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Founders Update: March - Legal stuff

Founders Update: March - Legal stuff

Hi gang,

This is covered under your NDA.  I want to give you guys who are interested a non-lawyer, non-PR update on events.

As some of you have heard, things between Stardock and Paul and Fred have gotten very ugly.  As someone who was a big enough fan to approve investing millions of dollars to revive the franchise that they first designed, this has been pretty soul-crushing on a personal level.

So what the hell happened?  Below is my best effort to summarize what happened.  Usual disclaimers apply (that whole "to the best of my knowledge and belief" and what not)

This is very, very long. I'll break it into chapters. :)

In the beginning...

Up until this Fall, things between us were very amicable.  We would give them updates and they would respond with positive encouragement.  As the Super-Melee beta got closer, I asked if we could do a special license just for the ships to be in Super-Melee (i.e. a very low royalty proposal) which they politely declined and told us that they were planning to announce a sequel to the adventure from Star Control II.

While I was not thrilled at the idea of both games being in the public eye at the same time, we were still very excited because it would allow us to point fans who wanted to see the old alien stories continued to their game and take the pressure off of us to incorporate it into Origins and its sequels.

Unfortunately, things quickly went south as it became apparent that we had very different views on what rights each side had.  We thought this had been settled years ago when we told them what rights we had and they seemed to confirm it.  They owned the IP they created and we had a license to use it if we wanted but had declined in deference.  

As I pointed out to them, that disagreement was academic and we could simply create a new document that codifies that we wouldn't use their IP without a new license and they would allow us to review their announcement on the new game to avoid any confusion in the eyes of consumers.

Unfortunately, they rejected this and their view seemed to be that they wouldn't discuss anything, even by phone, unless we first agreed with their point of view.  Our view was that that disagreement was academic since we weren't actually exercising any of those rights and were willing to write up a document that would, in essence, provide everything they wanted provided that their new game not create confusion or split the fan base. 

Not only did they reject that but they demanded we rename Super-Melee to something else (which we complied, despite them having no legal right to any trademarkable items within the games).

Ghosts of the Precursors is announced

So then they announced Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control leading many many examples of it being called "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors" and some fans asking for refunds of Star Control: Origins and others saying "Finally, a REAL Star Control game".

Nevertheless, as many saw, we still showed public support for their efforts. 

Behind the scenes, we were trying to work out a coexistence agreement.  And this is where things became impossible for us to agree.

I couldn't discuss some of this before because we were certain most fans would be incredulous for us to suggest the position they've taken on the IP. However, their latest "settlement" offer makes their view very clear so we can now discuss it:

They believe that are personally entitled to the good will and reputation of the Star Control classic games and believe that the only rights we have is to name a game with the words "Star" and "Control" put together and thus we were attempting to "trick" fans into believing the new Star Control game is associated with the classic games.  

In addition, they believed they had the right to begin inspecting Star Control: Origins complaining about features such as the ship designer, the look of various ships, the fan art people were posting, the nature of the background of Star Control itself.

The problem with these two positions is that they have no legal basis for it.  We own the Star Control trademark.  The reason there was a bidding war that reached $300,000+ at the Atari auction is because of the reputation and good will associated with the classic games.  The new Star Control game IS part of the same franchise as the classic games.  They are, quite literally, related.   

Secondly, they have no legal standing to complain about things like ship designer or fan made ships or what have you for a number of reasons that I suspect you can guess.

They want private builds of Star Control: Origins to look for infringements

At this point, we were very concerned because if they believe they have the right to nit-pick Star Control: Origins of major features like the ship designer and Super-Melee, what else might they begin to insist they own that they have no legal standing to claim?

Still, at this point, it was academic.  They were making Ghosts, we were rejecting their demands for us to make further changes to Star Control: Origins and the classic games were on Steam and GOG for sale selling whatever tiny numbers they sell.

The public attacks begin

Then they began to publicly attack us, ostensibly because the DOS games were now on Steam without their permission.  The funny thing about that is that the games had been on GOG for years so what does it matter? They get paid royalties either way.

