Of course you do.

Thanks KFC.

I'm busy working on two moves...my own and my daughters! I'm back to up my mail, water my plants...and of course, check in with you!  

kfc writes:

Your insistance that "the born again believer" is saved by faith alone  is simply wrong thinking, false and unprovable.

The Douay Rheims has Romans 5:1 and 4:4-5 a little differently.

5:1, "Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, thorugh OUr Lord Jesus Christ." 

4:4-5  "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, yet believe in him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God."

In 5:1, note the stark difference in verb tense between your translation and the DR.

You use this past tense to shore up your idea of a one-time imputation of justification at the moment of an act of faith. But this argument is  quite naive.  Rather, Scripture teaches our justification is an ongoing process that will occur until the moment of our death and we will know we are saved when we get to pass through the heavenly gates. St.Paul uses "running the race" as the analogy. We don''t know for sure we've won it until we've actually crossed the finish line.

While Faith is absolutely necessary; it's but a starting point from which we appropriate our justification and live in righteousness  before God.  For Catholics, the starting point of our initial justification begins at our Baptism. As. Eph. 2:8-9, it's a gift of God and it enables us, by God's grace  to repent of our sins, and live out that faith through persevering in obedience (good works) to the teachings and commands of Christ.  

kfc writes:

No, you cannot absolutely know for sure you are going to Heaven....you, like every one else, upon your death will be before God at your judgement and only then will you "absloutely know" whether you are sanctified or not. Until then, we follow St.Paul's teaching and persevere in the faith "in fear and trembling" being obedient to all His commands. 

We can also prove that justification is an ongoing process by noting how St.Paul uses the word "justification" in reference to the future. Rom. 2:13 states, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." The context points to the final judgment when "God will render to each man according to what he has done" 2:6.

Jesus uses the future tense of the word justified in St.Matt. 12: 36-37, "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." So, here we are told that God holds our justification in abeyance until our judgment. Our justification is a process with a starting point and an end, of which only God knows.

kfc posts 66

"works" is a term that really bothers many Protestants.  

Works are a component of Salvation. If one does evil works (sins) and dies unrepentant, then one won't pass judgement and enter into Heaven.

St.James 2 deals with the fact that faith alone is insufficient for salvation if divorced from a life of "good works" . "Good works" are prayers, almsgiving and obedience to keeping God's commands.

1 St.John 3: 21-24 explains that Justification involves both faith and obedience.   

You do realize this verse says the exact same thing, right?  5:1 also says the same thing.

Back on page 3 (comment 35) I reminded you of the story of the two robbers who were crucified with Jesus.  You completely ignored my point there, namely that the robber had no time to do any good works yet was saved anyway (it's in Luke).

Then you asked me if I knew better than St. James, "one of Christ's chosen Apostles."  I would like to pick the conversation back up here, if you will.  Does St. James know better than Jesus?  Do St. James' writings have the authority to refute the words of Jesus himself?

Hardly.

yes I do.  How can you tell me I cannot know when I do know?   Jesus told me so many times:

"Truly, Truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes on him that sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life."  John 5:24

How much clearer do you want Lula?  It's pretty clear.   So do I listen to you or him? 

How about when he said this:

"Whosoever believed in him should not perish but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.  He that believes is not condemned but he that believes not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."  John 3

Again...how much more do you need to believe? 

How about when he said this:

"Let not yor heart be troubled you believe in God believe also in me......I go away and prepare a place for you."  John 14:1-2

It sounds like a done deal to me. He's going to prepare a place for us.  He doesn't expect that we are going to lose the gift they were given.    Nothing about works here.  Salvation hinges on FAITH ALONE!  And besides all that we can't lose our salvation.  That's why he keeps giving us this assurances saying things like "let not your hearts be troubled" or "my peace I leave with you"  or "my yoke is easy, my burden is light."   

He's directly opposing the religious leaders.  He knew that the religious leaders of his day and continuing into our day were and  still are robbing the people of their peace in all this.  That's what's happened to you Lula.  The religious leaders you follow are telling you that you can never be sure of your salvation so keep on doing to make sure.  Keep on sending us your money.  Keep on going to church.  Stay in "our" church.  Baptize your babies.  Indoctrinate them early.   Don't skip a Sunday.  You may go to hell if you're not careful. 

Hogwash! 

It used to be for many many years that if a Catholic walked into a Protestant church it was considered a sin.  My in-laws would never ever step inside a Protestant church.  I wonder what they were afraid of?  We went many times to church with them to make them happy but they wouldn't go to ours when they came to visit us.  Not once in 20 years. 

