He's talking about another conversation that I had with him.  In that conversation he demanded that I put on the same spiritual playing field a person who spent his whole life, scandal free, working for God, bold in his witness even to the point that the world hated him with another person who neither showed nor gave God glory for his life's work and was not scandal free.   From my POV, I saw one as getting glory from God and another glory from the world.  Jesus said about the latter "they have their reward."  We either work for God and his glory or we work for man and man's glory. 

The media seemed to proved this out by their lack of and total all out coverage from one to the other. 

the bible says the spirit bears witness.  So while you're right in a sense in another the spirit gives us peace and unity with other believers.  There are many out there who are PROfessing Christians not POsessing Christians.  There is a diff.  But just like Peter spotted Simeon in the book of Acts as one who was a pretender I think the spirit gives us that discernment as well.  These professors may be able to fool the world and even some of the weaker Christians but the closer we get to God the easier it gets to recognize those that are not his.  It's like you know who your own brother is and who is not. 

I've met other believers and in an instant knew they were godly men and women.  You can see Christ all over and thru them.  I've met others that I wasn't so sure and after watching them over a period of time either have to say they are either very weak in their faith or are professors of the faith only.  We are all so diff.  Some take a while to walk straight and sure and others start running the race of faith immediately. 

I remember having a conversation with my grandmother about a certain president.  She said,  to appease me, that he was a Christian.  I said, very early on in his presidency that I didn't see any evidence that he was.  She would point to his going to church with a bible under his arm.  I told her that meant nothing.  I was looking for integrity for one thing.  There are many people in church that are not Christians but only pretend to be like Simeon.    Only God knows for absolute sure but Jesus said you know a tree by the fruit it bears. 

In all things, spiritual or physcial,  the closer you are to the truth, the quicker you can spot the lie. 

Right, this is what I meant.  Generally speaking you can tell to a certain degree.

However, you don't know for certain either.  A lot of seemingly charismatic people are actually involved in the whole panetheism/panentheism thing and just deceived.  Just take a look at people like Rob Bell - he pastors one of the largest and most successful churches in the nation, but he is nothing but a false teacher.

So maybe the question should be, how can you tell how much of a balance they have with the man upstairs?  Do they build with good materials that will survive the fire, or will they merely escape and suffer a great loss?

Yes, things made of wood, hay, and straw are nothing and things made of precious metals and stones are everything. After all, who needs a well insulated house, a roof over their heads, and feed for their livestock when they have crafted wonderful jewelry, perhaps a crown for their king, or maybe even a gold jewel-encrusted cross for their church. What better way to glorify the name of God than through shiny objects? You know, if I were religious, I'd hope God valued the works that have no "material" to show for them, like wounds healed, smiles and laughter given freely to those who need them most, and the end result of a much needed meal (ok, there is "material" to show for that last one but not material that we wanna see).

Also, I say cover that hut of wood and straw in mud and maybe it won't burn before the crown melts.

The materials mentioned there are not physical, it's a metaphor for the quality of the works which a person performs for Christ.

exactly and how do you know this?  Just like you know he's false; a wolf in sheep's clothing, so too can you recognize the true sheep.  To me the pastors of the biggest churches most of the time are not the ones I think of when I think of the most Godly men out there.

no, if you read the last line you can see that even though all his works were burned up because they were inferior he still entered heaven...not the best way to enter heaven but heaven can't be bought.   That was the whole point with Martin Luther leaving the RCC.  People were being told they had to buy their way in via indulgences. 

The best thing one can hear upon entering the Kingdom of Heaven is "well done good and faithful servant."  So this passage you're referring has to do with works and the rewards that follow them. 

I've got a feeling I already know your answer, given my experience in...debating with you, but I'm still interested.I'd like to pose a series of questions to you KFC.

What if there was no God? What if everything the Bible (etc.) said was false/man made myth?

