?When you start quoting use and expense statistics, and those statements are intended solicit donations to WC, people need to be able to trust that donations are solely for WCs health and welfare. Shouldn't XPThemes and JoeUser have membership drives




Well said.

I to agree that WinCustomize benifits from being open and have people freely download items.

There has to be a balance on the bandwidth side of things for this site to succeed. Why do the 'freeloaders' have the high bandwidth server? Give them the low one.

Why do these downloaders get to see all of the sections? Give them a limited veiw much like XPThemes does.

On the marketing side of thing I firmly believe that shoving down the throat of visiters to buy a suscription once they download 3 items is not a good deal. Direct them to different sites would be more helpful and add at the bottom a OR,/b clause that would lead them to the subscription.


As for thos who download more than 50mb tough luck. They get the annouing "Subscribe to the site" ad.


We need to separate the freeloaders from the honest 'just want to try it out' people.
Reply #521 from WinCustomize Forums Top
@IP......know how you feel

No harm has been done and that's all the matters - as far as i am concerned your post number 413 is most probably THE MOST IMPORTANT
post on the whole of this thread. I have read it several times and
i don't think even Jafo could have put it any better.

If anybody reading this thread has not read post 413 by IP - please
read it. It says a helluva lot
Reply #522 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh and I think XPThemes is just a different version of WinCustomize.

It is not a separate site on a different server using a different database.

What I believe XPThemes is, is that it is not as confusing as WinCustomize. You guys might be used to it here (as so am I) but in the end there is way to much info for the normal internet user.


As I said before, limits on what can be seen and downloads should cut back expenses quite allot but it has to be done smartly.


Open site for all:
1)
Only see work that is rated 8 and up
2)
See only up to 12 pages of designs per section
3)
View only specific sections (also they will not be able to search for items; searching is database intensive)
4)NO ANNOYING pages saying to subscribe. They get the page that says they can also go to other sites for content OR buy a subscription here.


(This way you gain the respect of those who you invite to the site as well as, hopefully later on, them coming back because this IS one of the best sites for skins.

Marketing Ploy 101:
Treat your visitors with respect and honesty so they come back)




For those who sign in and DO NOT CONTRIBUTE ANY ART, MESSAGEBOARD HELP OR NEWS STORIES:
1)
50 to 100mb downloads
2)
Only can download 2mb files.
3)
They get the more annoying 'Support WinCustomize' ads


All other users:
Get what ever wincusto offers