Well, Paul and Fred's position was that they were the ones who had the agreement with GOG and not us.  Now, this was news to us because we have in our possession an agreement between Atari and GOG for distribution of that and I have an email (that is publicly available) from 2013 that makes it clear that we believe we have the rights to sell and distribute the classic games that Paul acknowledged.  If he disagreed, then 2013 would have been the time to say something.  Not 4 years later.

The problem with their position is this: If the agreement is between them and GOG (and that does appear to be the case) by what right are they doing that?  Even if the Accolade licensing agreement expired, that doesn't confer upon them the right to sell Star Control.

For example, we make a product suite called Object Desktop.  Nearly every component in it is licensed from third-parties that work at our direction in exchange for royalties. Sound familiar?  Now, let's say that those licenses expire. That doesn't give any of those developers the right to start selling Object Desktop on their own, let alone claim to be making a sequel to Object Desktop.

Still, at this stage, we are trying to gently respond to them and hope that they will knock it off.

DMCA and the lawsuit

The DMCA was the last straw.  They actually got the Star Control 1, 2, 3 games taken down for a short time from Steam and GOG during the Christmas sale.  

Now, for Star Control I and II at least they worked on those.  But Star Control III was really pushing it as they weren't involved but they do have some, unspecified licensed IP in it (i.e. the breadth of we don't know but I think we can all agree there is licensed IP in SC3).

Since they didn't hold a copyright (they finally filed something at the end of December) their DMCA take down failed.

That was the last straw.

The scary part

Consider this: That they were willing to issue a DMCA take down of a game purely because it contained IP they believe is theirs means there is every expectation that Star Control: Origins could be subjected to it as well.  

They had already demanded we take out certain ships, the ship designer, the little do-dads in the background of the Tywom, Super-Melee, etc.  

Now, imagine Star Control: Origins comes out and they decide that they believe that the game having planet classes like Chondrite violates their rights? Or they don't like that the Precursors are a major element of our story? 

They have no legal standing to complain about this but we have already seen they are willing to issue DMCA take-downs and make public attacks on us.  Imagine if they did that during the launch of Star Control: Origins.  

Since they weren't willing to pick up the phone and talk to us and their lawyer explicitly stated they had no interest in coming to a coexistence agreement with us, our only venue left was the courts.

Stardock's complaint

In essence: Don't associate your game with Star Control and compensate us for the damage you have already done.  

Paul and Fred's response

In essence: Star Control's trademark should be canceled and Stardock should be punished for distributing the DOS games on Steam.

It gets ugly

So at this point, things get really ugly.  Paul and Fred hire a Crisis PR firm that begins putting out press releases, attacking us on social media.  And while we can't prove it, a lot of brand-new accounts on social media (like Reddit) begin to show up attacking us as well.  

As it got ugly, the lawyers recommended that we trademark Ur-Quan Masters to prevent Paul and Fred from doing so and ejecting us from the UQM community (luckily we did because Paul and Fred did attempt to trademark it and they did so before they could have known we had done so first).

After they tried to cancel our Star Control trademark (do you guys understand how much of a "go for the jugular move" that is?  That's basically like setting fire to the house we just paid a lot of money for) we concluded that there is no way we are going to get them to voluntarily coexist with us.  Therefore, we made the decision that there would only be one Star Control universe and the Ur-Quan, Spathi and other aliens that people associate with Star Control would be in that and if Paul and Fred want to make a game that uses them, it needs to be under our review.

Settlement shenanigans

The court instructs the lawyers to discuss a settlement and they do.

Stardock's goal is: We don't ever want to go through this again and we want any game that is going to potentially be associated with Star Control that they want to do in the future to be reviewed by us. and we want them to compensate us for the damage they've caused.

Paul and Fred aren't some poor, indie developers.  Paul Reiche III is the President of the Activision studio, Toys for Bob.  They are industry veterans with the means to hire a personal crisis PR firm.  

We expect them to compensate us in some form for the damage they've done.  We didn't start this.  We didn't want this.  But I think most people would agree that they've shaved several percent (at least) of the sales of Star Control: Origins through their actions.  That comes out to millions of dollars.

So their lawyers and our lawyers debate on how to make that square away.  Now, at this point, Stardock is not looking very kindly on Paul and Fred.

