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You Can "Know"

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You Can "Know"

With Full Assurance

from JoeUser Forums

"Freedom comes from knowing the truth.  Bondage results from missing it."

I read those words recently from a well known Pastor.  I thought, "Ain't that the truth?" 

Someone here on JU asked me recently how I can "know" that I'm going to heaven since he believes we really can't know for sure.  I refuted that, because I do absolutely know for sure I'm going to heaven.  I have been set free from that doubt of not knowing. 

There are some religious groups out there that teach you can't be sure.  One teaches the best time to die is when you're walking out of a confession booth.  That would be the only time you can be sure of your salvation.  How sad.

I say nonsense.  All a bunch of nonsense. It's a man-made teaching. They are teaching fear and guilt to keep you in line.  That's all that is. Some call it brainwashing.  I agree.   If I must do or not do something to keep from losing my salvation, then salvation would have to be by faith and works.  Keeps me coming!! 

It's the works part, these religious organizations are most after.  If they can convince you of this, you will continue to work and work and work for the church to ensure that your ticket to the hereafter is secure. 

Nonesense.   I believe this type of teaching is exactly why so many are dissatisfied with organized religion.  I don't blame them one bit.  Someday, the leaders in these churches will have alot to answer for.  With much responsibility comes much accountability. 

So what is at stake?  Many things.  Peace, assurance, joy, love for instance.  They all are related.  If you don't have assurance of God's acceptance you can't have peace and without peace you can have no joy.  A person with no peace is really motivated by fear.  Fear and love don't match up well. 

John said this:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."  1 John 5:13

Think about it.   If Christ came to seek and save the lost wouldn't it have been wise on God's part to snatch us to heaven right then, the moment we are saved in order to insure we make it?  Otherwise God is taking a great risk  forcing us to stay here and walk thru a very sinful world.  Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "bad company corrupts good character."  We all know there's plenty of bad characters around us every day. 

Another thing to think about.  If we don't have this assurance, peace, and joy because it's replaced by fear in losing our salvation doesn't that spill over to worry?  Didn't Jesus tell us worrying is a sin?  Didn't Paul tell us to be anxious over nothing?  How can we reconcile these things if God is holding our ticket to heaven over our heads in the hopes we are good little boys and girls.  If we mess up.....oh well.  Ticket rescinded.

No, the only way we can have the peace and joy and assurance is to believe Christ when he said those that come to him can have eternal life.  When we come to him, he says, we can have life more abundantly.  This is not the same type of life the world offers.  But if we tell others that we can't be sure of our eternal security then it's no diff than what the world offers.  Who wants that?   The world offers, fear, worry, anxiety and hate.  Who needs that? 

Salvation has to be by faith alone.  Once good works are introduced into the salvation process then it gets all chaotic and complicated.  It is no longer by faith alone but by faith and works and to say that is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.  Then you have to ask, why did Jesus come to die?  Didn't he take this burden from off our shoulders?  Didn't he carry it instead?   If we believe our salvation is determined by our works, it pretty much contradicts just about every doctrine in scripture spoken by Christ and written down by the Apostles. 

Think about this.  If our salvation is not secure how could Jesus say "they will never perish?"  (John 10:28) If we receive eternal life but then forfeited it thru sin, either by not doing what we should do or doing what we shouldn't do, will we not perish?   By doing so, don't we make Jesus words to be a lie, null and void?   Didn't he die for our sins, past, present and future?  I believe he did. 

I guess it really comes down to trust and commitment.  Jesus is calling us to do more than just believe in his existence.  He's calling us to put our trust in him, in his words and in his death in exchange for our sins.  That's it.  Even a child can understand this. 

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."  Romans 5:1

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is recokoned as righteousness."  Romans 4:5.

 

 

 

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Reply #101 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yes, I'm being saved by God's grace, I have been redeemed and am working out my salvation in fear and trembling. My salvation is nearer today and trusting in God I pray I will be saved.

Well I am saved.  I don't have to work for it and I liked I've showed many times here using scriptures we can "know".  In the Greek the word "know" that is used regarding salvation is "oida" and means "totally sure; without doubt." 

Again it is my strong contention that despite the claims of many sincere believers to the contrary Scripture clearly teaches that every person who is genuinely saved is eternally saved and secure.  We can never be in danger of losing the spiritual life given to us by God.  Romans 8:29-30 is maybe the clearest and most explicit presentation of this truth.  It says:

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predeestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." 

To justify means to make right with God.  It's a one time deal. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until that day of redemption; sort of like an earnest deposit on a loan.  God will come back and make good on this promise. 

The promise of final glory was not uncertain as far as Paul was concerned.  By putting the phrase "these He also glorified" in the past tense, Paul was telling us his own conviction that everyone whom God justifies is eternally secure.   No one, whom God foreknows, will fail to be predestined, calling them justified and later glorified. 

