Founders Update: March - Legal stuff

Hi gang,

This is covered under your NDA.  I want to give you guys who are interested a non-lawyer, non-PR update on events.

As some of you have heard, things between Stardock and Paul and Fred have gotten very ugly.  As someone who was a big enough fan to approve investing millions of dollars to revive the franchise that they first designed, this has been pretty soul-crushing on a personal level.

So what the hell happened?  Below is my best effort to summarize what happened.  Usual disclaimers apply (that whole "to the best of my knowledge and belief" and what not)

This is very, very long. I'll break it into chapters. :)

In the beginning...

Up until this Fall, things between us were very amicable.  We would give them updates and they would respond with positive encouragement.  As the Super-Melee beta got closer, I asked if we could do a special license just for the ships to be in Super-Melee (i.e. a very low royalty proposal) which they politely declined and told us that they were planning to announce a sequel to the adventure from Star Control II.

While I was not thrilled at the idea of both games being in the public eye at the same time, we were still very excited because it would allow us to point fans who wanted to see the old alien stories continued to their game and take the pressure off of us to incorporate it into Origins and its sequels.

Unfortunately, things quickly went south as it became apparent that we had very different views on what rights each side had.  We thought this had been settled years ago when we told them what rights we had and they seemed to confirm it.  They owned the IP they created and we had a license to use it if we wanted but had declined in deference.  

As I pointed out to them, that disagreement was academic and we could simply create a new document that codifies that we wouldn't use their IP without a new license and they would allow us to review their announcement on the new game to avoid any confusion in the eyes of consumers.

Unfortunately, they rejected this and their view seemed to be that they wouldn't discuss anything, even by phone, unless we first agreed with their point of view.  Our view was that that disagreement was academic since we weren't actually exercising any of those rights and were willing to write up a document that would, in essence, provide everything they wanted provided that their new game not create confusion or split the fan base. 

Not only did they reject that but they demanded we rename Super-Melee to something else (which we complied, despite them having no legal right to any trademarkable items within the games).

Ghosts of the Precursors is announced

So then they announced Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control leading many many examples of it being called "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors" and some fans asking for refunds of Star Control: Origins and others saying "Finally, a REAL Star Control game".

Nevertheless, as many saw, we still showed public support for their efforts. 

Behind the scenes, we were trying to work out a coexistence agreement.  And this is where things became impossible for us to agree.

I couldn't discuss some of this before because we were certain most fans would be incredulous for us to suggest the position they've taken on the IP. However, their latest "settlement" offer makes their view very clear so we can now discuss it:

They believe that are personally entitled to the good will and reputation of the Star Control classic games and believe that the only rights we have is to name a game with the words "Star" and "Control" put together and thus we were attempting to "trick" fans into believing the new Star Control game is associated with the classic games.  

In addition, they believed they had the right to begin inspecting Star Control: Origins complaining about features such as the ship designer, the look of various ships, the fan art people were posting, the nature of the background of Star Control itself.

The problem with these two positions is that they have no legal basis for it.  We own the Star Control trademark.  The reason there was a bidding war that reached $300,000+ at the Atari auction is because of the reputation and good will associated with the classic games.  The new Star Control game IS part of the same franchise as the classic games.  They are, quite literally, related.   

Secondly, they have no legal standing to complain about things like ship designer or fan made ships or what have you for a number of reasons that I suspect you can guess.

They want private builds of Star Control: Origins to look for infringements

At this point, we were very concerned because if they believe they have the right to nit-pick Star Control: Origins of major features like the ship designer and Super-Melee, what else might they begin to insist they own that they have no legal standing to claim?

Still, at this point, it was academic.  They were making Ghosts, we were rejecting their demands for us to make further changes to Star Control: Origins and the classic games were on Steam and GOG for sale selling whatever tiny numbers they sell.

The public attacks begin

Then they began to publicly attack us, ostensibly because the DOS games were now on Steam without their permission.  The funny thing about that is that the games had been on GOG for years so what does it matter? They get paid royalties either way.

Well, Paul and Fred's position was that they were the ones who had the agreement with GOG and not us.  Now, this was news to us because we have in our possession an agreement between Atari and GOG for distribution of that and I have an email (that is publicly available) from 2013 that makes it clear that we believe we have the rights to sell and distribute the classic games that Paul acknowledged.  If he disagreed, then 2013 would have been the time to say something.  Not 4 years later.

