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April Update - You can't trust him (animation)

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April Update - You can't trust him (animation)

from StarControl Forums

Hold up, Stardock. We're losing it a bit here with the "You can trust him" animation movie. You guys have to understand... 

When, in the past, you have said you're going for a cartoony look for the aliens, I think I've finally distinguished what I don't agree with about that statement. 

Star Control II WAS NOT CARTOONISH. It was, instead, WHIMSICAL in design. The newest animation just leans too far in the other direction - it looks like a cartoon. A caricature of an alien, a bopping, silly, Pixar cartoon for children. 

While the original Star Control was silly and fun - it was by no means, a cartoon. This distinction must be made going forward. 

The Tywom, imo, had the same flaw. It looked like the sidekick on a baby's show on Sprout. You know the one! The goofy puppet that laughs hysterically when the main human character says something kids think is funny!

The Mukay was different - serious, real looking, like it COULD exist outside of Nickelodeon. It rocks. Same goes for the alien with the sentient Palm Pilot. This You Can Trust Him guy, however, looks like he should be on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. 

You have to make the distinction. There was nothing cartoony about SCII. It was whimsical! It was irreverent! It was hilarious! But it was invariably serious. Very serious. And that needs to come through. 

Sure the Pkunk design was painted. And it was a weird character and very animated - but mass suicide/genocide at the hands of your long lost evolutionary species brothers-turned-warlords (Yehat) is not for kids. 

196,023 views 63 replies
Reply #26 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 25


Quoting Kavik_Kang,
reply 23

I think in general you make the primary bad guys serious, and the primary good guys too.  But you also have "comedy" aliens like SC is known for, like the Orz or the Shofixti.  In fact, a race that can shoot themselves like I mentioned above would make a good Shofixti-like race.  They could be pretty funny, suicidal.  Ready to shoot themselves at the slightest transgression (whatever that is for them).  You are always having to talk them out of shooting themselves when you talk too them.

It is a mix of both, isn't it?  Ur-Quan, Korh-Ah, and Ilwrath are pretty serious.  The Thraddash, Orz, and Spathi are not.

 



I'm not talking just about personality - even the serious ones like the Ilwrath were funny and idiotic. How they would announce their loins are quivering or whatever when Dogar and Kazon spoke to them, or when they went into battle, gave them some hilarious counterpoints to their violent tendencies. Maybe my point would be better-served by showing the different versions of how serious/cartoony the more silly characters in Star Control. I'm limited by what I find with Google, but I think this represents my point pretty well:

1) The original SCII look that we all love of the Pkunk:



2) A Cartoony version I found online that I don't think matches the art style at all:



Does that match the cartoon style of the first drawing? No. This one's kid-friendly (Same with the YouCanTrustHim.mov animated guy). Both the Pkunks above are brightly colored! Both have that pleasing bright colored palette! Both are painted! Neither of them look like a "real" bird. But one is a serious LOOKING cartoon (Like Archer?) and the other one is a cartoon LOOKING cartoon. And then we can contrast both of those with this REALISTIC depiction of the Pkunk that NONE OF US WANT IN THE GAME:

 

OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where'd all those nostrils come from?!?!?!?

 

Her beak? :3

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

@Volusanius - no, silly - look at the original, canon Pkunk! Do you see 4 weird, disfigured nostrils on the side of her beak?!? No. They just invented them for The-Game-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

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Reply #28 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 27

@Volusanius - no, silly - look at the original, canon Pkunk! Do you see 4 weird, disfigured nostrils on the side of her beak?!? No. They just invented them for The-Game-That-Cannot-Be-Named.

Yeah. The Pkunk in that title were complicated for me, because I felt like the voice acting was actually fairly well done, but the muppet was just...ghastly. Out of all of the races in that, the ones that felt the most Star Control like were ironically post-domination K'tang. I think that brings up another important point, the voice acting should absolutely match the visuals. That seems silly to say, since we have little frame of reference for how these races are supposed to sound, but we have a pretty good idea of how races sound in Star Control.

