World Of Warcraft and Kids... Not a Great Idea

The treadmill effect.

from JoeUser Forums

*inspired by this article

     For those of you who are unfamiliar with the terms used here lets start with MMORPG. That acronym stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. These games are played remotely by millions of players every day. Some of the examples include Everquest (EQ or EverCrack), Ultima Online (UO), and most recently World of Warcraft (WoW). There are others of course and they all vary in terms of game mechanics, scope, and milieu but they all share one core game mechanic : the treadmill.

     The treadmill is the Pavlovian system of action = reward that keeps a gamer gaming. It takes the form of incremental intrinsic character improvements, equipment finds, or even appearance changes. The goal in designing an MMORPG is to give the player "one more thing" to do or get at all times. There is always another skill to impove, a level to gain, or a rare piece of equipment to quest after.

     This system is so well designed and implemented in so many overlapping layers that it is very common to spend far more time playing the game than you think you have spent. After all it will just take another 5 minutes to accomplish that next micro-goal right? Of course that micrro-accomplpisment and it's accompanying reward produce a pretty gratifying feeling of progress and sucess so whats 5 more minutes... and 5 more... and 15 more to group up and camp that boss monster who drops that ultra-rare set of boots that woudl complete that set I have been collecting and... so on.

     I have nothing against this style of gaming, in fact I think they are high art as gaming goes. Games are meant to be compelling and enjoyable and these games are all of that and a bag of holding but they are not a good idea for children.

     Do you think that a 9 or 10 year old has the ability to fend off Pavlov's cycle as I have just described it? Do you think that a 14 year old boy who has all the angst of that age might be able to fend off the feeling that the only progress in their life is the progression they make playing WoW? Think that they are resisting all that cyber-sex chat and simulated character sex going on in their server when they can't get a date in real life? If you do you might be retarded. Get checked out at the doctor and then come back and finish this article.

     The above paragraph is actually the less serious concern here. The fact of the matter is that if your teen or pre-teen is playing WoW then you are letting them have unsupervised Internet interactions with shitloads of adults. Go and check out some WoW player sites for all the cyber-sex, photoexchanges, online "hook-ups", and other unsavory *adult* shit that goes on here.

     Would you let you son/daughter spend 5-30 hours or more a week in adult chatrooms? Would you? Well thats what WoW is folks. It is a playground primarliy made for adults. Adults are the ones with the cash to support the MMORPG industry... not kids.

     If your kid is playing MMORPG's you are taking massive risks in terms of both addiction possibilities and also in terms of allowing them to interact with adults unsupervised. If you are an adult playing this stuff great! Bully for you Elven Ranger Bob! I could give a fuck less where you choose to spend your time. But parents... your kids can't not defend themselves as well as adults against this sort of thing. You have to do it. Be the parent, not their buddy.

 

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

Hmm. I see what you're saying. But I am going to have to disagree with you on this one.  I have an 8 year old who plays the game.   It's all about having some supervision which isn't really any different than anything else.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Here's an article that was published in Computer Games Magazine about me and my son playing World of Warcraft together:

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Depends on what you mean by kids. I think it can be bad for young teens playing unsupervised, but I used to let my daughter play Everquest with me on her mom's account when she was about 8. we filtered everything, and she ran along with me.

To my surprise it bored the utter hell out of her. The carrot on a stick thing simply did not work with her. She coudln't have cared less about levels or equipment, she just wanted to run around and explore. I think it was honestly healthy for her the way she was playing, and eventually she got bored and moved on to other things.

That said, I would never, ever let a child play alone, or interact with other people. There's too many sickos. I think kids are more resiliant than we give them credit for, honestly, though. I don't think they fall for the carrot and stick nearly as much as grownups with grownup attention spans do.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Greywar, An online game is what you let it be - "Cybersex" is not at all a part of most peoples gaming experience!

Secondly, I would like to add that as a long time gamer (Dating back before my teens) that I cannot understand how you can stereotype kids as perverted hampsters running along the neverending wheel while talking dirty ("Cybersex" and the never ending acheivement scale.).

From personal experience I have only encountered "Cybering" once, And it was..quite frankly lame. Only a *really* desperate person could actually enjoy it!.

Also I dislike your comments on games being little more than adult chat rooms and photo exchanges, Your child is not forced to participate in any of that, And (s)he cannot actually do anything without using external software! (I.E, You cannot send webcam photos over UO)

And last off I would like to say that your gaming experience is all about how seriously you take it (And how mature you are.).
No I do not mean mature as in the pubescent sence, I mean it as in how the average sane person should be able to take one look at a random piece of text that says "I want to take of my bra for you my love" and see it as just plain stupid. Addiction is also not a problem if you can actually say to yourself "Look, Its only a game".

