Warrantless Police GPS searches ruled illegal

This looked like totally the kind of thread DrJBHL would post, so I thought I would post this one.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/justice/scotus-gps-tracking/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Although the guy in this court case was guilty, the precedent the Supreme Court would have set in convicting him would have been very disturbing.  In the end, the Supreme court ruled unanimously that the police sticking a GPS on your car without your knowledge or a warrant is illegal (although the justices differ on exactly the extent that wireless tapping is illegal).   You can imagine the state we would be in if the government had been allowed to stick a GPS on your car, at any time, for any reason. 

Unfortunately, with all the talk of obsoleting toll roads and simply taxing us based on the number of miles we drive, the police may get what they wished for anyway:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090217/1353483804.shtml

The argument is that it's fairer to tax people who drive more than those who drive less.  Same for auto insurance rates.  While true, at what cost?  The government would have knowledge of your every move in your car.   However, I think this move to tax us per-mile suffered a serious setback with the Supreme Court case today.

 

232,626 views 86 replies
Reply #1 Top

It's moronic either way.

 

Nail his ass with the garnered information, then throw the cop in jail for abuse of power.

 

The toll road idiocy is pointless.  Just another attempt by government to double tax something else, a fuel surcharge is already in there.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 1
It's moronic either way.

 

Nail his ass with the garnered information, then throw the cop in jail for abuse of power.

 

The toll road idiocy is pointless.  Just another attempt by government to double tax something else, a fuel surcharge is already in there.

 

I disagree.  Fruit of the poisonous tree.  We have to be protected from the police using illegal tactics to arrest people.  If they gain evidence of a crime illegally, that evidence should always be thrown out and the police reprimanded.  This is a nation of laws, for the people and by the people. We have to watch the watchmen.  

Reply #3 Top


Unfortunately, with all the talk of obsoleting toll roads and simply taxing us based on the number of miles we drive, the police may get what they wished for anyway:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090217/1353483804.shtml

The argument is that it's fairer to tax people who drive more than those who drive less.  Same for auto insurance rates.  While true, at what cost?  The government would have knowledge of your every move in your car.   However, I think this move to tax us per-mile suffered a serious setback with the Supreme Court case today.

 

Not at all. It could become a requirement to license your vehicle, much the same way most states force you purchase Insurance to legally drive.

This only deals with tracking of people without their permission. If you were required to put a tracking device on your car in order to get it licensed this ruling would hold no bearing.

Or going one further.. requiring YOU to pay a tracking service to track your car for them in order to legally license you car.

 

Gets pulled over, Officer walks up:

"Sir I need to see your license, Registration, proof of insurance and proof of tracking"

Reply #4 Top

The argument is that it's fairer to tax people who drive more than those who drive less. Same for auto insurance rates. While true, at what cost? The government would have knowledge of your every move in your car.

The sad thing is I'd almost welcome this if it was used exclusively for additional investment in infrastructure. The thing that used to fund it, the gasoline tax, hasn't risen in decades and his being reduced to nothing by inflation and better gas mileage. It really needs to rise to what it was in the nineties in real terms, with an automatic adjustment for inflation and perhaps even gas mileage, but of course that is just to politically toxic to ever be a possibility. Hence silly alternatives like this being proposed, which are both more expensive to implement and are far easier for the government to abuse. The dark side of democracy I suppose. :S

Reply #5 Top

This looked like totally the kind of thread DrJBHL would post, so I thought I would post this one.

I knew you would, tetleytea. We put a GPS on your keyboard. We're watching you.

Reply #6 Top

I disagree.  Fruit of the poisonous tree.  We have to be protected from the police using illegal tactics to arrest people.  If they gain evidence of a crime illegally, that evidence should always be thrown out and the police reprimanded.  This is a nation of laws, for the people and by the people. We have to watch the watchmen.

 

People have been telling you this crap for a long time, but that doesn't make it anything other than crap.

 

If I'm a cop, and I beat the living shit out of you to get a confession, the confession is no good.  You were under duress.  If I ask you if you did it, and you just say yes, whether I gave you a Miranda warning or not should mean diddly.  In either case, it is ME that fucked up, not society.  I should be punished for my transgression.  If the evidence isn't in question, fuck the poisonous tree.