Stardock proposes a settlement in which most of the financial damage is mitigated by buying any rights Paul and Fred claim to the old IP.  This would prevent them in the future from meddling in our Star Control games.  We don't need their cooperation to have the Ur-Quan and such in future games so it's not about the aliens.  It's about keeping them from endlessly attacking us or suing us on Star Control related things.

They misrepresent our position as demanding an apology and them "surrendering" their rights and what not.  

They in turn send out a proposal that we just find unworkable which they also completely misrepresent.  The fine print would allow them to endlessly nit-pick at Star Control and demand that we not associate Star Control with (I kid you not, read it yourself) Star Control (the classic games).  

If someone says "You guys are trying to benefit from the good will and reputation of the Star Control games!" our answer is: Yes.  That is exactly correct.  That is the point.   The whole point of the project is to revive the Star Control franchise that people know and love.  And we were willing to do it even without the old aliens to make Paul and Fred happy (and anyone who says we couldn't do that, they are dead wrong and future Star Control games will have them).

My apologies to all of you

First of all.  I am sorry.  I apologize to all of you.  Bringing Star Control back was supposed to be a wonderful thing for everyone.  And Paul and Fred bringing out Ghosts was supposed to be like a super-bonus power up awesome.   That's how it was supposed to go.  That's what we wanted.

Moving forward

The bright side is that we are more motivated than other to deliver to you guys an amazing new Star Control game.

Below are some pictures from recent weeks:

Reaching a Smuggler's hide out.

Organic world.

Updates to Fleet Battles are coming.

Auto Pilot has arrived.

I'll be around if you have any questions or thoughts.

 

 

96,868 views 81 replies
Reply #26 Top

Their response:

Their view is that the licensing agreement has expired.  

I respond:

My view is that it doesn't really matter if the old agreement has expired or not because we're not using their IP and at this point they haven't violated it by announcing a sequel.

None of us are lawyers, this is all pre-lawyer so we're all playing fast and loose with terms in these emails.  At this point, my belief is like many Founders here: I believed that Paul and Fred made the whole game basically other than the music and a bit of minor stuff from friends.  

They respond:

At this point I'm pretty annoyed.  They basically demand that we have to agree with them and just demanded that we take Super-Melee out of our game 10 days or so before we're going to go live with the Super-Melee beta.

My final response:

Soon after the lawyers take over.  But this is all before the announcement of Ghosts of the Precursors.

I have no doubt that they will post on their blog selected emails.  At which point we will post all of them so that people can see the full story.  I think I've gotten all of them.

 

 

Reply #27 Top

I don't know who calls the shots between the two of them.  All my emails with Paul were fun and friendly and my correspondence with Fred has been less so.

 

Reply #28 Top

This is sad...
I mean, it is!
Many will say that these were edited, so i say, why don't F&P prove it by showing the E-mails?
They could easily disprove these... Unless, these are True~ 
I believe in these, just saying that many a headaches could have ended if they also showed E-mails, and don't worry, i'll not share these, i know it's under NDA
<_<

Reply #29 Top

Here is the correspondence where we offer to transfer them the Star Control IP, at cost, if it would help them be able to make a new Star Control game:

So there it is.  If they want to do a new Star Control game, have the entire thing, here it is.  And they understand that we have the right to sell, distribute, market and promote the classic games.   Something they later deny.

And they...decline.

Even though they decline, we dedicate StarControl.com to helping preserve what they did for the day they do return to their universe.

The dream was that they'd one day leave Activision and we'd build a studio around them.

Alas.

 

 

Reply #30 Top

Quoting ShadeDark, reply 28

This is sad...
I mean, it is!
Many will say that these were edited, so i say, why don't F&P prove it by showing the E-mails?
They could easily disprove these... Unless, these are True~ 
I believe in these, just saying that many a headaches could have ended if they also showed E-mails, and don't worry, i'll not share these, i know it's under NDA
<_<

Not edited. Literally screenshots from Gmail.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 30


Quoting ShadeDark,

This is sad...
I mean, it is!
Many will say that these were edited, so i say, why don't F&P prove it by showing the E-mails?
They could easily disprove these... Unless, these are True~ 
I believe in these, just saying that many a headaches could have ended if they also showed E-mails, and don't worry, i'll not share these, i know it's under NDA
<_<



Not edited. Literally screenshots from Gmail.