Perhaps instinctively, but consciously...I'm not so sure that's the case 100% of the time. Someone could do things without thinking of themselves.

well we're not dealing with exceptions here but generalities.  There's always an exception to every rule right?  So let's not get too nit pickey Lucas. 

From a Christian POV we ask ourselves...are we doing this for our own glory or are we doing it for God's glory?  If it's God's glory we really try not to take too much attention away from God giving him the credit and reason behind our giving whatever that may mean.  When I say "giving" it doesn't necessarily have to do with finances.  I do things on a regular basis for a couple of widows in my area so my giving of my time and talent is just as much giving as when I do something monatarily for them. 

 

Reply #102 from JoeUser Forums Top

Just this past week, a woman told me of a man, a "born again believer", who upon losing his son to suicide, has completely lost his faith and belief in God.

Then he wasn't a born again believer. Things like this show us where we are in the faith.   But who knows if he really lost his faith or just is in the grieving process and stumbled a bit?  His faith could have been very weak.  If so, God will strengthen him back and restore him as before.  This is where a strong brother or sister in the faith comes into play.   In many cases, their faith grows stronger.  Or...he may not have been saved in the first place.  I've known many people who had terrible tragedies and yet their faith remained even stronger than before.  I'm sure you do as well. 

I guess it just goes to show, you don't know what a teabag is made of until it gets very wet. 

I love how you bring these things up, as to prove your point, when you can't with scripture.  :grin:   My grandmother does this all the time to me only it has to do with a political debate.  When she gets cornered,  she'll tell me some tidbit scandal that is "going to come out soon" to prove her right about so and so.  It never does.   I'm still waiting for all that extra marital affair about Jeb Bush she told me years ago after Bush won the whole Florida debacle. 

 

 

 

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Reply #103 from Stardock Forums Top

His faith could have been very weak

How strong does it have to be?

Reply #104 from JoeUser Forums Top

Then he wasn't a born again believer

So no matter how strongly someone believes, no matter what their actions etc. that further demonstrate this, they're not a born again believer if at any point in their later lives for whatever reason they lose their faith?

Reply #105 from JoeUser Forums Top

The thought is that if someone is truly saved, they won't ever turn back on God.  Hence Calvin's "once saved, always saved" belief.  If you turn away, then you weren't really saved to begin with.

Reply #106 from JoeUser Forums Top

So no matter how strongly someone believes, no matter what their actions etc. that further demonstrate this, they're not a born again believer if at any point in their later lives for whatever reason they lose their faith?

being born again is like being born physically.  Once you're born, you're born.  That's it.  Just like you're physically born, there's no going back.  It's the same with the spiritual.  When you become born AGAIN there's no turning back.  To be born again, means to become one of God's children in the family of God.  We can't undo this.  Just like my children, no matter how bad they get or how much they disappoint me they are still my family.  Nothing changes that. 

That's why Paul wrote this:

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus." 

John wrote this about some of those they thought were born again but were not which could be like Lula's example:

"They went out from us, (lost their salvation?) but they did not really belong to us.  For if they had belonged to us they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

That's why I keep telling Lula, our perserverance and our works is evidence of our salvation.  We don't become saved by our works but our works prove us.   She's been taught by the RCC that you can lose your salvation (become unborn) and this is impossible just like it's impossible for us to be unborn physically. 

 

Reply #107 from JoeUser Forums Top

How strong does it have to be?

Just like a baby learns to walk, so too does a Christian learn how to walk in the faith.  We all learn to walk differently.  Just like some babies walk at 8 months, others at 10 months and even others at 18 months it's the same with the Christians in their spiritual walk.  Some go very slowly and crawl.  Some skip the crawling stage and go right into pulling themselves up and walking and others seem to learn to run almost as soon as they begin walking. 

For the Christian who is very weak, he needs extra support to be able to walk alone.  When something big like what Lula mentioned comes into his life, he gets knocked down hard and is hesitant to get back up again.  For the stronger Christian who has been walking longer, he knows how this works and gets right back on his feet again even during the roughest rocking of the boat.   I've seen some Christians weather some pretty rocky terrain but they keep at it trusting that God is with them.

Those that don't get  back up and show no interest in doing so, probably were not walkers in the first place. 

Reply #108 from Stardock Forums Top

I guess I should rephrase the question: How does anyone know how strong their faith has to be beforehand?

Reply #109 from Stardock Forums Top

I think it's disgusting that there's a banner for Scientology.

Reply #111 from JoeUser Forums Top

but they don't tell you their little secret.... they really don't have peace. It's external not internal. They work very hard for this peace

I'm going to assume you're saying this out of utter ignorance, because when it comes down to it - you're not them. I feel that you're applying your warped view of what internal peace really is. I find that sad KFC.