 

Lawyers, in an unending effort to fuck people over at their own profit, have conned the entire world into a morass of legalese and utter stupidity just so you absolutely have to have one just to scratch your own ass.  They make shit up out of thin air, a judge buys their line of bullshit, and poof, you have another rule of evidence that never existed before then.  Fruit of the poisonous tree is just one such piece of horse shit to come out of the legal system in what was then a desperate attempt to get a client off over something more akin to a clerical error than a miscarriage of justice.

 

The thing that used to fund it, the gasoline tax, hasn't risen in decades and his being reduced to nothing by inflation and better gas mileage

 

It would help if they actually spent it on roads, instead of public transportation.

Reply #7 Top

Ping ... ping ... is that somebody's PC I hear. Look out ... the PC cops are in the house.

Reply #8 Top

It's too darned intrusive.  They can sugar-coat it any way they want.  From a purely practical standpoint, he government has enough trouble processing the intelligence they're already getting, I see no benefit to allowing them to track everybody everywhere.

If I wanted to live someplace with the government living in my rectum, I'd move there.

Reply #9 Top

It's legal for the cops to have an officer watch you 24/7 but not legal to have technology do it?  Seems like too thin a line for me to have the Supremes involved.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting DaveRI, reply 8
If I wanted to live someplace with the government living in my rectum, I'd move there.

Doesn't matter where you live in this day and age, Government IS in your rectum, given ALL the laws they create to rule, rather than govern.

As for the GPS in there, I just hope a dose of strong laxatives 'll shift it.... cos a surgical removal is gonna cost some. :-"

And with those satellites that can see a bottle cap on your kitchen table from 10,000 miles in space, I make sure all my curtains are drawn tightly, so's government can't see whether my fave soda is Coke or Pepsi.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Zubaz, reply 9
It's legal for the cops to have an officer watch you 24/7 but not legal to have technology do it?  Seems like too thin a line for me to have the Supremes involved.

 Placing a tracking device on your property is not the same as following you around. One actually involves Electronic surveillance. Which is a whole different ball game.


Comparing the 2 is like comparing tapping your phone with someone hearing you talking on your cell phone in public. Just because you use your cellphone in public and other people can hear the conversation doesn't mean they can tap it.

Same goes here. Just because they can follow you around and other people can see where you are doesn't mean they can "tap" your car. Of course its all moot with a warrant anyway. Which is all they will need to do now and it will continue.

What I don't get is why they didn't get a warrant for this particular case. Just because the might get away with something doesn't mean its not best to cover their arse, had they simply gotten a warrant rather than trying to circumvent the spirit if not the letter of law this wouldn't have gotten to the supreme court.

 

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Zubaz, reply 9
It's legal for the cops to have an officer watch you 24/7 but not legal to have technology do it?  Seems like too thin a line for me to have the Supremes involved.

Has to do with wire tap law... essentially, that is what the GPS is, according to SCOUSA, as it is an electronic device revealing info about you. Having a police officer watching you while you are in the public domain, is not. Seems a rather large difference to me, at least. There are rules governing that as well. Don't be hasty in losing what little privacy you do have.... and make damned good and sure the Fourth Amendment isn't lost in the shuffle.

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Zubaz, reply 9
It's legal for the cops to have an officer watch you 24/7 but not legal to have technology do it?  Seems like too thin a line for me to have the Supremes involved.

reply with another quote just above yours

Quoting DaveRI, reply 8
I see no benefit to allowing them to track everybody everywhere.

But I guess Americans don't seem to mind for every person there is another 1 in jail without charge or a lawyer and another 1 in riot gear and another one outside your house pointing a camera in your window. Seems the only way to get a job now is to join the police state in squashing everything that made America good.

 

Quoting starkers, reply 10
I make sure all my curtains are drawn tightly, so's government can't see whether my fave soda is Coke or Pepsi.

I know it's Coke  :grin:

Reply #14 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 6
It would help if they actually spent it on roads, instead of public transportation.

They're both pathetically low, and in many metro areas better public transportation is seriously needed in places where there is no longer room to expand roads. The lack of both will start to be a drain on the economy eventually, even without more bridges collapsing on themselves.

Quoting myfist0, reply 13
But I guess Americans don't seem to mind for every person there is another 1 in jail without charge or a lawyer and another 1 in riot gear and another one outside your house pointing a camera in your window. Seems the only way to get a job now is to join the police state in squashing everything that made America good.