Be well, ~Alderic

jerry falwell was "scandal free???????????????" are you kidding me?

and in our conversations...you did claim to "know" for other people...as you do here as well. you pass judgement on other people and on various religious leaders.

i take nothing back. if you and charles had a sim. conversation as you and i did...then fine...but my confusion over the annonymous person you were referring to aside, i don't take anything i said back. you are stating many of the same things here as you did in our conversation in the "goodbye michael and farrah" thread.

but don't worry...like charles and others, you can have my words wiped from joeuser with a simple request as i am the source of all evil according to joeuser. and of course, they won't let me write anything on my own blog...i guess that was just an island dog taunt. 

He's right, Fallwell had issues:

http://www.lushforlife.com/news/jerry-falwell-involved-in-pornography-scandal/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10188427

What if there is? 

I've read the bible many many times and do on a daily basis.  I can tell you with absolutely no doubt that there can be no way this can be made up without going into much detail.  But there's just no way. 

I know his wife, his kids and his grandkids.  He was a devoted father and husband.  That's what I was referring to.  There was no drug, alcohol, extra marital affairs etc that the media could find so they looked for every little thing they could to take him down because Jerry was outspoken and not PC.  By a long shot.  He had just as big and emotional funeral as MJ did.  He was very loved by thousands of people.  But it wasn't televised was it? Nope, not even a portion of it.    But I did see it and it was very touching and appropriate.  Even his enemies in the political realm came out and said that even tho they had disagreements with him he was always gracious and kind to them. 

it sounds like you have issues...I have no idea what you're referring to here. 

I only wipe out words if they are vulgar and since you've been pretty clean in your insulting of me, they will stand. 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME LUCAS? 

I thought you were smarter than that.  You just lost alot of brownie points with me over spreading lies here.  Didn't I tell you no to do that and we'd be fine? 

This isn't true.  You had to go to some Falwell bashing site to prove your point?  This never happened.  This is trash. 

Show me something that is verifiable....you can't believe everything out there on the net...or didn't you know this? 

He was scandal free and still is. There's nothing out there on him.    Show me something with substance Lucas.  Don't give me trash. 

Even Larry Flynt wouldn't buy what you just put here.  He came out with nothing but praise for Jerry after Jerry died even though they were bitter enemies for a time.  The reason?  Because Larry made a very vulgar sexual comment about Jerry and his own mother in one of his porn magazines.  Falwell sued. 

Actually, there could be; Human imagination is a fascinating and powerful thing, just take a look at the things people come up with.

>_> I guess I should have clarified the post or at least made sure it was all there before I hurried off for lunch. Mm, well, you live and learn. My bad KFC. As far as I know he looks damn near perfect, almost jesus like, but I highly doubt it just because no one can be perfect. While I disagreed with him to a large extent, he did seem to be a good man.

Again, sorry for the haste and mistake.

Be well, ~Alderic

I understand but that's not what we're dealing with here.  We're dealing with 40 diff men who wrote over a period of 1500 years all from diff walks of life.  They were not in cahoots and most didn't know each other.  A few were contemporaries but that was here and there.  When the bible all got put together, as we know it now, much later it fit perfectly.  Just like a glove.  It all meshed.  How can that be? 

 You know as well as I that if we had even 10 JU'sers getting together on any one issue we'd have 11 diff opinions.  That's not the case here at all.  The 40 diff writers of the scriptures were in complete harmony on all the issues.  Many times the  writers of the OT had no idea exactly what they were writing because it didn't pertain to their time but later, even centuries later,  it made perfect sense when it came true.   It all fell together. 

ok, live and learn. 

Well he wasn't perfect, but he tried his best not to give his enemies any fire to play with.  He tried really hard because he knew he had the spotlight on him.  He took the brunt for the whole Christian community because he had wide broad shoulders.  He tried his best to be the Godly man he was. 

Much the same way the media is going after Palin is the same way they went after Jerry.  When you put yourself out there in the forefront it comes with the territory I guess.  He wasn't afraid to speak up.  He was brash, outspoken and blunt at times giving the media lots of soundbites.   Sometimes he did apologize for speaking before thinking. 