 

~A

Reply #112 from JoeUser Forums Top

well we're not dealing with exceptions here but generalities. There's always an exception to every rule right? So let's not get too nit pickey Lucas.

 

Perhaps, and by your own comment there would be an exception to everything, including that which falls within your beliefs. Right?

 

 

 

Reply #113 from JoeUser Forums Top

From a Christian POV we ask ourselves...are we doing this for our own glory or are we doing it for God's glory? If it's God's glory we really try not to take too much attention away from God giving him the credit and reason behind our giving whatever that may mean. When I say "giving" it doesn't necessarily have to do with finances. I do things on a regular basis for a couple of widows in my area so my giving of my time and talent is just as much giving as when I do something monatarily for them.

 

Either way KFC, you're doing it for yourself. You may cover it up with the claim that you're doing it in his name, but you are stilling beinf selfish as you're putting your desire to glorify God first. Or, at least up front. 

 

~A

Reply #114 from JoeUser Forums Top

I guess I should rephrase the question: How does anyone know how strong their faith has to be beforehand?

I don't know for sure that we do know.  That's why God tests our faith from time to time.  He does so to prove us.  It's not for his benefit but for ours.   The strongest and the weakest Christian go thru trials and tribulations.  Not only does this show us how strong or weak we are but it strengthens us for the next trial sure to come. 

We don't know what we're made of until we get tried.  It's like taking a course.  We don't know how much we've retained until we take a test.  The test shows us how much we've taken in. 

I think it's disgusting that there's a banner for Scientology.

huh? 

Perhaps, and by your own comment there would be an exception to everything, including that which falls within your beliefs. Right?

I'm not sure what you're getting at?  Like what? 

Either way KFC, you're doing it for yourself. You may cover it up with the claim that you're doing it in his name, but you are stilling beinf selfish as you're putting your desire to glorify God first. Or, at least up front

I know the diff before I became a Christian and afterwards.  Before, sure I might do a good deed once in a while but I was much more concerned with myself than others.  Now, I find that I'm much more willing to put myself on the back burner because I absolutely can't do enough for God and his glory.  It's a joy to do for others, not a burden like it was before.  I don't grumble; instead I look for opportunities to serve God. 

Geeze Lucas, why all the one liners? 

Reply #115 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Like what?

 

Mm, let me think about that. It could've been a random crossed wire after this weekend.

I know the diff before I became a Christian and afterwards. Before, sure I might do a good deed once in a while but I was much more concerned with myself than others. Now, I find that I'm much more willing to put myself on the back burner because I absolutely can't do enough for God and his glory. It's a joy to do for others, not a burden like it was before. I don't grumble; instead I look for opportunities to serve God.

Geeze Lucas, why all the one liners?

 

You know this can be true without finding God or a God. Not to boast or anything, but I actively volunteer. I don't do it for me, and I don't grumble. I could be wrong, but it's coming across as if those who do good deads supposibly in the name of God are doing it selflessly. That's not necessarily true; there's the likelyhood that they're doing it because they desire it.Think about it: to be selfish means to be doing something for ones desired goal, or own interests. some do it for the glory of God - that's their desire. Is that not selfish or self serving?

I'm not discounting what you've done, or pointing my finger at you and yelling "selfish," I'm just saying that to imply what I feel you're implying...is silly.

As per the one liners - I'm exhausted after a very, very long weekend, but I forced myself to get up today since I've work and class. I guess I'm just off a bit today.

Reply #116 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting AldericJourdain, reply 115
I could be wrong, but it's coming across as if those who do good deads supposibly in the name of God are doing it selflessly.

Well, I for one would not say that.  It is quite possible for Christians to have their priorities wrong.  We're no better than anyone else.

Quoting AldericJourdain, reply 115
Think about it: to be selfish means to be doing something for ones desired goal, or own interests. some do it for the glory of God - that's their desire. Is that not selfish or self serving?

Yes, it is, if said Christian has his own interests in mind rather than God's.

Reply #117 from Stardock Forums Top

Why?

Because Scientology has to be the most B.S. "religion" there is.

Reply #118 from Stardock Forums Top

I don't know for sure that we do know. That's why God tests our faith from time to time. He does so to prove us. It's not for his benefit but for ours. The strongest and the weakest Christian go thru trials and tribulations. Not only does this show us how strong or weak we are but it strengthens us for the next trial sure to come.

How many tests can one person endure? Some people have killed themselves because God tested them too many times.

Reply #119 from JoeUser Forums Top

How many tests can one person endure? Some people have killed themselves because God tested them too many times.

