You seem to be missing the point.

I dont actually see anywhere in this post that I said they hardcounter LRFs. Even so it does not matter my point still stand LRFS suck now.

@Riddleking if you face me on ico I will crush your LRF fleet. LRFs are not good anymore. I have never lost to anyone who uses LRFS. YOu have never played with me, you probably dont own rebellion(I have not seen you defend this accusation once), stop speaking.

Edit: @Zombie and Kulliv: http://www.sendspace.com/file/p2gqai

You want more proof here is me killing LRFS with flak and the Corsev(Woah I didnt start out with the Akkan riddleking!) eventually I get HC's there is not enough time to get enough LRFs. I even beat them with LFS in my fleet which took minimal damage. Now can we put this to rest and just accept that LRFs are not viable. They are in the same position as LFs in diplomacy. For the record I am Samurai[LA]

You pointed me at a post to explain your position that said hard counter.

I'll add my two cents, though no one will probably agree with me; and I'm sure someone will stoop low enough to call me a "noob" but hey it's a free world.

I play sins for the strategy side of it and I played all the way from the original sins with the original Kortul right through the bugged illuminators... For the most part there has always been multiple counters for any special. Sure, a couple counters rely in part with other buffs and combos but I have always been bothered by the ineffectiveness to easily deal with a repulse happy advent player.

In my mind there's a perfect ship already in the game, stat wise, damage wise, lore wise. What brought balance to early carrier rushes? (No, everyone going straight to carrier rush is not balance) Corvettes. Corvettes will probably be nerfed again anyways, so why not let them be the expendible unit they are? Corvettes in my mind SHOULD be the perfect easy counter to repulse spam. If bombers arent repulsed by it, neither should corvettes. At least it will force the advent player to use some of that antimatter on shield bubbles. Let repulse deal with the rest of the fleet, I'm fine with that, the whole point of repulse is to buy you a little bit of time and take the pressure off your fleet, not to just plow right through the enemy fleet like it's not there... Don't buff any of the other capital ship abilities range, I agree that would throw too much else out of sync. But corvettes would finally have a very tight role at specializing at taking down single, high priority targets in the enemy fleet, much as they should. On top of that, the advent loyalist titan will give significant damage reductions to it's backing guardians, while the rebel advent have significantly better shield mitigation techs. This would seem to offer the best balance to me.

Bombers are still the clear counter for taking out, well anything really, but in a situation similar to this, where they had enough eco to build a pair of halcyons, you still have SOMETHING to throw at them that will be slightly less of a feed for their titan.

Just my two cents. Feedback?

Could work considering they do composite damage.

For those of you who care....

100 Garda Flak vs. 100 LRMs

Winner: Garda Flak (36% losses)

*Note: minimal micro of placing flak near center of LRM fleet was used

30 Percheron Carriers with fighters vs. 105 LRMs

Winner: Percheron Carriers with fighters (37% losses)

*Note: no carrier kiting was used

120 Shriken Corvettes vs. 90 LRMs

Winner: Shriken Corvettes (44% losses)

40 Kodiaks vs. 100 LRMs

Winner: Kodiaks (55% losses)

30 Percheron Carriers with bombers vs. 105 LRMs

Winner: LRMs (72% losses)

*Note: no carrier kiting was used

80 Colbalts vs. 100 LRMs

Winner: LRMs (25% losses)

LRMs got crushed by flak, fighters, and Corvettes...

LRMs were beaten pretty bad by HCs...

LRMs barely beat bombers (and that was with no kiting)...

Only thing LRMs clearly perform well against is LFs...

I'd also like to mention that only TEC units were used...TEC units, which could be described as having:

• BEST LRF
• WORST fighter and bomber
• MEDIOCORE flak
• MEDIOCORE LF

It's been awhile since I've ran the tests, but I'm pretty sure TEC also has the weakest heavy cruiser...don't know about Corvettes...anyway, the point is that I pitted the best LRF against the worst or 2nd best ships of their class...had I done this against Advent ships, the results would have not favored the LRM as much...

Do what you want with this information...but if you come at me with LRF spam, my go-to counter is going to be flak...

Direct confrontations are certain valuable information, but IMo they don't necessarily portray the whole picture.  The LRM has superior firepower per cost in general to most other frigates and can be used at extreme ranges.  It's like saying artillary is useless because in a  straight fight where the enemy is free to drive their tanks right up to it and have a shootout it would lose.

