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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

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Reply #51 Top
Almost all people you'll find online to play games are cheaters and/or jerks. It is only fun if you have some good friends that are into this kind of gaming. So shun the Multiplayer for all I care. My friends and I can play it at our houses or in a LAN house sharing some cold pizza and beer!
Reply #52 Top
I've played in a dozen or so Civ 4 games with random people. All of them are set to be fast paced and you never get them completed. Doesn't bother me a bit that this one only has singleplayer. In fact, I'd rather have more in an expansion versus giving us multiplayer.

Traditional 4x games just take too long to have much multiplayer appeal.
Reply #53 Top
As a soley single-player gamer (in computer games at least) Frogboy makes perfect sense to me.

Incidentally funkman2000, I think Ghandi gets so much flak because of the whole smug pacifist thing, it raises irrational hated in others
Reply #54 Top
"AI in Beta 5 which previews and beta testers have argued is "very hard" was largely rewritten because it was considered by us to be inadequate. It was hard but not smart."

Has the AI in GC2 been configured to "make mistakes" ?
Reply #55 Top
Has the AI in GC2 been configured to "make mistakes" ?

On the lower levels, yes.
Reply #56 Top
Just piling on here: I don't care about multiplayer in a TBS game, either. If, indeed, a choice had to be made between ANY of the single player features and multiplayer, then toss out multiplayer. Good call, Stardock.

edit: preloading 63% complete. Hee-hee! *rubs hands gleefully*
Reply #57 Top
I agree 99.9% with no multiplayer for most games directed at single player gamers. Gawd knows RTW might have been sooo much better if the AI of that game had been worked on more than adding a multiplayer game feature to it.

I also look at it this way. I see many that think a game should almost last forever. Well some single player games do, Civilization comes to mind here, Alpha Centauri, Colonization 95 just to name a few that are still great games to this day and mainly because the single player experience is so well done. But, the other thing is if you get MONTHS of gaming pleasure out of the single player experience for $39.99 then you got your moneys worth and shouldn't expect anything more. But, i'm pretty sure with Galciv II just like Galciv I that's going to go way past the 2 months period and well into the future.

Let's face it all games get boring over time, but, still when they are really good later on down the years we can and do go back to them and play them again. I still play some old commodore 64 games "War of the Lance" that was great back then and is still great today. But, when you have games that give you only a few days to a weeks worth of fun and then tossed off the hard-drive never to return, then there's your crappy games without any kind of longevity at all ala Rome Total Crap War. (I still play and love Medieval Total Best War though)

I could live easily without any game ever having a mutliplayer online feature. The only mutliplayer I would ever vote for is PBEM, but, that too I can live without. In todays hectic world and fast paced living, there's just not that kind of time anymore like when I was a teenager and had all the time in the world to do my thing. But, at 13 that thing even then wasn't so much gaming, it was GIRLS!!!! lol Games can get you off, but, not like a GIRL CAN!! hehe

I applaud you Stardock devs for realizing what should be important in your games. And offering up optional mutiplayer in expansions sounds fine by me. I suppose if you can afford it then do it at your liesure. I bought your first game without question and I'm usually very picky about what games I will buy and even waiting until they are bargain bin prices of less than $20, but, I preordered this game just like you were my brother who would NEVER LET ME DOWN! heh
Reply #58 Top
I too agree with Brad's comments. I play many games online, but certain games just don't have the appeal there, TBS games being at the front. The only form of multiplayer I do wish that Gal Civ II had is Hotseat. It's the only multiplayer I play in turn-based games (with my old buddy/current college roommate) and it can be great fun. I've played hotseat in every Civ game that's supported it, MoO2, HoMM2-4... I love this mode. But playing games like this with some random person off the internet sound like an exercise in frustration.

This obsession some developers have with online gaming really bothers me, actually. Because of it, there are almost no more good, story-focused RPGs or adventure games coming out for the PC, maybe 1-2 really good ones a year, if that, and even then they're usually inferior to the gamer of yesteryear. Give me a Planescape: Torment or a Fallout over a Neverwinter Nights any day. Give me The Longest Journey over the next third-person "action adventure" jumpfest. Give me good writing (and metric tons of it), good story, and other such fluff over the ability to be taunted by some random jackass over the internet.
Reply #59 Top
I would gladly trade any Multiplayer for tactical battles. Even a limited tactical battles much like planet battles. Options that would add bonus and drawbacks. The best multi-player boardgame is chess, live it is judo. I am probably a little bias though! I prefer single player 4X.