The problem with their position is this: If the agreement is between them and GOG (and that does appear to be the case) by what right are they doing that?  Even if the Accolade licensing agreement expired, that doesn't confer upon them the right to sell Star Control.

For example, we make a product suite called Object Desktop.  Nearly every component in it is licensed from third-parties that work at our direction in exchange for royalties. Sound familiar?  Now, let's say that those licenses expire. That doesn't give any of those developers the right to start selling Object Desktop on their own, let alone claim to be making a sequel to Object Desktop.

Still, at this stage, we are trying to gently respond to them and hope that they will knock it off.

DMCA and the lawsuit

The DMCA was the last straw.  They actually got the Star Control 1, 2, 3 games taken down for a short time from Steam and GOG during the Christmas sale.  

Now, for Star Control I and II at least they worked on those.  But Star Control III was really pushing it as they weren't involved but they do have some, unspecified licensed IP in it (i.e. the breadth of we don't know but I think we can all agree there is licensed IP in SC3).

Since they didn't hold a copyright (they finally filed something at the end of December) their DMCA take down failed.

That was the last straw.

The scary part

Consider this: That they were willing to issue a DMCA take down of a game purely because it contained IP they believe is theirs means there is every expectation that Star Control: Origins could be subjected to it as well.  

They had already demanded we take out certain ships, the ship designer, the little do-dads in the background of the Tywom, Super-Melee, etc.  

Now, imagine Star Control: Origins comes out and they decide that they believe that the game having planet classes like Chondrite violates their rights? Or they don't like that the Precursors are a major element of our story? 

They have no legal standing to complain about this but we have already seen they are willing to issue DMCA take-downs and make public attacks on us.  Imagine if they did that during the launch of Star Control: Origins.  

Since they weren't willing to pick up the phone and talk to us and their lawyer explicitly stated they had no interest in coming to a coexistence agreement with us, our only venue left was the courts.

Stardock's complaint

In essence: Don't associate your game with Star Control and compensate us for the damage you have already done.  

Paul and Fred's response

In essence: Star Control's trademark should be canceled and Stardock should be punished for distributing the DOS games on Steam.

It gets ugly

So at this point, things get really ugly.  Paul and Fred hire a Crisis PR firm that begins putting out press releases, attacking us on social media.  And while we can't prove it, a lot of brand-new accounts on social media (like Reddit) begin to show up attacking us as well.  

As it got ugly, the lawyers recommended that we trademark Ur-Quan Masters to prevent Paul and Fred from doing so and ejecting us from the UQM community (luckily we did because Paul and Fred did attempt to trademark it and they did so before they could have known we had done so first).

After they tried to cancel our Star Control trademark (do you guys understand how much of a "go for the jugular move" that is?  That's basically like setting fire to the house we just paid a lot of money for) we concluded that there is no way we are going to get them to voluntarily coexist with us.  Therefore, we made the decision that there would only be one Star Control universe and the Ur-Quan, Spathi and other aliens that people associate with Star Control would be in that and if Paul and Fred want to make a game that uses them, it needs to be under our review.

Settlement shenanigans

The court instructs the lawyers to discuss a settlement and they do.

Stardock's goal is: We don't ever want to go through this again and we want any game that is going to potentially be associated with Star Control that they want to do in the future to be reviewed by us. and we want them to compensate us for the damage they've caused.

Paul and Fred aren't some poor, indie developers.  Paul Reiche III is the President of the Activision studio, Toys for Bob.  They are industry veterans with the means to hire a personal crisis PR firm.  

We expect them to compensate us in some form for the damage they've done.  We didn't start this.  We didn't want this.  But I think most people would agree that they've shaved several percent (at least) of the sales of Star Control: Origins through their actions.  That comes out to millions of dollars.

So their lawyers and our lawyers debate on how to make that square away.  Now, at this point, Stardock is not looking very kindly on Paul and Fred.

Stardock proposes a settlement in which most of the financial damage is mitigated by buying any rights Paul and Fred claim to the old IP.  This would prevent them in the future from meddling in our Star Control games.  We don't need their cooperation to have the Ur-Quan and such in future games so it's not about the aliens.  It's about keeping them from endlessly attacking us or suing us on Star Control related things.