The reason it get's stomped in direct confrontations is it's poor survivability and vulnerability to a number of damage types.  In actual fleet battles there are other factors which can be used to mitigate that poor survivability.  

Advent have guardians,progen shield regen, and repulse

Vasari have overseers, Repair cloud, beefy ships in general, and subverters to disable sections of the enemy fleet targeting their LRM

TEC loyals have their titan's AoE shield & hoshikos

TEC rebels sadly only have hoshikos

Keep the enemy from effectively making your LRM frigate dead and you're left with a unit with one of the highest focusfire potentials in the game.  The antimedium damage type is still one of the most versatile ones in the game, and LRM frigates still have one of the best DPS:supply values among frigates.

While TEC obviously have the least in the way of such tools, they also have the most efficient single target DPS: fleet supply ratio on their LRM and a much better economy to boot(which means making trades resulting in a battle of attrition is to their benefit).  And with the focus fire potential of LRM I can't imagine they aren't inflicting casualties in the enemy ranks even if the LRM do bite the dust.

And while a bunch of ships may win against LRM is a void, the reality of large fleet battles is those ships may have other priority targets(for example the flak will likely being targeting fighters/corvettes first, during which time LRM are free to DPS).

Heck, even not accounting for the presence of other ships, using number like 100 give an obvious edge to some ship type(obviously high numbers of each side are more beneficial to the flak frigates then LRM as it makes it easier to keep all banks firing and reach a critical mass where all the flak frigate's individually small DPS come together to start dropping LRM frigates fast).

Not saying LRM frigate balance is perfect- just saying that while I do appreciate that you provide evidence, a straight matchup between a large mass of ships of one type against a fleet entirely composed of another type don't really account for all of the complexities of real fleet combat- there's more at play then raw "X beats Y in a fight so it's a better ship".  Just like capitalship balance can't be determined by having capitalships fight each other 1v1.

I will concede your results probably mean the LRM frigate have limited use early game- at which stage players have small fleets and less synergy so raw "X beats Y" is a bigger component of victory.  Specifically early game LRM is now probably only good for:

1). killing LF

2). killing structures(but bombers are better)

3). killing capitalships(probably still the best for wounding capitalships enough to make them need to flee- but corvettes are almost as good and far superior at actually finishing off the fleeing capitalship)

Which is certainly  rather limited as compared to say Flak frigates or corvettes.  But being that LF counter flak, LRM still are a necessary tool in the proverbial rocks-paper-scissors of early game ship counters.

Ugh... your original argument wasn't that Flak > LRMs, it was that LRMs + Akkan wouldn't kill Guardians with repulse. That's the whole premise of this whine-fest is that you felt you had no counters to repulse.

do you people arguing lrm is weak in fire-power even know what the command cruiser does with designate target at an actual 9000km range as opposed to repulses 7500km?

I don't think the firepower of the LRM (or LRFs in general) is what's being questioned...

yes it is--read their posts. Why are they trolling that lrm can't kill guardians then?

@Riddle: No its not we've definitely said that LRF's can kill guardians, but they don't do it well, and you will lose if you build LRFs because almost everything n the standard army right now counters them. Javelis suck. Firepower was never the question it was killing guardians and LRFS are not effective against them. Stop straw manning.

@Bilun: I disagree, LRFs are no longer necessary in my replay above(not in the OP). I demonstrate this once you open with corvettes you are effectively halting the earliest time that someone can open with LRFs, now to actually counter corvettes you need to get flak(Which just so happens to also counter LRFs), now from here you CAN build LF's to counter Flak OR you can continue in the path of countering the previous unit and go heavies and other cruisers. There is no viable way to actually mass LRFs as you can not build them from the start the square.. counter... thing is flawed

@Kullvok:

1. You cannot actually get a critical mass of them because they are no longer a viable opener due to Corvettes.
2. To counter Corvettes you build Flak which also counter Javelis
3. To counter Flak you can do two things, which are build LF's. Which would then allow you to build Javelis OR rush straight for heavies which have a better payoff because.
1. They are not easily killed by Titans and will not feed it. Also en masse of around 20 they melt titans.
2. Javelis on the other hand are squishy, feed the titan and dont actually counter Guardians.
4. So riddleking, here is a small lesson for you and what you have assumed. The TEC no longer favors the javelis design, to be honest they are now in the same position as diplomacy LF's are.
5. The suggestions you are suggesting to actually counter Guardians is stupid. A titan cost 9500/1200/750. A guardian is dirt cheap. The same goes for Capital ships, sure maybe I could get muiltiple akkan, now hes going to destroy my fleet because those resources were not put into Heavies.~Me

"Javelis do suck when almost every single unit built in the game does large amounts of damage to them;P javelis primary design as to be anti-medium a counter to LF's which are also no longer built.
Corvettes, Flak, Heavies" ~Me

Please read the thread before posting anymore.