.JG.
Reply #60 Top
I did not read any posts save for the one above, even title one. All I have to say just from the title is...


BRAVO!!!

I really hate multiplayer. It is so often just a ridiculously stupid joke, not a fun, strategical game. Those FPS multiplayer games? I would rather go skip some rocks (honestly). The RPG genre has turned basically MMO, and it is heartbreaking for a true fan. Thank God for Oblivion.

This game also!
Reply #61 Top
Just remember that Chess is not dead and it could be looked at as a MP/PBEM game that is on a board instead of a computer screen.

I also agree with the way MP online goes. I would add that many act like babbies along with cheating.

For these reason is why I like doing PBEMs. I have patience. LANs and Direct IPs could also work for an expansion pack.
Reply #62 Top
I have to agree for the most part. Though me and a few of my friends would like nothing mor than to be able to sit here and enjoy the game (in its entierty, cut seens text and all) for 12+ hours to finish out a game. 2 human players against the rest. the GalCiv series has earned its perma spot on my hard drive.

Though i do think it would be great if it had a LAN section. I dont care about net play but i play every game i own on a LAN or at parties and such.
Reply #63 Top
I do wish that Gal Civ II had is Hotseat.


Technically, it does, the devs just haven't given us a way to access it. So says Frogboy somewhere, and if anyone knows, he does. He said that he wanted to talk with the other devs to discuss how (if?) to make it available as a regular part of the game.
Reply #64 Top
The direct quote:

Actually there is a way to play hot-seat in the released version. But it's unofficial. I'll talk to the team on how to officially document it.


Not to nag, but I want that, if it's doable
Reply #65 Top
Personally I don't really give a jot for MP. I play SP almost exclusively.

Tried MP in the past, the attraction wore off pretty fast.

If I want to game with other people, it won't be sitting with my nose in a computer screen, it will be sitting ata a table with a board, or cards, or a good old fashion PnP RPG. Computer games are for me, on my time, on my terms. i can play the game at three AM when everyone else is asleep, I don't have to sit there twiddling my thumbs while someone else spends 20 minutes fine tuning his settings, and I don't have to deal with random jerks online.

Yes there is a healthy market for MP games, the success of various MP focused games is evidence of that. The mistake the MP crowd makes is to assume that the reverse is not true (i.e. they assume that SP gaming is dead). That is simply not so, a large number of players also play SP.

Sometimes the MP player also does some SP, or an SP player does some MP. Sometimes you have a player that will only play MP. And sometimes you will have a player - like me - that plays exclusively SP. Different Strokes and all that.

Both are significant markets. Stardock recognized that SP is a significant market, and realized that their game would be better by not bothering with the MP element. Yes some gamers will be unhappy they don't have MP, but for this type of game, it is a MUCH smaller number than may have been unhappy with the sacrifices made in the SP game for MP.

You can't please everyone.

I personally think the decline in the SP game market has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with perception. Developers have decided that MP is the most important market, and so have focused on it to the detriment of SP.

Its like the poblems with movies last year. Does no one want to see movies any more? No, of course not. its just that the vast majority of what Hollywood put out was garbage. (Plus of course with the price of movies, and the quality of home theatre, people are willing to wait for movies to come out on DVD, but that isn't important to this discussion).

But Stardock reported a lot of first day interest in the game, and I know at least two people interested in picking it up at retail and aren't concerned about the lack of MP, so it looks like the market is there, if you are willing to make the effort for a good SP game. I suspect that they were right though, if they had tried to make a game for everyone the result would have been too weak to really make anyone happy (i.e. SE IV is meant as MP; its AI is incredibly lame and thus to have an even vaguely interesting game you need other players - but MP strategy games take FOREVER that it is unlikely the games will ever actually be finished).

You can make a good SP-MP game, but it takes a LOT more effort, time, and money. If you don't have the resources for that, its better to just focus on one. You'll probably have a better and more successful product in the end.