Mmm, not all issues if I remember correct. Even then, you have the clarency edits. I just can't fathom that this all happene; I'm trying, but im not getting anywhere.

Indeed.

Well not exactly.  Salvation has nothing to do with works.  That's what this blog is about.   We can not earn our way into heaven.  Eph 2:8-9 is pretty clear  so that no one can boast. 

But AFTER salvation works are very important when it comes to the reaping of rewards.  That's another issue.  The bible speaks of earning five diff crowns.  It's like being able to bring something substantial to God when we see him face to face instead of standing there empty handed. 

Our works will be tried to see what they are made of.  Did we do our good deeds for ourselves, to make us look good or did we do these works to give God the glory and make him look good? 

There was a joke going around for a while that went like this:

A rich man went to heaven and met St. Peter at the Gate.  He was happy to have made it that far because Jesus said it would be hard for a rich man to enter heaven.  Peter gave him the heavenly tour showing him all the lovely mansions bigger than he ever dreamed on earth. He was quite happy to be in heaven.   As Peter kept walking with him along the road the rich man noticed the homes weren't quite so big.  They were continuously getting smaller.  

The further they walked the smaller the homes got.  Then they took a turn and went down a street that had only tar paper shacks.  When they stood in front of one of them, Peter said:

"Here you go.  This is your new heavenly home." 

"But, but..." the rich man replied.  "What about those lovely mansions I saw when I first entered the gate?  Can't I have one of those?" 

"Sorry," said Peter.  "This is the best we could do with what you sent us." 

This goes with the reward system.  Jesus said for us not to lay our treasures up here on earth where moth does destroy but to lay our treasures in heaven which will be eternal. 

PS.  Tithing was commanded for the servant under the OT law.  The child of God under grace in the NT chooses to give out of the abundance of his heart.  Tithing limits the believer where choosing to give places no limits on the believer. 

I understand but you have to read it and spend time in it to get it.  You just can't will this to happen.  So it makes sense that you're not getting anywhere. 

They way you word it, it still reeks of buying your way into heaven, just with brown-nosing instead of money.

Oh I know, and like I've mentioned - I've read the bible and still read it. Not as in depth as I once did, but I read it. I also tend to read other religious texts. They can be, from a literature and anthropological point of view, fascinating things.

well maybe I'm not being clear.  This has nothing to do with money at all.   You do nothing to earn your way into heaven.  Let me quote Eph 2:8-9 because I'm thinking you didn't look it up. 

"For by grace are you saved thru faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast." 

Does that make it clearer?   Is throwing in the reward system messing you up?  Grace is unmerited favor.  We do nothing to desrve it but he gives us grace anyway. 

You're fooling yourself here.  When you do something for someone out of empathy are you telling me it doesn't make you feel good to do goodwill for another?  You just do it with no feeling at all? 

No, I think you're being plenty clear, being good won't get you into heaven. Apparently, we're all miserable, horrible little beings undeserving of any mercy our theoretical creator might have; but if we just believe he exists, he'll give us the mercy we so dreadfully don't deserve. We can't "buy" or "brown nose" our way into heaven, but it might get us a better spot to watch all the unbelievers burn.

I've often thought this myself.  Left to ourselves, we will always make a choice that is selfishly motivated.

Even if the choice is to purposely do the selfless thing, it ultimately has a selfish motive: we want to feel good about ourselves.

I disagree.

ok good.  But it goes against what just about every religion known to man teaches.  They all seem to be teaching a works based religion and from a biblical POV that's just not true. 

well that's a pretty dismal way of looking at things.  Who said anything about watching unbelievers burn?  I don't think that's going to happen.  In fact, I'm sure of it. 

What you're not understanding in all this is how holy God is.  And how unholy we are.  To reconcile the two something needs to happen.  It's like light and darkness.  There is no relationship with light and darkness.  One has to overpower the other.  They can't co-exist.

That's where the belief comes in.  Belief in the fact that he made the reconciliation for us.  So it's a matter of belief and acceptance of what he did for us out of a great love God has for mankind.