That's exactly what I was thinking.  It says the same thing. 

It's no diff Lula.  If it were, or we had a question, all we'd have to do is go back to the Greek and read it there.  I have a Gk NT.  I can read it in the original language.  I'm quite confident that the KJV (which is what I'm usuing) is quite ok. 

no... works are EVIDENCE of salvation. 

Perhaps more relevantly, he had no time to sin - he died in a state of grace after confessing to Jesus. Maybe God is lenient to those who don't have an opportunity to be good. But that doesn't mean he's not all vengeance and justice towards those who have no excuse for their sins.

I'm not sure how you can come away from the bible thinking God has any patience for the self-righteous, the arrogant and those Pharisees who think their faith alone is sufficient. It would be nice to say that He's not that cruel, but the evidence is there if you choose to believe it. 

You've got it wrong.  The Pharisees were arrogant and self righteous, yes...but it was because of their  own righteous works that made them so.  They were scoffing at Christ because Christ wasn't doing what they were teaching.  He was doing everything wrong and against their traditions.  The Pharisees had a long list of do's and don'ts.  Remember the story about Jesus and his disciples not participating in their cleansing rituals?   Remember the prayer of the Pharisee who prayed "oh God thank you that I'm not a sinner like the rest?"  He was working his way to heaven, or so he thought. 

In contrast, the humble servant prayed "oh God I'm just a sinner, save me" was the one who was justified.  Not the Pharisee with his many works.  

One relied on himself, the other on his faith in Christ. 

 That's why Christ said, your righteousness has to EXCEED the righteousness of the Pharisees and the people gasped!  How can they be more righteous than the Pharisees?  Impossible.  Christ was saying that we have to rely on Him and HIS righteousness not our own.  The Pharisees were relying on themselves and their own righteousness and they would find out later (when they died)  that wasn't good enough. 

There are three different imputations (a banking term meaning adding to one's account)  in scripture.  One was when Adam sinned and his sin was imputed to us.  The second was when our sin was imputated to Christ when he took it on himself.  The third imputation is His righteousness.  He made a swap.  He took our sin, we took on His righteousness.  He covered us with his righteousness which is a picture of God covering Adam and Eve in the garden after their sin.  In order to do so, blood was shed.   

You're talking like a Catholic Cacto.  Are you?

P.S.  Our faith doesn't come from us.  Even our faith is a gift from God.  We come to him empty handed.  He fills us up. 

Don't you ever get gifts for being a good housekeeper and mother?

A comet

Isn't there a family resemblance? Maybe he looks more like his mom.

Yeah, and then Flynt countersued because Falwell violated copyright laws.

IQ OF SPAM

Protestants are drawn to the example of Christ's recognition to the pentitent Thief as proof text in their support for Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone.  

St. James doesn't contradict or refute Christ words to the pentinent Thief.

The pentitent Thief, just before dying on the cross next to Jesus although no longer able to amend his evil life, was contrite and by his own words that came no doubt from his heart, expressed faith, hope and charity. Those words were in effect , his good works.

Look closely at the incident of the Pentitent's Thief's preparing for his final moments before his death.  Both thieves reproach Jesus is some measure St.Matt. 27:44, and eventually the pentitent thief rebukes the unrpepentant one and does this in the face of all the others jeering at Christ telling Him to save Himself. Jesus taught long before this "whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in Heaven."

Next, the Pentitent Thief asks the other thief, "Don't you fear God?" Doesn't that say something about him? In Acts and Romans we read that those who fear God are blessed with salvation.

In St.Luke 23:41, the Pentitent Thief tells the other one that both of them are "punished justly". This shows an inner sense of justice that he is able to convict himself of sin before God. He says  of Jesus, "this Man has done nothing" realizing the goodness of Jesus. Next he says to Jesus, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Where did the Thief obtain this knowledge if he had not ever heard of Jesus before this as Jesus was silent up until this speaking only 7 short times. The Thief seemed to know Christ's mission as He preached it.

The Thief initiates the discussion. He admits his guilt. As God had blessed Cornelius in Acts 10 for his fear and devotion, so Jesus blessed the thief saying, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

There is nn warrant for  you to impose a "faith alone" with no good works theology in this unusual incident. It seems to me from careful reading that the thief already had faith in God as demonstrated by his fear of God that he expressed to the other thief. He now had to put that faith into action (good works) and he couldn't do that by using his arms and legs, so to speak, but he did so by reaching out to Jesus in perfect contrition of his passed sins, however limited in the way he was doing so.

Had he not reached out, he would have been condemned just like the unrepentant theif who remained silent.

