April Update - You can't trust him (animation)

I have to agree here even though I like what I see for the most part. Whimsical is definitely something that revealed aliens are missing...

EDIT: Civ 6 cartoony graphics is being disliked by majority BTW.

I still like the example of Team Fortress II as a "timeless cartoony" look.  What I have seen of SC matches this, with more of a looney toons look than TFII.  I'm in my late 40's, so I love looney toons:-)

I also agree. I would like to see character design more in line with recent titles like Stellaris, Stardrive, or GalCiv.

The Syreen, Arilou, Druuge, and Utwig were hardly big risktakers in terms of alien design, but the Ur-Quan, Umgah, Zoq-Fot-Pik, Slylandro, Mycon, Supox and Chenjesu were all out there in terms of having biology that has no evolutionary ties to life on Earth. I don't like to think that because they were hand-drawn illustrations that this made them intrinsically "cartoony", it was simply the best way to convey their design given the budget and the tech back then, and I don't think that should pigeonhole Star Control into being innately cartoonlike or comically silly.

I favor an equal distribution of cartoony, realistic, and frightening aliens that all have some believability to them.

I agree that Star Control's "cartoony" look probably wasn't intentional and was more a result of the EGA graphics of the day.  But that's the impression that it gives today, and something of a signature look for the series.  It might not have been intentional, but that is what it looks like.  And it is the same path I would have been led down, so I think it's great.  I can see how some would prefer a "realistic" look to space, but that's how almost all space games go for and for the last decade it is specifically the Babylon 5 look that everyone goes for in any game.

At this point I'd be in support of "anything that doesn't look like Babylon 5" even though I am a huge fan of the show.

No, Kavik, I'm not saying that at all. Star Control II's graphics were NOT cartoony. That's the point. There's a difference between cartoony and stylized. Between cartoony and whimsical. That's the whole point of this thread. Stay AWAY from the kids' show looks and instead go for... I don't know? I can't think of a good example. 

The point is: NOT REALISTIC looking at all. But not Cartoonish, either. 

Someone help me out, please. Look at that guy in the video (You can trust him)!!! He looks like he should be on the teletubbies or Blue's Clues! 

I shouldn't have said "serious, real looking" because I think I just confused you. But I know Awkbird and Hunam know what I was getting at. Pull up a pic of the Druuge and the Utwig and the Mycon for crying out loud. They're not REALISTIC by any means, but they don't belong in a kids' cartoon, either. The art style is serious, whimsical and stylistic painted. 

And you should go read about the Civilization 6 reveal today. It was unanimously DESTROYED because of the "cartoony" new art style. You won't get 3 comments deep without a flame war starting about how much people loathe the new art style. Avoid this, Stardock. 

EDIT: DAMN YOU HUNAM_! You got to the Civ6 comment before my commute home was over! I hate you!!! lulz

As a followup to my earlier post, here is an excellent graphic of all the alien designs from Stellaris. I wouldn't consider any of these cartoony, yet they are all hand drawn. And even despite a majority of them technically being defined as humanoid, they are all very differentiated and exotic.

A few of them are admittedly just heads interchangeably attached to the common clothing styles but I'm very impressed with the huge variety they came up with. They all exhibit a lot more creativity than most of the typical attempts I see being made at designing aliens for games.

I wouldn't want to see "cartoony" in Civilization, either.  I just recently heard of a Civ6 and immediately decided to ignore it.  I think of Civilization in the opposite way of Star Trek.  With Star Trek movies the even numbered ones are good and the odd numbered ones are average at best.  Civilization is the opposite, the odd numbered ones are good and the even numbered ones are average at best.

So I was already planning on ignoring Civ6:-)

Quoting Awkbird, reply 6

As a followup to my earlier post, here is an excellent graphic of all the alien designs from Stellaris. I wouldn't consider any of these cartoony, yet they are all hand drawn. And even despite a majority of them technically being defined as humanoid, they are all very differentiated and exotic.

A few of them are admittedly just heads interchangeably attached to the common clothing styles but I'm very impressed with the huge variety they came up with. They all exhibit a lot more creativity than most of the typical attempts I see being made at designing aliens for games.

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I'm going to be honest, the past few days, at least 60% of my time that hasn't been sleeping or working on my Game Design final has been spent playing Stellaris, for a number of reasons I won't be particularly verbose about, but primarily because I get that same high that Star Control gave me years ago.