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Reply #29 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 28


Quoting cuorebrave,
reply 27

@Volusanius - no, silly - look at the original, canon Pkunk! Do you see 4 weird, disfigured nostrils on the side of her beak?!? No. They just invented them for The-Game-That-Cannot-Be-Named.



Yeah. The Pkunk in that title were complicated for me, because I felt like the voice acting was actually fairly well done, but the muppet was just...ghastly. Out of all of the races in that, the ones that felt the most Star Control like were ironically post-domination K'tang. I think that brings up another important point, the voice acting should absolutely match the visuals. That seems silly to say, since we have little frame of reference for how these races are supposed to sound, but we have a pretty good idea of how races sound in Star Control.

I'm old school Star Control II, buddy - no voice acting for me! I've never actually heard any of the voices of the aliens and I'd actually kinda like to keep it that way! 

Reply #30 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 29


Quoting Volusianus,
reply 28






Quoting cuorebrave,

reply 27


@Volusanius - no, silly - look at the original, canon Pkunk! Do you see 4 weird, disfigured nostrils on the side of her beak?!? No. They just invented them for The-Game-That-Cannot-Be-Named.



Yeah. The Pkunk in that title were complicated for me, because I felt like the voice acting was actually fairly well done, but the muppet was just...ghastly. Out of all of the races in that, the ones that felt the most Star Control like were ironically post-domination K'tang. I think that brings up another important point, the voice acting should absolutely match the visuals. That seems silly to say, since we have little frame of reference for how these races are supposed to sound, but we have a pretty good idea of how races sound in Star Control.



I'm old school Star Control II, buddy - no voice acting for me! I've never actually heard any of the voices of the aliens and I'd actually kinda like to keep it that way! 

 

I started without voice, but once I went voiced, I can't go back. Paul and Fred did great with the characters they voiced, and I guess the other actors and actresses too ;P

Reply #31 from StarControl Forums Top

@cuorebrave

Well, you do know they're not gonna "keep it that way"... As for me, I loved 3DO version voice-overs.

Reply #32 from StarControl Forums Top

I don't feel that either the alien designs or voice acting ultimately detracted from SC3. On the contrary, I really loved all of the voice acting and felt it was probably the single most complimentary part of the game.

SC3 was the black sheep of the franchise not just because it attempted to do something different from SC2, but because it failed terribly at doing so. The puppets were sort of a byproduct of their time in an era where FMV gaming was a big deal. Could they have been done better? Sure, but I don't feel they ruined the game. I didn't even mind that they tried to reimagine some of the aliens like the Pkunk and Arilou, and I actually enjoyed the Spathi reimagining and thought it was a clever design. Most of the puppetry was pretty lame and that's what gave it such a cheesy vibe.

The ACTUAL things that ruined SC3 beyond reproach were:

  • absolutely zero flagship navigation (pointing and clicking on stars and planets and watching a red +1 icon slide next to you to signify encounters)
  • useless and underdeveloped colony management feature not even being a factor within the context of gameplay (and ultimately kind of a waste of time)
  • a story was ultimately average at best with poorly motivated and unsympathetic villains (the Ur-Quan were tragic victims you could almost feel bad for)
  • whoever wrote the awful fucking music that came to represent the "soundtrack" deserves to be skinned alive

But the voice acting of SC3 I hardly take issue with. It was actually probably the most positive attribute to me.

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Reply #34 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 31

@cuorebrave

Well, you do know they're not gonna "keep it that way"... As for me, I loved 3DO version voice-overs.

No, I know there's voice acting in SCR! I was saying I'd like to" keep it that way" regarding the voice acting in SCII! I've had 20 years to create the perfect voice for each one of my alien friends and foes alike, in my head.... I'm not entirely sure they could live up to my imagination! 