The Pentitent thief is a story of coming to Jesus in repentance of sin, seeking to be forgiven, albeit in this case a last minute one and not an example of salvation by faith alone without works.  

 but he does refute justification by faith alone.

KFC,

At this point, it must pride and arrogance that has you so cocksuredly declaring that you're absolutely sure that you are saved.

You need reminding that even the demons hear and believe Him.

Also believing in Jesus infers doing what Jesus commanded be done. You don't believe in the Real Presence of St.John 6.

A person with Divine faith is on his way to eternal life, but he can choose to give it up or lose it by continuing doing evil works. (sins).

Just this past week, a woman told me of a man, a "born again believer", who upon losing his son to suicide, has completely lost his faith and belief in God.

That's why we have to strive... to persevere in faith...not take it for granted or your sort of cocksuredness.

Care to expound on that?

Expand?

Nope, I meant expound; it means to set forth or state in detail, or explain/interpret. Hence I was asking him to explain what he meant by merely saying what he said.

Be well, ~Alderic

Expand 2a: to express fully or in detail.

You could have chosen the simpler one, but no, you had to show off.

Well, someone had to disagree with my statement.

But think about it this way: what reason do you have to do the selfless thing?  Perhaps to be seen as "good" by the people around you?

Ultimately, our actions do have a root in selfishness.  We all want something, even if it is to be recognized as a selfless person.  It's so ingrained in our personalities and how we make decisions that much of the time we don't even realize it.

Actually, if you read the text, the thief never asked to be forgiven - which is interesting considering most churches have some variant of that "sinners prayer" that you say to be saved.

Hmm... of all Scripture, John 3:16 is the most widely known verse, yet you seem to have forgotten it.  It says "whoever believes" will be saved, not "whoever believes and does good works" will be saved.

KFC POSTS:

Catholics that I know have a wonderful peace much like Romans 5:1 describes as we are being justified. Trusting Christ, we have moral assurance of salvation though not an absolute one. He promised us eternal life if we love Him and keep His commands. We are quite capable of throwing His love away and turning from Him ruining our opportunity for salvation.

Yes, I'm being saved by God's grace,  I have been redeemed and am working out my salvation in fear and trembling. My salvation is nearer today and trusting in God I pray I will be saved.

Yes, panentheistic Buddhists also have a "wonderful peace."  They're not saved though.

Wasn't showing off at all;  expound just happened to be the word that came to mind.

Be well, ~Alderic

Perhaps instinctively, but consciously...I'm not so sure that's the case 100% of the time. Someone could do things without thinking of themselves. That biological "feel good," emotion could merely be just that, biological. Hence, the instinct toward altruism.

Be well, ~Alderic

It can still be considered to have a root in selfishness though - you will benefit from something that benefits you directly, but also likely have at least some benefit (but not to as great a degree) from something that benefits someone else. Whether from a feel good factor, or just the knowledge that they're better off. For example I would be happy to know my relatives are happy, and it would make me sad if they were sad. Financially, you could effectively model this that I would be indifferent to losing $x if they gained $y for situations where that money would be of equal benefit to the two people. More effectively, you could look at it in terms of actual benefit where I would prefer to suffer a loss of x 'benefit' if it meant the person would gain y 'benefit'. That is, I might prefer a situation that caused me to lose benefits worth ~$100 if it meant they gained benefits worth ~$300, meaning I'd have a 1:3 ratio, or 0.333. IMO to really be selfless I would have to have that figure above 1. Modelling this precisely is of course near-impossible since beneffits will be subjective between people and not readily comparable. However you can still get some sort of measure by just using money - that is I might be happy with losing $1 if it meant my parents gained $3.

I notice you say "Catholics that you know."  That's very telling Lula.  Because you don't have this peace yourself.  If you did you would have given us your experience in having this peace.   Admit it.  Obviously you can't have it if you don't believe that you're eternally secure.  

That's the whole point here.  That's the whole point in Christ telling us that while the religious leaders were piling heavy burdens of works and guilt upon the people Christ was saying  "Follow me, I"ll set you free."   You haven't been set free Lula.  You're still weighing heavy under the guilt and works your religious leaders are putting on you.

I saw my very good Catholic Father in Law die a very fearful death.  He was a deacon in his RCC and yet on his deathbed he was scared out of his mind.  While his six kids were around his deathbed he grabbed my husband  around the neck (the only born again believer) and with his dying breath he said "help me."   It totally changed my husband from that day on. 

Don't tell me about the RCC and peace Lula.  I've seen the damage first hand. 

but they don't tell you their little secret.... they really don't have peace.  It's external not internal.  They work very hard for this peace.