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This is not a balance discussion, everyone worth a damn playing know the vl titan is grossly overpowered.
So my question is why are we still allowing them in multiplayer games ?
The VL Titan is only grossly overpowered if you only allow it to get to level 6.
The Advent Rebels Titan is much more powerful and relevant at all levels.
There's more than that to the strength of the VL titan - Desperation splash damage/aoe affecting corvettes making it one of the few titans that you can't counter with corvettes is another factor. Its micro-jump giving it a get out of jail free card and a way to easily nom nom carriers is another. I think it would make MP pretty boring to ban vasari altogether though.
I think VL should be banned. I'm fine allowing VR but without allowing jumping starbases...its kind of like how we are allowing AR without wail.
The problem is, people are banning VR altogether for its Freaking Tech! Not just the sb. And now if VL is banned, then the entire Vasari race is gone, and the game will be reduced to plain light/corv rushes...
MP will die before long
VL titan is by far the most powerful titan in game...it is the only titan that can tackle corvettes pre-lvl 6, and when it does get to level 6, it's getting a much better ability than dissever....
Even if desperation didn't affect corvettes, desperation is still going to outperform the other titan AoEs, in no small part because of micro phase jump....hell, I'd still take the VL titan over the other 5 even if it didn't have an ultimate ability....the supreme raw firepower of the Vorastra is just a nice added bonus...
The only broken thing about VL is their titan...it is the hardest to kill and the most devastating against enemy fleets....you can't easily corner it, and you can't easily run away...
VR on the other hand are ridiculously broken...
First is their titan...while not as good as the VL titan, the Kultorask is clearly next in line at low levels....it is much harder to brute force early/mid game than the Eradica and isn't as vulnerable to PMs...
Second is jumping starbases...this is obviously broken, no need to further discuss...
But there are other factors as well....for one, PMs are already practically broken in Vasari vs. Advent matchups, mainly because of the unusually high base damage of Vasari bombers...that VR get stronger PMs just completely breaks any PM wielding units....then we have the fact that they can let allies use their phase network, which means that the other factions (who are specifically balanced around NOT having phase nodes) now get one of the most powerful abilities in the game....
Too many people like Vasari for what they are, OP or not, and if both races were banned you'd have a lot of pissy people....the only thing wrong with VL for the most part is their titan...PMs and Orky rushes are annoying and arguably problematic, but it's really the titan that sets them over the edge....but, an OP titan is I think easier to deal with than OP EVERYTHING that the VR have....
The only problem is that VL titan is the only 1 who can use aoe to corvette!
all others will be killed by hundreds of corvettes
There are 3 problems with Vasari Loyalist in my opinion.
1. the OP titan that cannot even be killed liked the other ones, you just micro-phase it and it's gone, have fun chasing it..
It can have AOE without antimatter that will slowly rape everything you have. Even corvettes.
The level6 ability can be avoided if you handle your fleet well, but still a major threat.
2. Scuttling planets, kostura-jump to an enemy world->have fun killing the superb brutal vasari fleet->boom your planet is gone->rinse and repeat, leaving your turf only floating space junk playground, while he has normal planets or huge bunch of resources in stock. Even in 5v5 where you kill with much blood and losses the other enemies you won't have enough resources to kill the rampaging Vasari fleet that can escape in every moment to almost everywhere on the map..
3. Overall OP-ness of Vasari race, especially against Advent in late game, is a Vasari late game full fleet even possible to defeat without 2-3 full opposing fleets?
BUT can we ban Vasari? It would make this game plain if we did, but we can allow VR without jumping lolbases, but nothing can be done to mitigate VL.. ban titan? LOL not good
Its not just the VL titan but also strip to the core makes VL broken. You can still use strip to the core even if you don't have the equivalent of 8 imperial labs. Sure its capped to supply fleet now but its still no way near enough.. you get insane amounts of resources. In fact, once VL get this tech, they become even more op than a late game VR with jumping sbs, given that they strip 3 non-roid/moon planets.
As for the VR titan, well it might still be relatively op compared to other titans but its surely easier to fight and counter with a fleet (pretty sure it doesn't affect corvettes with its aoe's?) and bombers.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this dependent on diplo relations? If it is, how often do we see people sending envoys nowadays?