 

I know Brad, was saying what the F&P defenders would say. 
:/

Reply #32 Top

Copy/paste of my reply in Discord for documentations sake.

@Frogboy#1760 my TL;DR overview of how I see it

At first they start off treating you respectfully like you're a fan with big dreams on a passion project but potentially no true way to move forward
Then they turn slightly dismissive of you by saying you don't have the rights to key IP but can continue on if you don't touch "their IP"
You release a timeline, some in game art with a homage "I say put the ship models and sticky note back up as it's likely fair use - ask your lawyers though :)"
Fred and Paul go pale faced thinking ohhh shit it's actually happening
Harsher worded email goes out to you
You reply still mostly positive but supply facts and references
Emails back and forth getting more desperate to stop you
Rushed announcement of Ghosts comes out to overshadow the release of the beta
DMCA Takedown filed - First extortion attempt
Lawyers get involved
Legal happenings -- Edited for language oops.
PR Fire starts here
Fred and Paul want to settle by treating you like a 3rd party contractor while simultaneously stripping you of all your legal rights.
PR Fire continues

Personally I would suggest continue full steam ahead with your timetable and making your court case as airtight as possible.

After "Good Faith" negotiations put in every race you're legally capable of distributing via your licenses to IP as DLC and make the negotiated percentage come out of the cost of the DLC and not the base game. -- This may require you request fans remove their versions of SC 1-3 ships from the steam workshop.

Also, maintain any and all fair use references in game, not as a F U to Fred & Paul but as a homage to the game that inspired many.

 

Note: at a later point it was pointed out that some of Shade Meadows fan art was mentioned by Fred and Paul which made me worried they would go after Serosis due to the MegaMod project potentially being seen as a derivative work instead of an evolution of the 3DO Source Code released to the public.

Reply #33 Top

Brad and what about Stardock starting their own PR campaign with a title something like - just read and make up your own mind. So that you post things online etc.  Why is Stardock so silent in public space?

Reply #35 Top

Quoting AuditYerTaxes, reply 34

Leonard French is doing videos on the topic....  First one just went up 
Video here

This was very interesting to listen to.

It really struck me how often Paul and Fred spin the truth on these matters.  

For example, Paul and Fred would lead you to think that Stardock thinks it owns copyrights on Star Control 1 and 2.  Not true.  Stardock has always gone way, WAY out of its way to say that Stardock has zero copyrights in Star Control 1/2 (other than the packaging).

Similarly, Paul and Fred continue to set up a strawman about fair use of trademarks as if they were simply making historical statements on their work on Star Control II.

Let's be clear: None of these constitute "Fair Use".  The only question a juror would be asked on them: Would these make you believe that this game is associated with Star Control? If yes, it's not fair use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are all publicly available so you can link to the images in this post.

It's pretty obvious that they want their game to benefit from the reputation of Star Control.  It is not a sequel to Star Control II contrary to what they may want to argue.  Only the product owner (that would be Accolade/Atari/Stardock) determines that.  Paul and Fred were developers who licensed  content to Accolade for Accolade's product.  

Star Control: Origins contains no material that Paul and Fred can reasonably claim copyright to.

Here's a nice summary of the difference between trademark and copyright.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/differences-between-copyright-trademark-3218.html 

Reply #36 Top

The only thing I am not clear about is whether or not there was a lapse in royalties causing the license to expire.  Everything else seems to support Stardock's position.

Reply #37 Top

YOU PUT LOOTBOXES!

...
Wrong Thread? 

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Prof_Hari_Seldon, reply 36

The only thing I am not clear about is whether or not there was a lapse in royalties causing the license to expire.  Everything else seems to support Stardock's position.

The burden would be on them.

If I got, say, a $150k advance on royalties, it could be many years, if ever, before I started getting checks.

Reply #40 Top

Watching those 2 videos from the lawyer,  it seems like stardock is in big trouble making that lawsuit, and only has the right to the name.  Brad wardell himself stating numerous times that Fred and Paul owned the ip.    The secon video makes it a whole lot clearer. But watch the video for yourself. Its very interesting.