They misrepresent our position as demanding an apology and them "surrendering" their rights and what not.  

They in turn send out a proposal that we just find unworkable which they also completely misrepresent.  The fine print would allow them to endlessly nit-pick at Star Control and demand that we not associate Star Control with (I kid you not, read it yourself) Star Control (the classic games).  

If someone says "You guys are trying to benefit from the good will and reputation of the Star Control games!" our answer is: Yes.  That is exactly correct.  That is the point.   The whole point of the project is to revive the Star Control franchise that people know and love.  And we were willing to do it even without the old aliens to make Paul and Fred happy (and anyone who says we couldn't do that, they are dead wrong and future Star Control games will have them).

My apologies to all of you

First of all.  I am sorry.  I apologize to all of you.  Bringing Star Control back was supposed to be a wonderful thing for everyone.  And Paul and Fred bringing out Ghosts was supposed to be like a super-bonus power up awesome.   That's how it was supposed to go.  That's what we wanted.

Moving forward

The bright side is that we are more motivated than other to deliver to you guys an amazing new Star Control game.

Below are some pictures from recent weeks:

Reaching a Smuggler's hide out.

Organic world.

Updates to Fleet Battles are coming.

Auto Pilot has arrived.

I'll be around if you have any questions or thoughts.

 

 

96,868 views 81 replies
Reply #1 Top

I don't think i have any questions at the moment, but i want you and the Stardock crew to know, that i am with ya, i don't want to sound like that kind of Zealous fan that agrees with everything, which i'm not since i don't know Stardock for long, but at least to me it's clear that you guys are in the right, even if there was some iffy things in this fight!
I really hope the game comes out without a hitch, and the Hate-Base is just showing the reality that the "trolls" are more active than the supporters, i imagine that there are many around!
I will support this until the end! i'm proud to be here! Many SC:O drawings will be posted! 
Stardock is awesome, i'll be part of something like it someday ^_^
(Gettin' to study then:grin: )


Anyway... wall of text aside... at least i see that many are trying to not let this get them down! 
Keep Being Awesome! 

Reply #2 Top

Don't know how long I've had a Stardock account, but I am in your corner, Brad.  FaP have stepped over the line and are seeking to destroy what seems to be a fantastic Star Control game.  Can't wait to play it.

Draco (Discord)

Kaiser (UQM)

Reply #3 Top

Paul and Fred should have left well enough alone.  They reached my maximum tolerance when they asked you to rename Super-Melee but from your post it seems once they announced Ghosts of the Precursors they pushed for every legal attack on you.

 

There is something unjust about the tone of this recent statement by Paul and Fred:

"It is fun and informative to read your comments… even the ones that don’t see things exactly the same way we do."

https://dogarandkazon.squarespace.com/

 

I wish Paul and Fred had listened to Stardock as much recently.

Reply #5 Top

I think I've made my perspective on the issue abundantly clear already.

 

Reply #6 Top

Thanks guys.

With regard to their settlement offer, I don't know how many of you actually read it but it is pretty clear what their intent is.  Besides demanding that we not associate with Star Control, the classic games (like I previously mentioned) they also would demand that we essentially cancel Star Control: Origins.

This paragraph would grant them the right to demand that we remove Riku's music from the game (Riku did a lot of the SC2 music and is the primary composer for Origins) along with any UI, concept (likenesses), User experience (which can be interpreted very broadly).

Obviously, we are not going to accept anything like this and they have no right to Riku's music nor to our game design.

Anyone suggesting that their offer was reasonable either hasn't read it or is being disingenuous.

 

 

Reply #7 Top

They (P&F) have no legal claim to the music.

: How was the music gathered and placed into the game? Were Dan

: Nicholson, Riku Nuottojarvi, et al. commissioned to provide music?

: Are they known to you personally?

Believe it or not we have never met Dan or Riku face to face. We have only dealt with them electronically. The music is an interesting story. As we hurtled toward

our finish date, we realized that we had all these alien races and not only no music for them but no budget (understandable given my previous posts). That's when we came up with a desperate gambit. We would hold a MOD music contest over the internet with a $500 first prize and many $50 second place prizes. We probably got about ten different MOD artists who submitted MODs (two of them were Riku and Dan and, in fact, Star Control II is what brought them together). We used most of the MODs that we got, but Riku and Dan demonstrated the talent and willingness to do additional pieces for us as well.