Again, not to disagree with anything you said, but to throw out other possibilities.

Pulling back and building a Dunov (or two) would have probably ripped those Guardians (and the Titan) right up by killing their antimatter and shields, worthwhile investment IMO, probably about equivilent in cost too, seeing as he had, what, 8 Guardians? One Guardian alone is indeed dirt cheap, but that's not going to repulse anything for very long.

I'm also acting under the reasonable presumption that you had the economic advantage anyway seeing as how you were winning prior to him building those Guardians.

He actually had 15 guardians, he just spammed them with destras(small amounts). Im not saying it will not work, but to me it seems like the dunovs AM supply would not keep up with 15 guardians.

Something worth testing, at least, since you have to remember that the Dunov's EMP Burst is an AOE, quite a large one, even(3000 I think?)

Usually if a Dunov shows up when I'm Advent I throw everything I have at it since I don't like having half of my fleet's shields and antimatter depleted.

I have not looked but isn't the range of EMP very short(Last I checked the range of emp is 4500, although it does have an effective range we are talking about titan/guardian so it might not reach either.). While Repulsion is 7500

1 Flak versus 1 LRM: LRM Wins

100 Flak moderately upgraded versus 100 LRM with cluster and moderately upgraded: Wash

* same minimal micro used as above.

Flak: 2 hull, 4 armor, 2 weapon

LRM: 2 hull, 2 armor, 2 weapon, cluster

I just don't see how it's reasonable to pit 100 LRM against 100 Flak without assuming some upgrades occurred.

Edit I say wash, but 13% of the LRM survived.

meh, thats still not really a good number even if they did survive. Also realistically you will never have 100 LRMS vs 100 Flak. But thats nitpicking and such is the nature of theorycrafting.

Here is a replay of my Garda vs. LRM test...

I didn't record the first one (as I rule, I have autorecord off), so I had to do it again...chance would have it I got exactly the same results...

100 Garda flak vs. 100 LRMs

Winner: Garda flak (36% losses)

To prevent nit-picky semantics, I will describe the "minimal" microing used to manage the flak....the goal was simply to keep the flak in the middle of the enemy fleet...I accomplished this by giving move orders to sections of the garda fleet that would result in them moving through the enemy...as the gardas were crossing through the enemy fleet, I'd give them a stop order...for the stragglers on the edge, I'd give them move orders to "follow" a garda that was already in the middle...for the most part, all microing was down within the first couple minutes (I think I gave a move order near the end when some flak were a little far from the LRMs)...I estimate 20 or so total orders given (I really didn't count, that's a ballpark guess that is prone to guestimating error)...

I call this minimal micro because I feel a lot more could have been done to get the gardas more directly in the enemy's center, and didn't really micro at all after the first couple minutes...furthermore, if I was really hardcore, I'd have my flak do a close circle around the LRM to force them to turn all the time...

I think it is fair to say the number of ships is a little high for an early game comparision...but honestly, by mid game those numbers aren't hard to get...I think the real thing is that no one is going to build 100 LRMs because they have a very niche role now, and no one is going to build 100 flak because 50 is more than enough to do their job of killing fighters and corvettes (as a side note, I did 90 flak vs. 120 corvettes....only 5 flak died)....

I think the more respectable posts/comments describe LRFs' vulnerability to many other ships and to AoE abilties...so while they have great firepower for focusing on a single target (which honestly makes sense for a long range frigate), they are easy to kill...this relegates them to a mid-game/late-game role of snipers for killing high value targets (caps, SBs)...

But it doesn't really matter...LRMs and bombers are the TEC answer to iconus guardians...that, or simply saying screw it and taking your fleet elsewhere....

The simple truth of this game is that all economies being equal, the TEC attrition strategy beats out the advent "repulse to protect carriers" fleet strategy over time. 

Agreed. The complexity of Sins allows for numerous strategies that can leverage each other to counter your enemies and win games. I'm surprised that any serious member of this forum would demand a change in game mechanics because of a single loss to a single strategy.