Nice. I'd be lying if I said the footage I've looked at didn't evoke similar reactions for me, although the different genre it occupies gave me pause. It kind of strikes me as a 4X version of Star Control, but I wasn't sure if I should pull the trigger on it. I already got early access to Master of Orion and quite frankly, I'm content just waiting until it's in full release before playing again ... really wasn't digging the idea of essentially playtesting through all its development shortcomings.

Just watching some of the gameplay videos for Stellaris feels like homework, but I'll probably take the plunge soon.

Stellaris has been really fun so far! I like the sheer variety of aliens and anomalies! Even the fungus creatures remind me of Star Control. 

I already brought this same issue up in the planet design thread, but Cuorebrave worded it better than i could.

SC2 was (to me) a serious story with a "realistic" universe and planets. The aliens were cartoony (English is not my native language so that's the only word i could come up with) but this did not detract from the serious nature of the game for me.

I am left wondering why the devs seem to have gotten a completely different vibe from SC2 than (most of) the rest of us did?

"Don't worry we're fans of SC so we want to build a worthy sucessor, here's some concept art of a cartoon planet that in no way resembles what SC2 planets were like". Yay?

On the other hand there's people who just want the new SC to be as different as possible from modern space games so they welcome the cartoony look (yet are going to ignore another game mentioned to have cartoony graphics because of cartoony graphics.....go figure).

Funnily enough since SC2 already used "cartoony" aliens i don't really dislike any designs on that part yet. If aliens can be dragon-caterpillar hybrids or birdlike/squidlike who's to say there isn't a planet filled with teletubbie-like creatures somewhere out there?

I'm not ignoring Civ6 because of how it looks, I haven't even seen it.  I honestly believe in the even-numbered Civ/odd-numbered Star Trek thing. 

Star Control II was definitely a mix of "realistic" looking things like the planets and "cartoony" looking things because of the low resolution and color count of EGA graphics.  So it really is accurate to claim it being both, which is what is happening.  I am led in the same direction as the people at Stardock on this by SCII, to go with the cartoony appearance of some the EGA era graphics that are the most memorable look of SC too me, and an obvious potential "signature" of the series.  I just happen to see it the same way they do.

I can see some wanting a more realistic look, but you can get that from pretty much any other space game that is coming soon.  And it seems so appropriate for Star Control... even without space hockey.

I agree with OP.  I haven't a suggestion of how to get around it, but I agree...it's a thin line.

Hmm... can we see the background animation for that "you can trust" guy. Maybe when we get a full picture and not just the animation of the alien it all shines in a different color? 

But I tend to agree... it is not about cartoony look (has anyone seen Mr Pickles?  Rick and Morty? Duck Tales? Robotech? Those are all cartoons but their styles are so different )... it is about the alien being too childish. This is not Sesame street or StarFox, this is Star Control after all. I do not mind having one or two aliens who might be childish in their look so that my kids would like to hug them.... if we have 20 aliens and 1 or 2 of them are like that - no problem. This alien is like a Pkunk for me at the moment. If you have a Yehat, an Utwig, a Thraddash, a Vux, an Ur-Quan and a Mycon for every Pkunk type of alien, then I do not mind. Orz were also cartoony and a bit childish but the impression was somewhat different. 

Again, this is not about the quality of animation, this is about how I perceive the alien. Bottom line: devs, please, show us the background, give us the whole picture on this guy.

Imagine the impression one could get from seeing the Umgah animation w/o the background of their ship or showing just a Pkunk as an example of an alien in SC2 . 

Quoting Lone_Utwig, reply 14

Hmm... can we see the background animation for that "you can trust" guy. Maybe when we get a full picture and not just the animation of the alien it all shines in a different color? 

But I tend to agree... it is not about cartoony look (has anyone seen Mr Pickles?  Rick and Morty? Duck Tales? Robotech? Those are all cartoons but their styles are so different )... it is about the alien being too childish. This is not Sesame street or StarFox, this is Star Control after all. I do not mind having one or two aliens who might be childish in their look so that my kids would like to hug them.... if we have 20 aliens and 1 or 2 of them are like that - no problem. This alien is like a Pkunk for me at the moment. If you have a Yehat, an Utwig, a Thraddash, a Vux, an Ur-Quan and a Mycon for every Pkunk type of alien, then I do not mind. Orz were also cartoony and a bit childish but the impression was somewhat different. 