People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons.  God never gives us more than we can handle.  He says even in our testing he provides a way out.  Look at what Job endured yet, he did not take his own life.   God knew he was strong enough to handle it.   There are many examples for us of people who went thru hard trials both scriptually (look at Joseph in the book of Genesis or Paul-1 Cor 11-12) and in our everyday life yet perservered to see a brighter day.  The darkness always comes before the dawn.    

Most who take their lives do not even have a relationship with God.  They've tried everything else, drugs, alchohol, relationships, etc to curb the pain and don't give God a chance.  We should turn to God as our first response, not our last hope. 

I tell people to make sure they make those deposits (spiritually speaking)  so when it comes down to those trying days they will have something to withdraw from.  The problem is most don't bother making those deposits and when it gets bad, they have nothing to withdraw.  

 

 

Reply #120 from JoeUser Forums Top

Infidel (why did you pick that name?)  I just received this devo on my email today and thought it was very timely and helps answer your question:

A man had a grandfather clock. One day he felt sorry for the grandfather clock because it had a weight on it, and that weight was always pulling on the clock. The man said, “Oh, Mr. Clock, you’ve held this weight so long; I’m going to remove it and let you rest.” The clock protested, saying, “Don’t take that weight from me. That’s what keeps me going.” In the same way, the trials and tests of life are there for your endurance. They’re to keep you going, keep you trusting, keep you praying, and keep you depending upon God.

Reply #121 from JoeUser Forums Top

People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons.

What all those reasons boil down to is: God tested those people too many times.

Reply #122 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yes, it is, if said Christian has his own interests in mind rather than God's.

If serving God, giving glory to God, et al. is in their interest/desired goal - then yes - they're being selfish.Obviously their desired goal is to give glory to God, then that is still them serving their interests or goals.

 

Well, I for one would not say that. It is quite possible for Christians to have their priorities wrong. We're no better than anyone else.

 

You know, that is quite refreshing to hear.

Mind clarifying? I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what you mean, that or what I believe you're saying is accurate and I'm just unsure.

Because Scientology has to be the most B.S. "religion" there is.

 

Why is that? I've found it to be fairly valid; weird yeah, but no different than say mormanism, catholicism, taoism, etc.

 

Reply #123 from JoeUser Forums Top

A man had a grandfather clock. One day he felt sorry for the grandfather clock because it had a weight on it, and that weight was always pulling on the clock. The man said, “Oh, Mr. Clock, you’ve held this weight so long; I’m going to remove it and let you rest.” The clock protested, saying, “Don’t take that weight from me. That’s what keeps me going.” In the same way, the trials and tests of life are there for your endurance. They’re to keep you going, keep you trusting, keep you praying, and keep you depending upon God.

 

Interesting story. I've been reading this book that covers moving on from things in life, and this almost sounds like a analogy/parable for those who go through life still attached to things. They are so caught up in these incidents that if they are brought out of them - they panic. They've been "in" them so long, it becomes a security blanket.

 

Be well, ~Alderic

Reply #124 from JoeUser Forums Top

You know, that is quite refreshing to hear.

Mind clarifying? I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what you mean, that or what I believe you're saying is accurate and I'm just unsure

Christians are humans.  They're not perfect you know.  Remember the kid from Brown University who went to LIberty and found that out?  Obviously sometimes they slip up and do things for their own glory forgetting whom they really are working for.  That's the whole point behind that story in  Corinthians 3 of wood, hay & stubble in contrast to gold and silver. 

If serving God, giving glory to God, et al. is in their interest/desired goal - then yes - they're being selfish.Obviously their desired goal is to give glory to God, then that is still them serving their interests or goals.

that doesn't even make sense.  We're not selfish when we do things for God rather than ourselves.  For instance....I may really want to go shopping.  But instead I know my neighbor needs me to help her so I sacrifice my plans for hers.  The whole idea is to be dead to self and live for God. 

What all those reasons boil down to is: God tested those people too many times.

no, he only tests his own; those who belong to him.  Like I said, most who take their lives do not have a relationship with God.  If they did, they wouldn't have taken their lives knowing that God only is the giver and taker of life, not man.   God offers hope and they left this world hopeless.

 Those who don't belong to God belong to Satan.  There are two fathers.  One of this world and one in heaven.  Those who are not related to God (spiritually) belong to this world and the god of this world.  The god of this world whispers in the ears of his own "it's all about you."  Just like he die with Eve in the garden.  That's his favorite lie because it works so well. 

 

 

Reply #125 from JoeUser Forums Top

Why is that? I've found it to be fairly valid; weird yeah, but no different than say mormanism, catholicism, taoism, etc.

they are all different Lucas.  Mormanism isn't even close to Catholicism and Catholicism isn't close to taoism etc.  I agree with Infidel on this one.