Source

: I was wondering if you'd mind me putting my own version of your song on the CD... And secondly, I was wondering if I could put the 3DO version of the Hyperspace theme on the next project of mine, a remix CD.

TFB has no problem with your using the songs, but I don't know if that carries much weight. We told the various musicians who did work for the game that we would license the use of that music only for the game. So ultimately the owner of the music would be the writer who, in this case, is Riku. If you are selling the CD there may be some legal ramifications. If not, it's probably no big deal, but you probably should check.

The 3DO remix was done by a fellow named Burke Treischmann who is a really nice guy. He probably wouldn't mind although, again, I don't really know if his O.K. is the ultimate O.K. I would suspect that Riku would still be the potential stumbling block.

Source

 

I do have two questions.

If I understood correctly there was never any legal agreement between Atari and Paul regarding the distribution of the classic games?

Paul was receiving royalties both from GOG and Stardock from sales of the classic games?

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Rhonin_the_wizard, reply 7

If I understood correctly there was never any legal agreement between Atari and Paul regarding the distribution of the classic games?

Paul was receiving royalties both from GOG and Stardock from sales of the classic games?

We don't know.  They claim there is some sort of agreement where Atari licensed them the right to use the trademark or something.

The problem is, even if the licensing agreement expired like they claim, that doesn't let them start distributing the product themselves.  The only legal way they could really do that is if they were an agent of Atari setting it up on a commission.  Since we don't have the agreement (that will have to come through discovery) we don't know.

Legally speaking, Paul and Fred have no more right to sell Star Control games than Riku does.  

We all have great respect for the work and genius of Paul and Fred but at the end of the day, they were Accolade contractors who were paid to deliver content to be licensed for Accolade's product.  There is no special, magical law just for Paul Reiche III that gives him extra legal benefits.

Reply #9 Top

For those who have been told that Paul and Fred never wanted to work with us:

 

 

 

As you can see here, Paul was interested in working with us but it was Activision that prevented that.

You can also see that we absolutely had zero interest in owning their universe.  Rather, we wanted to help increase the value of their universe.

 

Reply #10 Top

This is what was stated in P&F's countercliam.

This goes against what is stated in the emails.

Question, what are the consequences of lying in documents submitted to the court?

Reply #11 Top

My entire support is behind you guys, as a long time fan of the SC series.  I can't imagine how much this kills morale in the office, but I hope you know that there are a lot of us silent fans out there pushing for this to be a huge success.  As much as I respect the original duo, they abandoned Star Control completely, and rarely engaged with the fan base or gave hope of a relaunch of the series.  It wasn't until Stardock got involved that anyone actually had hope that something would be made again.  It's a shitty game they're playing, and they're treating it like a zero sum game, as if your success breathing life back into Star Control would prevent them from creating something successful on their own.

No matter the outcome, wishing you luck moving forward!

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Reply #12 Top

Quoting Rhonin_the_wizard, reply 10

This is what was stated in P&F's countercliam.



This goes against what is stated in the emails.

Question, what are the consequences of lying in documents submitted to the court?

The consequences are dire.

A few years ago, Stardock was sued for hostile work environment which included a sexual harassment charge against me (it was totally false).  During testimony, it came out that she was just mad that I was mean to her and her dad had told her that because I was rich I would just settle to make her go away.  She actually said this.  Anyway, that resulted in her having to settle the case on very favorable terms for us that included a public apology (and by that I mean an actual apology letter).

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting deesh196, reply 11

My entire support is behind you guys, as a long time fan of the SC series.  I can't imagine how much this kills morale in the office, but I hope you know that there are a lot of us silent fans out there pushing for this to be a huge success.  As much as I respect the original duo, they abandoned Star Control completely, and rarely engaged with the fan base or gave hope of a relaunch of the series.  It wasn't until Stardock got involved that anyone actually had hope that something would be made again.  It's a shitty game they're playing, and they're treating it like a zero sum game, as if your success breathing life back into Star Control would prevent them from creating something successful on their own.

No matter the outcome, wishing you luck moving forward!

Thanks!

Reply #14 Top

It's good to have a post like this, while P and F started showing their emotions and not the law first,
it's good to have this turn around, and have Stardock start with the law and show the emotional part~ 

Reply #15 Top

Hi Brad,

I signed up for Founder's because I figured if anyone could pull off a reboot, it would be Stardock. This was based on Stardock's gaming legacy and in a trust that Stardock had 'done the right thing' wrt the rights.