Again, this is not about the quality of animation, this is about how I perceive the alien. Bottom line: devs, please, show us the background, give us the whole picture on this guy.

Imagine the impression one could get from seeing the Umgah animation w/o the background of their ship or showing just a Pkunk as an example of an alien in SC2 . 

This is a great point! And I know how they can fix this one. Put something in the background that COMPLETELY juxtaposes his silly kiddie nature. Like a severed head! Or maybe he's standing on a pile of ten thousand dollars skulls! Or maybe several chained up prisoners in the background. With hooks stabbing into them. 

Whimsy... but mature. 

First let me say yes, the artwork for those aliens is nice. But would any of those images fit in Star Control? Absolutely not. They lack character, are not fun, and are not whimsical, and do not bring out any strong emotions. 

I'm going to be very critical here for a moment, so I am by no means saying any of the games mentioned are bad titles. But would you recognize the difference between any of those aliens and the aliens in Star Drive? Masters of Orion? Rebel Galaxy? or any number of the other space exploration and 4x space games that are out or coming out right now? To be honest they are unmemorable and they are all copies of designs from one another. You have the bird race, the reptile race, the insect race, the amphibian race, the robot race. Then looking at them vast majority are on humanoid type bodies. The lack of actual creativity in alien design is missing from 95% of the games out there. 

One of the core tenants that makes Star Control is that it fools you into believing that you are in a serious universe but then tosses the most outlandish things at you. Zot-Fot-Pik, Spathi, Thraddash anyone? Star Control characters are caricatures of emotions, stereotypes, philosophical ideals, and humor. They have true character to them (beyond just the visual).

I agree *Some* characters need to be very whimsical, others need to be serious, some need to make you just wonder about the galaxy you exist in.

So when you meet the ******** for the first time, are you going to trust them? Do they strike you as being trustworthy? Does he look friendly enough that you would let your children play with him?  

Star Trek Aliens, all of them. (Though some of the fungal designs in Stellaris are unique-ish.)

But even though it is meant to be a used car salesman caricature, this unnamed alien could also be classified with them... so... ::shrug::

Vaelzad - you are completely correct about Stellaris. And 95% of the space games out there. I played Rebel Galaxy 75 hours and can't remember a single alien. Same goes for Stellaris - I played all night last night and STILL never found even one alien that was memorable, and my God, an Avian head on a humanoid body?! Blasphemy against the Imperium of Man. We are the only creatures perfect enough to have that body. And every point you made is so spot-on, I've never doubted you guys knowing your stuff and being in the right mindset. Endless Space, Star Drive, Rebel Galaxy, Stellaris - not a single one of them has a memorable alien (except the giant samurai bear people maybe... But even then, that's just an earth creature with an earth background!!!). 

The original post was solely about the style, not the content - a guarded warning - please don't make them TOO comical, TOO cartoony, TOO stylistically goofball so as to not appeal to the general public. Again, I bring up CIV 6 from YESTERDAY. The world despises a game they've never seen played because of the "new, cartoony graphics". Aim for the Pkunk if you're going silly - the Art is magnificent. Whimsy and stylish, but realistically painted. 

This is the real question. Is it the world or just a vocal minority, and/or people who are afraid of change? To stay on the Civ 6 topic. I think they are doing a lot of things right in that image. It's a lot less noisy compared to the old terrain. You can clearly see landmarks, buildings, units, and features. There is an elegance and cleanliness about it that makes it more visually appealing. 

It may also make sense that this visual style may be appealing to more people. Games with a very similar style, Clash of Clans for example has an active user base of around 30 million players. Civilization 5 was at 8.5 million. Neither of those sales are numbers to scoff at but it's obvious that CoC has a much larger player base.  If a game can be more appealing visually to get people's interest then it is an avenue to investigate. After all if a game doesn't make its money back the developers cannot make another and the CIV team budget isn't exactly small.

With regards to the style we can even look at a failed game as an example: Age of Empires Online. What ultimately doomed the game wasn't their graphical implementation of a stylistic visual but rather a horrible pay to win game design, and bad game balance. In fact their stylistic visual is one of the things people remember fondly about the game.