On the other note, now that it's been kicked open - SC3 wasn't a travesty because of the voice acting - I honestly don't remember it being bad. And the puppets were - interesting to say the least! Some designs were cool! Spathi looked like a penis, though.... And the Syreen were no longer a sex symbol, but some weird, wrinkled gypsy... Whatever she was, I didn't appreciate that. It was very clear the Syreen were gorgeous. And it's that kind of faithlessness (is that a word? Faithfulness is! Opposite should be too!) to the original that made it so many enemies.

As for the story, I know everyone hated it for the most part - and it was more shoddily made and soddily maintained - but, I thought the big twist about the precursors was actually kind of awesome! They knew there was a group of exterminators, set to arrive and rid the Galaxy of all sentient life. They knew they couldn't stop it. So they busted themselves down to non-sentience to be spared? Sort of ingenious! 

But it's weird you brought this up as your number 1 point on what tanked the sequel - because it seems so small, yet for me? Had the exact same, enormous negative impact: Click-to-move. I can't even tell you how dejected I was because of that. The designers probably thought, "This is such a tiny thing, I doubt anyone will notice..." yet they couldn't have been more wrong... 

The colonies, instead of resource gathering on the planet surface, was the single most tone-deaf and misguided decision of the whole thing. They probably thought, "phew - all this resource gathering is tedious and repetitive. Let's fix that." *creates the worst, most boring, half-assed, soulless game mechanic in history* "Sweet! No more slurping up resources in your lander!" yeah. That guy needs to be burned. They just had NO CLUE what Star Control was about. None. 

Reply #35 from StarControl Forums Top

For the record, I'd like to say that I like the "cartoony" look that is shown in Civilization 6. Given that there are several dozen important points of attention on the screen having the elements clearly visible in high contrast and with little to muddle understanding is good.

I also want to stress that the "YouCanTrustHim" guy is too cartoony. He's looks too zany and targeted at 5 year-olds. I *can* picture him as somebody I'd want in StarControl - but then as a comic-relief sidekick for the player and (this is important) the thing would be known to be artificial or a hologram (to explain away the cartoon face). I guess that is really what it comes down to. There's a suspension of disbelief for aliens, no matter how zany or preposterous, provided that within their own context they are "realistic". A cartoon face (of the zany 5-year-old-friendly variety) just breaks the illusion.

Other than the cartoon face the guy looks great actually. I completely buy the ears, hair, animation - no complaints. But the eyes, eyebrows, mouth... the, well, the face.

Perhaps a way to make "Him" palatable would be to explain that his species was bio-engineered specifically to appeal to small children - alas from those humble beginnings various forms of tragedy struck and now we've got a whole star-faring race of them. Where something like that would work for one alien, it's hardly a viable approach for most aliens.

...

Contrast the alien with the sample art for the teazer in the April update. I love them! They look badass but at the same time all-age friendly. I picture a weathered and bearded Admiral on one of those (definitely not a little animorphed kiwi that spouts catch-phrases).

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Reply #36 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting HenriHakl, reply 35

For the record, I'd like to say that I like the "cartoony" look that is shown in Civilization 6. Given that there are several dozen important points of attention on the screen having the elements clearly visible in high contrast and with little to muddle understanding is good.

I also want to stress that the "YouCanTrustHim" guy is too cartoony. He's looks too zany and targeted at 5 year-olds. I *can* picture him as somebody I'd want in StarControl - but then as a comic-relief sidekick for the player and (this is important) the thing would be known to be artificial or a hologram (to explain away the cartoon face). I guess that is really what it comes down to. There's a suspension of disbelief for aliens, no matter how zany or preposterous, provided that within their own context they are "realistic". A cartoon face (of the zany 5-year-old-friendly variety) just breaks the illusion.

Other than the cartoon face the guy looks great actually. I completely buy the ears, hair, animation - no complaints. But the eyes, eyebrows, mouth... the, well, the face.

Perhaps a way to make "Him" palatable would be to explain that his species was bio-engineered specifically to appeal to small children - alas from those humble beginnings various forms of tragedy struck and now we've got a whole star-faring race of them. Where something like that would work for one alien, it's hardly a viable approach for most aliens.