The recession is starting to change this, as states no longer have the money to keep all of their inmates. California I think it was has already started releasing minor criminals early, and some hard hit cities and counties are no longer sending people to jail for certain crimes (just fines and goes on their record). Whether it will lead to a wider realization of the dark side of being "hard on crime" remains to be seen.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting myfist0, reply 13
I know it's Coke

Of course it's Coke....Pepsi is for girlie-boys....;)

Reply #16 Top

One thing that makes me not feel so bad about the guy getting off on illegally-introduced evidence is, our more libertarian types in the USA don't even think drugs should be illegal in the first place.   Granted, I'm not one of those people (this is probably the one area where I diverge from the libertarian camp), and drug legalization tends to apply more toward marijuana--not cocaine.   This case was cocaine.  But still...a criminal going free on charges that we are somewhat ambivalent on being illegal in the first place, that doesn't make me sick to my stomach.   Definitely not so much as the government implanting chip implants in our colons so that they know when we'll have our next bowel movements before we do.

 

Reply #17 Top

Quoting tetleytea, reply 16
our more libertarian types in the USA don't even think drugs should be illegal in the first place.

I keep hearing this in the lame stream media. I believes it should be up to the individual states to decide so if 1 state wants to legalize marijuana for medical purposes or small amounts of personal use you don't have Feds breaking down the door. Giving the power for a state to decide and ridding the country of DEA (who likes to arm Mexican drug lords) is very far from legalizing all drugs.

People in jail for marijuana is just as archaic as burning someone at the steak for speaking against the pope. Alcohol is much more destructive and making that illegal just turned most of the population into criminals.

Edit

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/miron/files/masters_blog.pdf
nice bit about liberal vs libertarian legalization

Reply #18 Top

They're both pathetically low, and in many metro areas better public transportation is seriously needed in places where there is no longer room to expand roads. The lack of both will start to be a drain on the economy eventually, even without more bridges collapsing on themselves.

 

Spending tax dollars on what should and is a private venture in many cases is just an excuse to practice socialism.  Subsidized transportation is another means for wealth redistribution, not something the federal government has any authority to do.  It typically ends up costing more and being less useful than private sector competition as well.

 

Now, if the asshole of a state you're cursed to live in wants to get buses that run off cow shit and solar powered L trains, more power to them.  Nothing in the Constitution says they can't be retarded if they want to be, but it's got no business being paid for by the federal gasoline tax.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 18
Now, if the asshole of a state you're cursed to live in wants to get buses that run off cow shit and solar powered L trains, more power to them. Nothing in the Constitution says they can't be retarded if they want to be, but it's got no business being paid for by the federal gasoline tax.

Ideally every penny from 'gasoline tax' SHOULD go towards reducing the use of 'gasoline' and thus 'our' dependence there-on.

In an ideal world oil SHOULD BE taxed sufficiently to totally subsidise FREE Public Transport.

OK...so it's the Architect in me conscious of the excesses of modern society and its [lack of] sustainability.

Reply #20 Top

I like Jafo's idea  :omg:

I hear people constantly complain about gas price and find it rather funny that they do it with a 500ml bottle of water they payed 2 bucks for.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 18
Spending tax dollars on what should and is a private venture in many cases is just an excuse to practice socialism. Subsidized transportation is another means for wealth redistribution, not something the federal government has any authority to do. It typically ends up costing more and being less useful than private sector competition as well.

Now, if the asshole of a state you're cursed to live in wants to get buses that run off cow shit and solar powered L trains, more power to them. Nothing in the Constitution says they can't be retarded if they want to be, but it's got no business being paid for by the federal gasoline tax.

Last I checked governments have the ability to tax and regulate commerce for the common good, so I don't know why you're implying that its unconstitutional. That's just like saying governments building highways, rail lines, ports, and airports are wealth distribution in the other direction, as the rich who own the transportation industries make more money off of them. It shouldn't matter. Time is money, and efficient transportation saves a lot of it; whether its public transport or your own vehicle on a street the government built I don't care.

Quoting Jafo, reply 19
Ideally every penny from 'gasoline tax' SHOULD go towards reducing the use of 'gasoline' and thus 'our' dependence there-on.