So for me, Stardock made the right choice. If this was meant as an exclusively MP game, I wouldn't be here, but other people would. For a 4X same strategy game though, I think - and what they said matches - that the market for a predominantly MP game is MUCH smaller than the market for SP.
Reply #67 Top
I'm going to say that I DO appreciate Multiplayer in a game, though I can live without it ONLY if the game's campaign, depth, and replayability are very good. Sounds like this is that kind of game. However, I think it can add a lot more excitement to a game to have it included. No matter how great the AI is in a game like this, it can NEVER compare to the challenge and excitement of playing a real live human being, in all their craftiness. That's something that I'll miss in this game if it never comes out with a multiplayer mode.

I can see the validity of Frogboy's remarks, they make sense and are intelligent and reasoned out, but despite all that, they don't change the fact that playing against a human is always more challenging and fun than the AI (well almost always, if skill levels are remotely similar)...

Either way I think this is a fantastic game from everything I'm hearing and have seen from the first one and I look forward to hopefully getting the copy that I preordered a month ago, tomorrow at Gamestop (over 3 days late)
Reply #68 Top
I've read through and I understand the sentiment against adding MP capability. But I still think it would be worth doing.
To me, games really only have longevity if they allow players to directly compete. My crowd is still playing Space Empires 4 which was released 5 years ago simply because we can all get together online and play. We will buy SE5 site unseen simply because of all the fun we've all had with the previous game.

The number of people playing Civ4 online was also an eye-opener for me. I didnt expect much from a TBS game on Gamespy, but there are quite a few people out there at all times. That means that there IS a market for TBS MP games. But the trick is to provide parameters that make sure its interesting (smaller and less time intensive scenarios or settings).

One thing I found interesting in the original post is that it is mentioned that polls were conducted on whether or not MP should be core feature. Were the polls conducted on the Stardock forums? If so, then those polls are heavily biased because the vast majority of people playing GalCiv1 obviously dont feel the need for MP. I know my crowd all experimented with GC1, but eventually lost interest. I'm sure if you asked the same poll on a site like the SE4 Play by Web forums, you'd get a completely different result because that forums base is that of MP TBS 4X games (can I get any more acronyms in there?).

Finally, the biggest draw for MP capability to me is to maintain viable strategy discussions. By that I mean that people can debate strategy all day long, but there is no real way to ever put theory into practice. So people can all come up with their own 'killer' strategies that might be absolute crap against another human, but can work against an AI. So, the strategy debates are always a little bit silly when no one can ever 'call you' on your strat. There is simply no basis for comparison in a SP only environment.

So, FWIW, put me down as a request for the MP expansion. I'm not sure how many groups like mine exist out there, but its a core of about 6 people who all play TBS games and of all of us, I'm probably the only one to think seriously about getting GC2. And our crowd has played them all...Civ3 MP, Civ4 MP, SE4 MP, SE3 MP (hotseat), MOO2 MP, attempted MOO3....utter crap, Imperialism 2 MP and the list goes on. If one of us gets and likes a game, we usually talk the rest into getting it so we can all play. Without that capability, its not something most will consider.

Thanks for reading and good luck however you decide to end up with it!
Reply #69 Top
Turn based games don't work well as multiplayer because you have to wait too long, unless you make a game that has short turns and a time limit.

I agree that it was better to invest the development effort into better AI than in a feature that hardly anyone would use.
Reply #70 Top
I've played a few PBEM tbs games that were pretty good, but all of them had to make tradeoffs that hurt the single player game. I'd rather the game be designed for single player myself, and if there were a multiplayer mode make it in such a way that it doesn't hurt single player play.
Reply #71 Top
I have yet to understand why designing a game for MP and SP should harm the SP game at all. The only reason I can think that this would occur is if the designer then took shortcuts with aspects of the AI knowing that ultimately a human person will always be a match in terms of quality versus a ai one. Sure you're always get the twits in MP - but lets just focus on the small select groups of friends and you can have a fantastic experience.

I'd love to see MP built into GC II - to experience player made designs and empires. The pitboss setup with Civ IV is as good a model as any. Look at Stars!, Dominions 2 - these are all excellent turn based games that work well.