I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Keep on keeping on.

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Reply #16 Top

I've been following this whole situation with sadness.  It's an age-old problem: what do you do when you try to cooperate but the other party only wants a fight?  You've come to the conclusion there's no choice left but to fight back with everything you have at your disposal, which I would probably have done as well.  It doesn't make it less sad, and it's refreshing to see that little paragraph where you acknowledge what the "perfect" future would have been.

I like what I'm seeing from your team so far on SC:O, and to me the biggest uncertainty is what the story will be like (which is not something I imagine you will convey).  Star Control II was a set of reasonable to excellent arcade games tied together by one of the best stories of its day.  That's ultimately what I'm saddest about: the dashed potential of any direct sequel to the story of Star Control II from the people who knew it best.  But honestly they seem to be wanting everything after abandoning the franchise years ago, and hoping the court of public opinion will grant it to them.

I know Stardock has little chance of coming out of this situation looking anything but the bad guys, but some of us can tell the difference, in case that means anything.  Put together a great game and I think people will move beyond, eventually.  Maybe there's even a future, after all is settled, where you can work with your current opponents the way you wanted.  It probably doesn't seem possible now, but stranger things have happened.

Reply #17 Top

Here are some additional emails that were exchanged that address much of the misinformation that Paul and Fred have posted about us.

 

This one is me offering to transfer Star Control, all of it, to Paul and Fred if they think they might be able to return to the franchise in the near future.  They passed on this.

 

In Paul and Fred's counterclaim, they insisted that they had never met with us before which is false.

 

 

This discussion also makes it clear that not only would we be thrilled if they returned to their story but we would help them spread the word on it.   Obviously we never imagined they would call it the "True" sequel to Star Control using Star Control as part of their announcement.

And this:

Is one of the Status Reports I would occasionally send them including videos.  This should, I would think, make pretty clear what our intentions were and that we were doing our best to make sure Paul and Fred were being kept up to date on what we were doing and that we explicitly created the multiverse concept in order to keep the door open to them returning one day to continue their story even if it didn't involve Stardock.

Hopefully this dispels any question that we had some sort of diabolical plan to usurp their universe for our own purposes.  We wanted them to return, even if it didn't involve working with us.  We offered to sell them the IP early on if it would encourage them to return.

I am not a mind reader but the fact that they chose to make their announcement, with no evidence that they had done any work, 5 days before our Super-Melee Fleet Battles beta and claim to be the true sequel doesn't make me feel good about what they had in mind.

Combine that with their ever growing list of things they wanted taken out of Star Control: Origins and their subsequent publicly posted settlement proposal that includes taking away most of the value of our trademark and allowing them to dictate what is in not just Star Control but all Stardock games makes my believe the following:

I don't believe they had any intention of making a new game in the near future but rather wanted to derail our effort so that they could, someday, in the distant future, possibly, maybe do a game without having to worry about competition.

 

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Reply #18 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 17
I don't believe they had any intention of making a new game in the near future but rather wanted to derail our effort so that they could, someday, in the distant future, possibly, maybe do a game without having to worry about competition.
So, basically what I said here weeks ago...

Reply #19 Top

Here is the 2015 status report:

Reply #20 Top

2013 email back when we were on the same page:

At this point, we believed they owned the in-game IP (the aliens and such) and they understood we had the trademark and acknowledged that there was an agreement between GOG and Atari for the classic games which transferred to us.

 

 

Reply #21 Top

Early Fall 2015 status report:

 

Total fanboyish.:)

Reply #22 Top

Paul responding with encouragement and asking to be kept up to date.

Reply #23 Top

October 12, when they sent their lawyer to me:

Reply #24 Top

Where it starts to go bad:  Fall 2017:

I send interview questions in preparation for the 25th anniversary:

 

 

Reply #25 Top

Now.. It's Fred that responds.  Paul was always super nice.

So I'm a bit surprised by this.  

At this point, we have an agreement that states we have a license to their IP along with various stipulations that prevent them from making a sequel even if the 1988 agreement has expired.

 

They respond:

My response:

At this point, I'm trying to get them on the phone to just talk about how we can clear up any disagreements amicably.