I did, guy. That's the only reason I'm still trying to help you. But at least you showed that "Kullvok" guy who's boss. Every countering mechanic you listed is relevant to early-mid game, but this OP scenario was triggered by you attacking and almost finishing off an opponent late game. Your opponent then tried one simple, common counter against you and you folded like a cheap lawn chair under Michael Moore. So now that your pride is hurt, you feel you have to shut down every piece of advice people give you with some "hypothetically, he would have countered cuz that's what I would have done" BS.

I love MP Sins, I've been playing with friends a few times a month for about 3 years. And I lose about as many games as I win. Every game I lose, I man-up, say GG (and mean it) and go back to the strategy drawing-board for the next one. There have been times in the past that things have really upset balance in this game (Illums) but this ain't one of them. Take the loss and move on. 

Can we please stop with that sareth, can we be realistic. The TEC economy only applies if you are in eco position and you usually do not fleet until later in the game. Most of the fighting is done by a player in the off side who gets fed by whoever is in eco. Also if you actually went by that then I should of won the game I posted because clearly I had a far superior fleet (25 kodiaks, 20something garda, a lot of other ships and my capital.)

I don't see why economy keeps being brought up when the TEC player in question is not going eco, but is fleeting. Also a correction, repulse to protect titan strategy.

----

@Kull: Just stop talking. I've presented my point now it is not a late game problem. Its a balance problem. I have said enough and so has everyone else. I have made my point that LRF's are not viable as a counter to guardians. As riddle king pointed out bombers are apparently the counter which the advent actually can deal with quite well considering tele push and their carriers are better. I do not care about the replay kull I really do not my point is that the TEC have no way of actually beating this strategy. Because they do not, it has been said before that repulsion has always given TEC a problem because back then the Advent were weak early on and god better late game through repulse. The Advent no longer have a weak early game which has pushed repulse into a state of overpoweredness because LRF's cannot kill guardians anymore because massing them loses you the game. And as stated before carriers are easily countered by the Advent. The TEC have no way to beat them with abilities because no abilities reach through repulsion.

Do I really have to go on Kull? And for the record I do say GG everygame and I do not BM my opponents.

Also at that point in the game macroing out bombers would have been a bad idea because A) I could not get enough as bombers are not sufficiently that good at killing titans in the numbers I was allowed to make. B)Kodiaks form the backbone of advanced armies and is what let me hold off both of their forces at the same time. Stop thing stupid "should of got bombers" nonsense. My fleet was designed to counter their fleets at the time. And it did and just because he can pump out guardians at a cost effective price while percherons not only are expensive, they also have more fleet suppy by 14, and have a HUGE build time. While yes bombers do counter guardians they should not be the only counter. And the immediate tech switch you were expecting would not have been a viable thing to do at all.

The harsh tone in my sentences is because you are missing the main point of the entire thread because if you noticed this is hardly about the replay. The replay was used to bring awareness to what it actually does.

Just dropped in to see if this thread is still zombifying.  Carry on.

Uh-oh sareth, we have to shut up because he doesn't want to hear from us anymore... I wonder if he thinks that strategy works in Sins too?

No, Mayall, you don't have to go on, seeing as you "do not care about the replay" and therefore this thread that you made. And if the next section hurts too much, you can save yourself the trouble of making up an excuse that lets you off the hook for losing. I'm not writing it for you, I'm writing it for interested third parties who may want to learn from your mistakes.

To the TEC player who has an Advent opponent on the ropes and runs into repulse spam: Do not lose heart, wet your panties, and ragequit - you have options! Understand that if you got your opponent that far back, you're already doing a lot of things right! Now just remember that your economy is the best in the game (some TEC players will forget this because they're not in a pocket between two allies and therefore don't give their economy a second thought). You're smart TEC player so you will exploit the fact that you can build fleets and replenish losses much easier than your Advent opponent, whose ass you've been kicking already.

You also know that your LRMs are the best in the game and, melded into a fleet, are perfect for sniping high-value targets like Guardians and titans. What's that?? You're playing a version where TKP is broken?? Then throw in a crap-ton of bombers with those LRMs because this dumbass is throwing a few Destras at you too.

Uh-oh your Sova got killed because you suck at issuing move orders? No worries, TEC player, replace it with an Akkan and/or Dunov. The Akkan will make it easy for your LRMs to poach the Guardians from a safe distance and the Dunov will cut down on their ability usage if they try to close and knock you around the well.  Now the last thing you need are some Hoshikas to boost your survivability although let's face it: the mainstay of this guy's fleet is freaking Guardians so it's not like he creates much damage. just maneuver around this lumbering Eradica until you're ready and you'll be fine.