--

In summery I found your post extremely biased, And I am sorry for you if you have had a son/daughter who was sucked in by the dark side of gaming, But any bad experiences you have had should not be dumped on us.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't think your venom is really deserved, Mr. Vincent. I played Everquest for 4+ years, and I can tell you with complete assuredness that all you have to do is play a female character and pretty soon someone will say something really lewd to you, and even sooner you'll be hit on. Whether the people are pathetic or not is for you to decide, but their existance and sheer numbers aren't in question.

I don't think grewar is stereotyping kids, he's just stating the reality of many MMORPG players. I don't think anyone here would make the point that kids should be allowed to roam free with no supervision, but that is exactly what many of them do. I agree with Brad, there's nothing wrong with it so long as it is regulated and supervised, but greywar would be on the money for parents who don't want to bother supervising their kids gaming.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
all you have to do is play a female character and pretty soon someone will say something really lewd to you, and even sooner you'll be hit on.


Ding!

I'll also throw in that greywar has always been an advocate of supervising your kids on the 'net, so he may even be okay with WoW for Brad's son considering how involved Brad is with gaming with him (although I'd suspect he would want the parent there *all the time*, I can't really presume to speak for grey).
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

so he may even be okay with WoW for Brad's son considering how involved Brad is with gaming with him

Absolutely, the key here is supervision as Brad said... If your child has unlimited play then essentially you would have to have unlimited supervisory time which simply is not likely to happen. The addiction quality of these games takes place with one key ingredient : Time. The story that inspried this is very telling. The conversation between child and mother could have been about drugs or alchohol and it would have read the same way. The crying, the bargaining, "I just need to do <foo> one more time right now and then I'll stop I promise!".

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

 Let me also add here that Brad is extrememly Tech, Net, and Game savvy which is simply not the case with most parents.

I mean it as in how the average sane person should be able to take one look at a random piece of text that says "I want to take of my bra for you my love" and see it as just plain stupid.

 

riiight and thats why there are literally millions of chatrooms devoted to nothing but cybering.

Addiction is also not a problem if you can actually say to yourself "Look, Its only a game".

"I'ts only a <foo> and I can quit anytime!" Right?

Your child is not forced to participate in any of that

As for the kids being "dirty little hamsters" complaint. Look folks, nobody *ever* thinks their kid is doing anything nasty until the naughty evidence slaps them in their naive little faces. Good kids do naughty shit if they are left to their own devides long enough especially when you leave them with the Net crowd to eggt hem on. Don't be so naive.

And I am sorry for you if you have had a son/daughter who was sucked in by the dark side of gaming, But any bad experiences you have had should not be dumped on us.

Hey thanks for proving that you didn't actually read the article smacktard. Busy levelling?

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Didn't read most of the thread but I did read the pictured article. Brad that's just brilliant. MMO's need more players like your son.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Can Greywar provide actual physical evidence of this happening? I have never heard of such a thing on Skullcrusher. Yeah, the Orgrimmar chat gets pretty retarded and I'm sure that Ironforge General does too, but I have in no place at all seen cybersex on WoW. So I say once again...Let's see some screenshots, grey.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks Greywar....I consider myself a little more educated on this gaming addiciton...and you are right, he is ADDICTED. He even SHAKES when he plays WoW he gets so excited.

Thanks again.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am woefully ignorant of online games and until this article did not know what MMORPG meant.  But the reason for my ignorance is by choice.  I know the games are addictive, and I chose not to become so addicted.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I had a mild Everquest addiction before I got to Fort Hood. It was actually somewhat severe while I was TDY en route at Fort Huachuca; I would go to sleep when I got home from class, and my roommate would wake me when he was going to bed for the night. Both the computer and the EQ account were his, you see...

Once I got here, I had to get my own account, and the computer I was using was still not mine. I could not and did not devote the correct amount of time to other priorities. In fact, I wound up quitting for mixed reasons: once I hit level 20, I found it necessary to play for at least two hours straight in order to progress at all. I could not afford that amount of time... unfortunately, I did not realize sooner that I couldn't afford any amount of time I spent on there.

I've been told time and again that the newer MMORPGs don't require that kind of time commitment, that you could play WoW or City of Heroes in 15 minute intervals and still feel like you accomplished something. I truly feel that these are just lines designed to get me to play with the other addicts. None of the people who were making these statements would even think to play in 15 minute intervals, and indeed one of them spends all her free time in WoW involved in raids and guild intrigues...
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Proof? Gee it took me about 2 seconds on google to find it. Thanks for playing DoctorNick.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gee it took me about 2 seconds on google to find it.