I do doubt whether the game could now have MP built into it - we know the Civ IV designers made it very clear that building MP from the bottom up was critical to the MP sucess. Having played the various incantations of Civ IV MP - I do think they pretty much got it right - if they got it wrong it was implementing a peer to peer model as opposed to a client/server. Makes the whole connectivity way more complicated and problematic.

Would I pay for a MP expansion pack on top of what I have already paid - damn right I would.

Tals
Reply #72 Top
I have yet to understand why designing a game for MP and SP should harm the SP game at all.


To summarize the first post in this thread:

1) Multiplayer takes a lot of developer resources, which are finite. Those developer resources could have been used for adding other features.

2) Games with multiplayer tend to get streamlined because noone wants to sit around waiting for someone else to make a move. In addition, with multiplayer it's more important that a game be finishable in a single evening's play. I play 9 opponent Gigantic map games of GC2. How many people would be willing to coordinate dozens of hours of time for playing that?

I happen to agree with you that any TBS game that wants MP needs to have it factored into the gameplay design from the beginning. However, that position just supports point number 2. There's things that you won't do because of MP that you could do if that wasn't the case.
Reply #73 Top
I firmly believe the lack of a multiplayer feature is a huge mistake! Why not be able to play against your friends or even people you dont know,its silly not to be able to! Just do the same sort of multiplayer format Rise Of Nations Has. So,what if your scores wouldn't be on the metraverse in a multi-player game. Atleast you could play against other people and computer opponents as well online. To not to be able to share this game with friends and foes alike is a crime.
Reply #74 Top
Whatever else you might say, when I've figured out the AI (and I WILL figure out the AI) I will be done with this game. I've played some multiplayer games on/off for a year+, but I've never played a single player game more than a couple of months. It does really hurt this game for me not being able to go online and fight it out with my friends.

Buying the core game was still worth it (its excellent), but I can't imagine an expansion pack justifying spending the money and dusting off the game if it doesn't include multiplayer - no matter what new tricks are added, meh, I'll have done that before.
Reply #75 Top
Greetings:

I have read the opening post on this thread, which I found while looking for dates on the Multiplayer patch. My brother and I bought two copies of this game, planning to play it together. I was astounded to discover that it had no Multi-Player option. To me, that is an extremely rare decision in this day and age. I will readily grant that we should have fully researched the product before acquiring it, but, like said, Multiplayer is expected in every recent game. I do not even view it as an option anymore. And while I agree that there are certain games that are best left entirely as Single Player experiences, this one, GalCivII, is the latest incarnation of a concept that has always been Multiplayer save very few, and often unfortunate, exceptions. MOM is a perfect example: I love that game. Most everybody does. It fizzled because of the lack of Multiplayer options. The Mod that allowed Multiplayer in that game represents the collective demands of its player base. Think about it: What kind of motivation is required to program something like that? The one that comes from wanting to make a great game a grand one. GalCiv II seems exceptional in many respects. For us MOO2 fans, it is readily understandable, and it has features we would have loved in other, similar games.
But... NO AI equals a true, good player. And sharing your gaming experience with a friend, or many friends, is the one way to make sure it is always fresh and rewardingly original. Not to mention, in the apparently crucial economic pursuit, that word of mouth reaches twice as many persons (or more) in half or less the time than any other means of advertising, at least in this particular industry.
I am sorry for everyone who has had a bad experience playing with others. I really am. In SWG I learned that Sartre was potentially right: Hell can be everyone else. But that depends on perspective. Besides, in games like GalCiv II you can always choose to play with someone or not. And the other players can also make the gaming experience a rewardingly unique one. ALL AIs become predictable if you play against them long enough (unless you have one that can learn by storing the garnered data from a game session and analyzing it to redo its strategy base. Do you?). In today's world, not having the option to share with others is a limiting factor. For those who do not "play well with others" or simply feel like being alone, there is always the single player option.

Had we known that this game was Single-Player only, we would never have bought it.

Please let us know when the patch is coming out. If it is going to be an expansion and more money will have to be paid for a feature which is standard nowadays, well, that is something we would also like to know.

Congratulations, by the by: Other than the lack of Multiplayer options, this seems like a great game.

Thank you!