It's a proven scientific fact that bright bold color pallets are more visually appealing to people. People usually associate bright bold colors and friendly shapes with fun and having a good time. Just look at children's toys, movies, playgrounds, and adult slot machines. 

So, we ARE gonna have some whimsical, Alice in Wonderland aliens. Glad to hear that! 

All this talk of aliens has made me think of a race that might be kind-of cool in Star Control.  This is based on an old joke among SFB players that would take too long to explain here, but the short version is that the Orions (pirates with optional weapon mounts) able to use a particularly bad combination of systems that results in the Orion "shooting itself" if it uses those two systems in the wrong order at the wrong time.  It is the only way in the game that a ship can "shoot itself".

You could base a race on this old joke.  In SFB this combination is Hellbore Cannons and an Expanding Sphere Generator.  So you could have a ship that had a similar combination, in SFB it is a weapon design to envelope and implode on its target damaging all six shields and a defensive energy barrier.  SC could have a ship that had some type of temporary energy barrier and weapon that interacts with it, resulting in the ship damaging itself if it fires when the barrier is up.  Then, the background story for this race could play off the humor of them being the only race in the game that can shoot themselves, kind like how the Spathi were cowards and their ship design matched that story.

LOL! VAELZAD - that's two comparisons to shitty free-to-play games that suck the souls from their victims! Don't ever do that again!

Okay. I'm going to settle this once and for all - this is what I'm talking about - and I finally remembered a cartoon-like game that demonstrates what I'm talking about.

Here's a picture of the Ilwrath:

Hand-painted and cartoon-like? Sure. Hints of realism, definitely. But still whimsical and goofy (the way he plucks the strings of his web), while also being legitimately scary. Excellent.

Here's a CARTOON spider:

Here's another Cartoon spider, with more detail:

DO NOT WANT.

Which brings me to a game that has a cartoon-like feel, but the spiders are serious and enough to give you the shivers, while also NOT AT ALL belonging on a kids' show. Don't Starve!! It's a perfect example that marries a whimsical feel with a cartoon-like aesthetic! Here's the spider from Don't Starve:

They're like a SERIOUS Cartoon. Does anybody understand what I mean now? Look back up at the Ilwrath. It's a serious cartoon.

I would personally say YouCanTrustHim.mov adheres more to the CARTOON aesthetic of the middle two spider drawings, as opposed to the Star Control and Don't Starve cartoon-aesthetic.

Really, is there no better word for all this than Cartoon? It's so broad!!!

I think in general you make the primary bad guys serious, and the primary good guys too.  But you also have "comedy" aliens like SC is known for, like the Orz or the Shofixti.  In fact, a race that can shoot themselves like I mentioned above would make a good Shofixti-like race.  They could be pretty funny, suicidal.  Ready to shoot themselves at the slightest transgression (whatever that is for them).  You are always having to talk them out of shooting themselves when you talk too them.

It is a mix of both, isn't it?  Ur-Quan, Korh-Ah, and Ilwrath are pretty serious.  The Thraddash, Orz, and Spathi are not.

They also all fail the vertical mouth flip test...

Not menacing, but looks pissed off and outraged....

Not menacing... And sad now. She needs a hug.

Even MORE menacing!!!

I'm not talking just about personality - even the serious ones like the Ilwrath were funny and idiotic. How they would announce their loins are quivering or whatever when Dogar and Kazon spoke to them, or when they went into battle, gave them some hilarious counterpoints to their violent tendencies. Maybe my point would be better-served by showing the different versions of how serious/cartoony the more silly characters in Star Control. I'm limited by what I find with Google, but I think this represents my point pretty well:

1) The original SCII look that we all love of the Pkunk:

2) A Cartoony version I found online that I don't think matches the art style at all:

Does that match the cartoon style of the first drawing? No. This one's kid-friendly (Same with the YouCanTrustHim.mov animated guy). Both the Pkunks above are brightly colored! Both have that pleasing bright colored palette! Both are painted! Neither of them look like a "real" bird. But one is a serious LOOKING cartoon (Like Archer?) and the other one is a cartoon LOOKING cartoon. And then we can contrast both of those with this REALISTIC depiction of the Pkunk that NONE OF US WANT IN THE GAME:

OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where'd all those nostrils come from?!?!?!?