...

Contrast the alien with the sample art for the teazer in the April update. I love them! They look badass but at the same time all-age friendly. I picture a weathered and bearded Admiral on one of those (definitely not a little animorphed kiwi that spouts catch-phrases).

 

On a related note, can we get a 2 animated, animorphed kiwi that spouts catch-phrases for tutorials? :D

 

EDIT: I'm kidding. Really. Don't do this. And you're absolutely on-point in regards to the difference between cartoony for aesthetic purposes and cartoony for functional purposes. Form follows function. However, I feel like Star Control is somewhere in the middle.

Reply #37 from StarControl Forums Top

(DEEEP breath).  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff... (deep breath).  

 

Let's play a game. Description:

Completely toony movement that defies the laws of physics. Looks like it is made out of glazed play-doh.  Mouth is disproportionate. There is no bone structure.  Eyes are completely flat and disproportionately big. Teeth have no details. Overly expressive.

 

Now, find the one  picture that doesn't belong to the above description:

      

 

       

 

Am I alone to find that the description matches all 5 pictures?

 

I understand wanting to please as wide a player base as possible.  This being said, by trying to get more players at one end of the age spectrum, you lose others at the other end of the spectrum.

 

When I add the toon to the general look of the planets, which I'm REALLY not sold on, I have to utter the trademarked "I got a baaaad feeling about this."

 

So far, I'm very happy with the proposed scope and ambition, but severely underwhelmed by the execution.

 

Your move, Stardock.

Reply #38 from StarControl Forums Top

These photos not showing up for anyone else? 

Reply #39 from StarControl Forums Top

That alien in the video looks like it is from something that my 5 year old kid would like. Star Control aliens should have something that appeals to a more mature audience. Most of the fans of the series are over 30. The original aliens still work for me. This doesn't. I need something different in some kind of funny, threatening,or otherwise smart way. 

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Reply #40 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Tovanion, reply 37

(DEEEP breath).  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff... (deep breath).  

 

Let's play a game. Description:

Completely toony movement that defies the laws of physics. Looks like it is made out of glazed play-doh.  Mouth is disproportionate. There is no bone structure.  Eyes are completely flat and disproportionately big. Teeth have no details. Overly expressive.

 

Now, find the one  picture that doesn't belong to the above description:

      

 

       

 

Am I alone to find that the description matches all 5 pictures?

 

I understand wanting to please as wide a player base as possible.  This being said, by trying to get more players at one end of the age spectrum, you lose others at the other end of the spectrum.

 

When I add the toon to the general look of the planets, which I'm REALLY not sold on, I have to utter the trademarked "I got a baaaad feeling about this."

 

So far, I'm very happy with the proposed scope and ambition, but severely underwhelmed by the execution.

 

Your move, Stardock.

None of your images belong to that description.  :grin:

Reply #41 from StarControl Forums Top

I very, very, very strongly dislike the "You can trust him" animation. It doesn't look like an alien so much as an emoji. Pair that with spaceships (see: the concept art included in April Vault letter) that look like GI Joe toys I would have owned in the 80s and things aren't looking very promising at all.

I dig the squid-alien from a couple vaults back, but I strongly dislike the planets, love the "rejected" realistic UI concept art (other than the alien being too humanoid), and this animation seems to be pushing things even further into "cheap, obnoxious children's CG television" territory.

Were this a less-common species known as Imogee, and were the game to skew more grounded and believable in the art design, it would be hilarious. But given how everything seems to be intentionally skewing toward "crappy Hollywood CG cartoon", I don't expect that's going to be the case at all.

P.S. For the record, I love the vibe of Stellaris aliens, and it's what I personally hoped for here... even if they are too "humanoid Star Trek alien" for a game like Star Control.

Reply #42 from StarControl Forums Top

How is That ↑ more "cartoony" than This ↓ ?

It's not. Besides, we didn't even see the environment he's in. You guys gotta relax until we do.

Reply #43 from StarControl Forums Top

Let's try this again.