My favorite part was the link in the thread that takes you to another forum where there's a run down of how a dwarf reacted to two characters... "roleplaying"... where they thought they were hidden from prying eyes. I've also seen the "mistell" that they've described. Sangus had one screen-shotted with a nice sunset in the background. I guess it's easy to mistype /clan instead of /reply... maybe it's the hotkeys.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
For my two cents, I would rather my kid play WoW than something like Counterstrike or Grand Theft Auto III for hours on end.

In WoW at least there are things your child can learn such as how to get the most damage out of a sword, or how best to create their character and which gear goes with that creation. They have to think (and do math and create formulas) to figure that out. Least case, they have to look up the formula then apply it.


Thats just me though, you certainly should still watch them and monitor their time, or even play with them.


Oh and I did goto the Doctor, I am NOT retarded, I just have an opinion that doesn't agree with yours.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
My two cents:

I agree and disagree. As someone that my friends felt that I needed a intervention for WoW, I have had to think on some things. First off, telling people that WoW is not for kids is really putting all kids into the same category. Like adults, some kids are better at controlling what they do and how long they do it. To say that all kids shouldn't play is unfair to the kids. Brad's son plays WoW, and he has it under control. True, Brad also plays the games, but I think even if Brad didn't play them, his son would be the type that is able to play and watch how he plays. SOme kids, yes, maybe they shouldn't play, but I think it is up to the parents to observe and make their own judgement. If your son (or Daughter) is playing too much WoW, and showing bad behavior and bad habits because of it, then yes, take it away. But to make a blanket statement that they all shouldn't is just wrong. Usually I agree with you grey, but sorry, not this time.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why does it seems that these articles are written by people who a) don't get it and b)are old and narrow minded. MMORPG's are virtual communities, they're fun and I've never had the desire to string someone up or do anything evil to them (though people like Jack Thompson do try my patience).

One thing I have noticed is that most of the people who cry foul usually don't play games.

Oh then other hand, my mom constantly plays games at pogo.com. She must be stopped.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why does it seems that these articles are written by people who a) don't get it and b)are old and narrow minded.


One thing I have noticed is that most of the people who cry foul usually don't play games.


Yeah, you sure have greywar pegged there... doesn't play games, indeed.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree with one part of your post, UNSUPERVISED is the problem. I didn't know what privacy was until I moved out of my parents house and I thank them for keeping me to task and not letting me get in to things that they didn't know about. I wasn't sheltered or anything like that I was just SUPERVISED.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Why does it seems that these articles are written by people who a) don't get it and b)are old and narrow minded."


People go nuts when they are given the opportunity to seem more liberated than others who risk seeming overly conservative. I think it is cute how people are projecting their "Jack Thompson" rage on greywar who is basically saying the same thing I have heard MMORPG players say for years.

I differ a bit with greywar, but turning him into something he isn't won't make your argument any more effective. People ought to reread this and stop trying to make it into something it isn't. I'd also add that anyone who is trying to pretend that the social aspects of these games doesn't include sex simply hasn't played them long enough or attentively enough to know.

I played a barbarian FEMALE shaman on Everquest all the way to 65th level, and lemme tell you, it opens your eyes to what the other half have to put up with...

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

One thing I have noticed is that most of the people who cry foul usually don't play games.

 

way to represent yourself as a fucking moron... did you by any chance scroll down one fucking article? No... busy getting those +8 Boots of Assclownery I suppose.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
+8 Boots of Assclownery


Those are, unfortunately, not nearly as rare a drop as they should be.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

Those are, unfortunately, not nearly as rare a drop as they should be.

damn thats nice...

 

 

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think what we need to realize here is that video games are BETTER than real life. It doesn't matter if a person, young or old, becomes addicted to WoW, because that world is obviously a step up from the game we call "reality." In these online games, success can be achieved through effort, skill and time. Can the same be said about our own civlization? In the civilized world, there are entire systems set up to exploit people. To take advantage. Someone who should be level 75 within our "reality" is actually made level 3. What's fair about that? In the online realities, the objects we're given do what they're supposed to do. We can look at their statistics, and trust that what we're reading is the truth. Can the same be said about our own civilization? The FDA, for instance, has allowed to aspartame and hydrogenated oils to be sold to the public. Do you think hydrogenated oils are safe? Denmark banned these poison oils years and years ago, and they have the lowest rate of diabetes, auto-immune disease, cancers, heart disease, etc, than anywhere else in the whole freaking world. We're living in a society where the numbers lie to us. I say it's better to create our own reality where people are treated with the fairness that they deserve. So let's start immersing ourselves even further. Let's plug our children into machines, where the world won't disappoint and wound them emotionally and physically. It's the only fair thing to do.