 

Reply #41 Top

But Stardock is not using any of Fred and Paul's IP (the aliens and plot).  The mechanics of SC:O is very similar to SC:2 but I would argue that should not be part of Fred and Paul's IP.  For example is the first FPS game to use regenerating health or shields suing most modern FPS for having that?  No.

Reply #42 Top

To me it is quite clear according to theese videos that stardock is the aggressors and in a NOT so Nice Way try to smash anything in their Way with a Big tank on the road.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Culture19, reply 42

To me it is quite clear according to theese videos that stardock is the aggressors and in a NOT so Nice Way try to smash anything in their Way with a Big tank on the road.

How are we the aggressors?

Reply #44 Top

After watching the video I realized this guy gets paid from donations. I also felt he presented his ideas with bias. This leads me to believe that F&P made a sizable donation to his Patreon page in exchange for a video hit piece on his end, making it appear his expertise has now judged in favor of F&P. He never once empathized the point of view of Stardock. It is very telling actually. In any event his slant on legalities makes you think Stardock never had any rights to Star Control and that Stardock will end up losing because of Ip infringements in Gal Civ III and SCO. I disagree with all of his opinions.

Reply #45 Top

Sadly I believe it's part of the PR firm at work there, doing everything they can to get Stardock to lose in the "Court of Opinion" prior to the true legal battle.  It's an old tactic, an army marches on its stomach, if you cut off the supply line it'll starve and you've won by default.

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Reply #46 Top

Quoting Prof_Hari_Seldon, reply 41

But Stardock is not using any of Fred and Paul's IP (the aliens and plot).  The mechanics of SC:O is very similar to SC:2 but I would argue that should not be part of Fred and Paul's IP.  For example is the first FPS game to use regenerating health or shields suing most modern FPS for having that?  No.

The gameplay of SC/SCII was not created by Paul and Fred and does not belong to Paul and Fred.  It is not "their IP".  If they attempt to make that claim, it would be a simple matter for Stardock's lawyers to prove that is not true.

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 46


Quoting Prof_Hari_Seldon,

But Stardock is not using any of Fred and Paul's IP (the aliens and plot).  The mechanics of SC:O is very similar to SC:2 but I would argue that should not be part of Fred and Paul's IP.  For example is the first FPS game to use regenerating health or shields suing most modern FPS for having that?  No.



The gameplay of SC/SCII was not created by Paul and Fred and does not belong to Paul and Fred.  It is not "their IP".  If they attempt to make that claim, it would be a simple matter for Stardock's lawyers to prove that is not true.

 

I thought Fred Ford owned the source code (and implicitly the gameplay mechanics created by that source code) because he created it (see the start of the credits for Star Control 2 it says "Game Program and Technology Fred Ford")

 

And I thought it was Paul and Fred who released the source code for Star Control II 3DO so that Ur-Quan Masters open-source could be made.

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Star_Control_Intellectual_Property

http://sc2.sourceforge.net/petition/background.php

 

But again no problem for Stardock I don't think Paul and Fred can successfully sue about gameplay (For example is the first FPS game to use regenerating health or shields suing most modern FPS for having that? No.)

Reply #48 Top

The source code and the gameplay are two entirely different things.  Stardock doesn't want me discussing this on their forum.  I made some posts in the comments after those recent legal videos.  SC/SCII is not "Paul and Fred's game".  They were simply imitating what was most likely their favorite game at the time.  Much of what they are demanding that they "own" and nobody else can use was never theirs to begin with.  I had more to do with "creating the gameplay" of SC/SCII than Paul and Fred did.

 

Reply #49 Top

Well... these Videos came from nowhere... but i agree with Brad about their reason. 

Reply #50 Top

I trust French to be non-partial when it comes to cases. I've been following him long enough to know how he reads things.  ALL he was doing was reading the documents he had in hand and commenting on them.  I think he doesn't have nearly as much information as is provided in this forum post.  And I can't fill him in as he's not under the NDA.  So I think his end conclusion was pretty correct, this is gonna be a mess.  I think Paul and Fred did a pretty masterful job of writing a "true, but not totally" court document.   The details listed here show how they shaded the truth.  I don't see how this isn't going to court and I don't see how it will be anything other then a long process.