And remember, like our friend sareth (whose advice we actually listen to) always says: "TEC attrition strategy beats out the advent 'repulse to protect carriers' fleet strategy over time." So don't panic, don't rush, you can kill Guardians faster than your crippled opponent can build them. Just be surgical and keep your reinforcements queued up and you'll clench the win.

Ok Mayall, you can come back now. Ignore the above section and keep fending off attacks from these know-nothings who think they can help you. There's no way you could have won under this broken game. Your loss is not only justifiable, but a total embarrassment to the game's developers.

Let us ignore Mayall's replay and use (or lack) of strategy and examine the problem being discussed...let us further ignore the fact that one Beta version (a fleeting moment in the history of Sins) renders TK push useless...

Now, let us consider a mid or late game situation of Advent vs. TEC, where the Advent fleet consists of:

• 2 Halcyons with TK push (quite reasonable to assume an Advent player will have these)
• 1 Progenitor with shield regeneration
• An Advent Titan
• A dozen or so Iconus Guardians
• Various other frigates (the exact selection doesn't really matter, though it is highly probable there is a good contingent of defense vessels)

What can the TEC do?  Here are some things to consider from the TEC arsenal:

• LRMs - have great range (9800) that can shoot repulsing guardians even without targeting uplink
• Bombers - highly valuable units to have mid or late game regardless of what you are facing...that being said, multiple instances of TK push can marginalize these ships if they are not used carefully...
• Designate Target - very useful ability for taking out high priority targets...unfortunately, cielos have little other use and designate target is higher in the tech tree than repulsion...additionally, requirement to face target can make it difficult to deal with multiple guardians spamming repulsion from different locations...
• Ion bolt and magnetize - while neither of these abilities can outrange repulsing guardians, if you are able to use the ability before the guardian completely pushes you, then these may be useful...their utility in this situation requires intense micro, excellent timing, and some luck...

Regardless of what TEC chooses to bring to the fight, it is going to be an uphill battle...at this point, outnumbering the enemy and outproducing them is going to be key...

Any late game fleet should have bombers, but TK push + defense vessels is going to make it difficult to use these...even if you manage to wipe out all or most of the guardians with bombers, you'll likely have lost most of your SC and significantly drained the AM of your light carriers....this leaves in you in poor shape for attacking the enemy's caps and Titans...

LRMs are going to be absolutely essential....these things can easily outrange the enemy's repulsing guardians...the biggest problem with these ships is not their ability to attack guardians, but their ability to handle the rest of the enemy fleet (or deal with the enemy's reinforcements that presumably will be good against LRFs)...

In my experience, spamming LRFs to simply kill most of the guardians and maybe drive off the Halcyons is the best bet...the most essential part is not so much what you do while killing the guardians, but what you do after....your LRM fleet will be very vulnerable to pretty much anything else, and quickly bringing other ships is essential...

In short, the TEC counter to guardian spam is the TEC economy: the ability to replenish losses faster and quickly build large amounts of counter units (in this case, the clear winner is LRMs)...I personally would go with a fleet heavy on LRMs, gardas, and bombers while neglecting kodiaks and corvettes until the guardians are out of the picture...

I will not argue about whether repulse is OP or not...I will simply note that: 1) repulse has a long history of being condemned as OP 2) it has been overlooked for so long due to the weakness of Advent's early game 3) the difficulty TEC specificially has with this situation (even if it can be overcome) is undeniable...

I would also like to make this point...there are SB and cap abilities (mass disorientation, missile barrage, shield regeneration, etc) that are difficult if not downright impossible to "spam" yet are easily countered by one instance of an ability interrupt...meanwhile, repulse can be easily spammed and cannot effectively be countered by ability interrupts...

This leads me to wonder why an ability like missile barrage is so easy to counter with an ability interrupt, but a "meager" support ship ability like repulse is not...

You want a specific and thorough  response? here.

 @Seleuceia: Thank you, at least you are not an idiot.  But you did not really factor in the titan, the economy can beat a ADVENT loyalist for certain as their titan does not fleet wipe LRFs easily. The Eradica however, chastic burst does 500 damage(Correct?) at level 1 on a 20 second cooldown time. LRFs will not work against a advent rebel fleet.

You are also right about the economy being the key to their victory over advent loyalist(Again no matter how many LRFs you spam you will just feed the rebel titan). As in a positiong that you are getting fed in there generally is not time to actually eco up as you need to constantly be fleet building. But once you defeat the enemy fleet you can eco up.