------------------------------------------------

(DEEEP breath).  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff is pre-alpha.  This stuff... (deep breath).  

 

Let's play a game. Description:

Completely toony movement that defies the laws of physics. Looks like it is made out of glazed play-doh.  Mouth is disproportionate. There is no bone structure.  Eyes are completely flat and disproportionately big. Teeth have no details. Overly expressive.

 

Now, find the one  picture that doesn't belong to the above description:

       

 

    

 

 

 

Am I alone to find that the description matches all 5 pictures?

 

I understand wanting to please as wide a player base as possible.  This being said, by trying to get more players at one end of the age spectrum, you lose others at the other end of the spectrum.

 

When I add the toon to the general look of the planets, which I'm REALLY not sold on, I have to utter the trademarked "I got a baaaad feeling about this."

 

So far, I'm very happy with the proposed scope and ambition, but severely underwhelmed by the execution.

 

Your move, Stardock.

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Reply #44 from StarControl Forums Top

The difference is that none of those look like human faces. Or emojis. The fact that he looks like an emoji is a major problem for me.*

* Unless that's the joke (see my earlier comment)

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Reply #45 from StarControl Forums Top

How is That ↑ more "cartoony" than This ↓ ?

Don't confuse the art style with cartoony. The thing that breaks the suspension of disbelief in the former are the exaggerated eyes/mouth.

To be fair - I'm fairly harsh in the criticism. The alien is well executed on many levels. Heck, he could make a mascot or travel companion. He could even be the "front" of a more sinister alien race. But the overly emphasized facial range leaves a tremendously immature impression.

 Edit: and you're right of course: context is everything - we're just working with what we got for now

 

Reply #46 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting veraxus, reply 44

The difference is that none of those look like human faces. Or emojis. The fact that he looks like an emoji is a major problem for me.*

* Unless that's the joke (see my earlier comment)

Could it be the Yellow color?

Does this feel different?

Reply #47 from StarControl Forums Top

Now it just looks like the secret bat character from Rampage: World Tour :P

Reply #48 from StarControl Forums Top

I'd like to see Stardock's take on grotesque and frightening aliens. This new alien is meh compared to the Mukay, but they clearly can do cute. That said, I've yet to see an alien not reminiscent of a cuddly toon plushie here. Even that smartphone overlord race looks like all they really need is a great big hug and a kiss from me to you.

Reply #49 from StarControl Forums Top

The most interesting thing to me in the April update was the silhouette of the ship that is 3 pieces not connected together, there are so many different things that I could do with that I can't even begin to try and guess what they might be doing with that.  There are a lot of really cool things that ship might do.

I like the little alien as a concept, but he seems incomplete.  Like a "flat" original series Star Trek ship with no hull plate seams, or ridges, or "portholes".  It looks like the base of something that could become really good, but is missing detail in a way that I have no idea because I am retarded at art.  I have a theory that most people are a genius at something, even if they've never realized what it is, and everyone is also retarded at something... even if they don't know what it is.  In my case, I am at least lucky enough to know that I am retarded when it comes to the aesthetics of art.  So I am not even capable of describing what detail is missing, only that it seems to me like something is.

 

Reply #50 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 49

The most interesting thing to me in the April update was the silhouette of the ship that is 3 pieces not connected together, there are so many different things that I could do with that I can't even begin to try and guess what they might be doing with that.  There are a lot of really cool things that ship might do.

I like the little alien as a concept, but he seems incomplete.  Like a "flat" original series Star Trek ship with no hull plate seams, or ridges, or "portholes".  It looks like the base of something that could become really good, but is missing detail in a way that I have no idea because I am retarded at art.  I have a theory that most people are a genius at something, even if they've never realized what it is, and everyone is also retarded at something... even if they don't know what it is.  In my case, I am at least lucky enough to know that I am retarded when it comes to the aesthetics of art.  So I am not even capable of describing what detail is missing, only that it seems to me like something is.

 

Dude... You NEVER go full-retard. 

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