Quite a few folks here also saying the game would be bland without vasari. Like I said, ban VL, allow VR but don't allow jumping orkies. We are allowing AR trusting people don't use wail, so why not the same with VR and jumping sbs?
While I agree VR are also op, I would rather deal with them than have to deal with a single lvl 6 vorastra. Once this is on the loose, any amount of maw-able fleet becomes meaningless. And even then, with strip to the core you can max out your fleet in no time.
I think what makes SttC still seemingly OP is that the Vasari fleet is unstoppable....were Advent or TEC to have SttC, it wouldn't be nearly as bad because neither of those factions have as strong of late game fleets....if the VL titan were nerfed (at the very least to not affect corvettes) and Vasari bombers weren't as powerful, I don't think SttC would be too problematic....
It is easier to fight than the VL titan, in part because only dissever (lvl 6) affects corvettes....it also can't runaway as easily or drive off carriers as well...that said, if it catches the carriers, they are going to be in really really bad shape...
The phase pact allows allies to use phase gates, yes...but, there is also a VR tech that does the same thing and I believe you simply have to be allied with the faction for them to get the benefit...
Agreed that strip to the core in the hands of another race would not be as bad fleet-wise, but it's OP more because of the amount of resources you can get in no time just from stripping a few planets rather than the fact that vasari end game fleets are most bad-ass. It's just unfortunate that a tech like this is given to the race which can field a fleet that does most DPS.
The diplomatic research does not need any relationsip rate, just to be allied, it doesn't say you need 11.5 relationship or such. I checked this today. However the pact needs, but the pact is not researched ever online (because of which I am sad, as the game loses one of the many aspects just because it is not the best in cost-efficiency, the pacts and envoys)
I can understand people fearing multi player becoming bland without Vasari. But the problem is at the moment it is 100% positively bland. Every game with competent VL players turns out exactly the same way. Games go on for ages and ages, even if one high tech vl remains, because even if the opposition team have every advantage, fleet, eco, map, they have no way of trapping and killing of the vl titan.
It is turning the game boring and stale. Every single day you are seeing more and more players pick VL, in the end we are going to end up with 5vs5 VL's going at each other. I seriously can not imagine anything more bland then that.
it is strange I don't see that tendency more people want to do VL, it is so cheap.. and not a big merit winning with them. Same goes for VR, but still having only Advent and TEC players will be boring and some time later even another faction will be banned saying like Advent Rebel is OP from these 4 factions, or something similar.
Maybe the solution is to change Vorastra not to be able to flee like a coward dog every time you want to kill it, and not letting the Vasari get a so powerful late game fleet, but this needed another fixing patch.... and who knows when it will come out, and would it really change these things?
It is turning the game boring and stale. Every single day you are seeing more and more players pick VL, in the end we are going to end up with 5vs5 VL's going at each other. I seriously can not imagine anything more bland then that.
The bolded part is doubtful. It clearly is not the easiest task, but as long there is at leats a resemblance of teamwork in that team, there is no way the VL player could run away with Vorastra from you forever, regardless of its movement advantage. If you destroy all the phasegates he spawned around the map, he cant really run more than to the adjacent gravity well...and ultimately he will find himself cornered.
This is true, but let's be fair...
How many skilled TEC players lead with something other than a marza? Seriously, how many? It is almost exclusively marza leads with cobalt spams...I'd say it pretty much trivializes the early game for TEC frontliners as it's all about who gets to MB first...
I could go on, but in general the basic strategies for all factions are rather few in number...
I almost always lead with akkan. Though yes, most people tend towards the marza.
Why are the TR still allowed? Their titan has this big-ass gun that can kill a bunch of stuff when you Overcharge it or use abilities, and they can ally with pirates and militia!
Why are the TL still allowed? They can have two starbases with Big Red Button that can cripple your fleet!
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Well I play TEC almost always, I use the Akkan 9 times out of ten. The Akkan can be used as a counter to a Marza Missile Barrage too. Another reason why I like the Akkan.
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thanks to both for adding relevant insight to the conversation as usual.
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