In an ideal world oil SHOULD BE taxed sufficiently to totally subsidise FREE Public Transport.

OK...so it's the Architect in me conscious of the excesses of modern society and its [lack of] sustainability.

I'm pretty sure he'll say its no business of the government to inhibit what its citizens do, no matter how self destructive their habits are.

Reply #22 Top

Last I checked governments have the ability to tax and regulate commerce for the common good, so I don't know why you're implying that its unconstitutional. That's just like saying governments building highways, rail lines, ports, and airports are wealth distribution in the other direction, as the rich who own the transportation industries make more money off of them. It shouldn't matter. Time is money, and efficient transportation saves a lot of it; whether its public transport or your own vehicle on a street the government built I don't care.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

 

Common Good isn't in there.  the general Welfare of the United States is referring to the entity, not the population.  Common applies to defense only.  Wealth redistribution isn't in there, and was explicitly warned against by the people that wrote this, so don't bother regurgitating the half baked bullshit argument liberals always throw up at the first sign of someone being capable of basic reading comprehension.

 

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

 

Here we have the idiocy used to justify the interstate highway system.  Regulate does not mean what they claim it does, banning shit left and right as they micromanage the economy into the ground.  Historical documents must be defined by the period, not current shenanigans to make things say something other than what they did.  Regulate means to make regular.  Congress has the power to make certain that interstate commerce remains open and fair.  They're supposed to stomp on states that impose tariffs, and other forms of idiocy to gain a competitive edge over their neighbors, such as requiring in state drivers.  It's a crap argument, this doesn't even justify the interstate highway system.  To the effect of this argument though, it's bloody wonderful.  Your local putz city bus system has fuck all to do with interstate commerce, thus it's not covered in any way and cannot be promoted or restricted in any form by the federal government

 

I said the interstate highways aren't really justified by the commerce clause, but they are justified.  Interstate highways are necessary for the transport of mail.  Airports are necessary for the transport of mail.  At the time the rail system was being built, rail was used for mail.  Problem solved.  Our government isn't bright enough to figure that out though, so they came up with a convoluted explanation for the above instead of using this:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

 

That's not to say no one can legally run public transportation in the USA.  There is no explicit restriction on expenditures for public transportation written into our set of rights.  As such, municipalities and state governments are all quite free to play with their own localities barring restrictions in their state constitutions, or local ordinances.  It just isn't constitutional for it to be federally funded.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 22
Historical documents must be defined by the period, not current shenanigans to make things say something other than what they did.

'Historical documents' are anachronisms in current society.

When that old crap was written there was no issues of global economic crises...or disproportionate 'power' or hold on global economies by those ends of the world rich in energy resources.

There was possibly even still '500 nations' to consider....yet strangely....where are they now? - Micro-managed into 'reservations'.

Hanging on with desperate panic to the archaic ramblings that is a 'constitution' in the face of its failings and irrelevance is pretty pointless.

Unless the world's biggest consumer of unsustainable fossil fuel starts paying equitably for it as the rest of the world does they will never comprehend the poo they have themselves in.

The REAL cost of public transport infrastructure is not some 'unjustified' interpretation of a bill of rights it is the cost [saving] to society of road trauma and its subsequent treatment / handling. 

Reduction of road-use SHOULD see a reduction of payment for that use.

However it's implemented the result will always be a plus.

Reply #24 Top

For someone who spends so much time arguing for copyright laws to be followed, your dismissal of the Constitution is comedic.  It has an amendment process for a reason.  I'll ignore your unrealized communist sympathies, as ignorance is rampant and incurable these days.  The shit will hit the fan and it will have nothing to do with petroleum.  Peak oil is an old joke the world doesn't get no matter how many times it comes around.

 

The REAL cost of public transport infrastructure is not some 'unjustified' interpretation of a bill of rights it is the cost [saving] to society of road trauma and its subsequent treatment / handling.

 

Pot holes are created not by driving, but by weather.  Outlaw cars entirely and have everyone on buses, you'll still replace them just as often.

 

So... No, it isn't.

Reply #25 Top

Potholes are most definitely caused by weather, although cars might possibly exacerbate or speed up the breakdown process.  I was up in Alaska where no one ever drove the roads, but the weather was crazy.   The potholes were nuts.  No wonder they have to fly everywhere in Alaska.