This is how I feel.  They are both awesome with the added benefit that the Egg destroys the Progen, so Egg is #1 in my book.

So I get that the problem is that the illuminators forward firepower being to low to raise mitigation caused them to win in a 1v1 battle, which also works for their sidebeams during which a target struck by two or three sidebeams does not have thier mitigation raised. So basically its the because the splitting of the damage reduces dps, the illuminators ending up doing substantially more damage then other lrms. Fix? Increase the split towards the front, maybe %80 front beam, %10 on each side. Would that solve the problem?

The mitigation issue is not really a problem.  It will only really happen with extremely small fights.  The focus fire of any sizeable fleet is going to max the mitigation quickly.  This only came about because JJ chose to test 1v1 ship.

[_]-Greyfox

True, this is particularly apparent in a 1v1, but then again Illuminators that are being driven around and through fleets are spreading their damage on multiple targets and hitting ships in stages where there are a lot of low mitigation strikes.   This is opposed to Assailants and LRM which are much more focused and almost always at high mitigation.

The low mitigation of the side beam hits becomes apparent when a group of Illums swims back and forth through a superior force of LRM's and destroys them mercilessly.

Perhaps mitigation could be a fixed value all the time since you can't order ships to spread fire anyway. Even AI targeting uses focus fire so FF is pretty much always the case.

I don't think mitigation really needs to be fixed.  It has been working for a year.  If mitigation were constantly high, very small numbers of ships would be near useless.

I wasn't talking about fixing mitigation, I was talking more about adjusting the Illums damage output so mitigation affects it the way it does other lrms.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, cause I couldn't bother to read everything;

There is one more OP thing about Illums in Soase, which is instant weapon impact. It is very noticeable when compared to assailants, whose phase missiles are loltardedly slow. It often happens that your large group of assailants fires a full extra salvo of missiles ( = a lot of damage ) onto a ship that is going to get annihilated by the previous salvo, which is just about to hit it ( = a lot of damage wasted ). That doesn't happen to Illums. With Soase's slow calculation of damage and laggish autotargetting, it really reduces Assailants effectiveness by ~20% when not babysitted, while illums suffer very marginally.

In very massive battles (say 80 assailants with support against an equally large fleet) an unattended horde of assailants will kill the enemy fleet half as slow as they would if picking the targets was done manually. This is simply because a player knows that an enemy ship left with 150 hit points needs only a dozen missiles to die, so he would give a new target to the assailants and let the missiles already in flight to finish the job. Illums don't have that problem at all.

Have to agree w/ N3rull here... the other two LRF's are m-a-s-s-i-v-e-l-y--s-l-o-w where as, theIlluminatorVesselFiresatleast2to3timesbythetimeonesalvoofmissileshits.

Know what I mean?

Koda0 (^)

I don't think that it is OP for instant hits by the illum's beam weapons.  it's just the nature of the nature of the weapon.

N3rull is right on the mark. But I would also add in that TEC's Cluster Bombs and Vasary's Charged missiles has listtle to no effect on battle while Advent's illusionary ships have a huge impact.

I'm gonan be running testign ont hat this Satuday/Sunday with my buddy and I will post the findings in a new thread. So I think if we fixed the defunctional abialties the balance could be achived. So a nerf is not what I would recomend right at this moment.

Over the weekend, I tried my own test with 1v1 Illuminator vs Assailant (along with a few other matchups I was curious about).  Unfortunately, I don't have any replays (never tried to make one).  The map was Quickstrike and the fights were done in the sun's gravity well (neither ship uses AM anyway).  I turned off auto-attack until both ships entered the grav well and were out of range of the other ship.  I then turned on auto-attack on both ships at the same time.

Illuminator vs Assailant (no upgrades):  Both kill eachother.  I was surprised that the assailant was able to get that last volley off before it died and it was just enough to kill off the Illuminator.

Illuminator vs Assailant (Full upgrades...shield, hull, armor, weapons, and special abilities):  Assailant wins with 90HPs left.  Had the Assailant gone for the Illuminator's copy, it certaintly would have lost, but since it didn,t switch targets, that eliminated the Illuminator's abilities' usefulness.  Believe me, I was surprised that the Assailant won this round especially since it is a teir 1 ship.

Illuminator vs Skirmisher (Full Upgrades as well): I did this just for fun and to guage how effective Reintegration was during battle.  Skirmisher wins with 300HPs left and immediately Reintegrates to get back full health.  This fight took more than 5 minutes to conclude.  The Illuminator could not gain any ground once the Skirmisher would cast Reintegration.  The Skirmisher would get down to about 300HPs and then Reintegrate, restoring 12HP/s while under fire.  It would get to around 550HPs at the time it stopped reintegrating.  The Illuminator would just be able to wear it down to 300HPs again before the Skirmisher could again cast Reintegration.  Although the Illuminator's shields and health would regenerate naturally during the time the Skirmisher was Reintegrating, the damage done by the Skirmisher between Reintegrations was greater and it eventually wore down the Illuminator. 

-Gilligan

Reintergration has always been a powerfull abilaty. It's just under apreciated.

noone is really worried about 1v1s.

Get into a battle against a dozen or more and you will see the illums overpowerness. Illums can just sail around blasting everthing relentlessly (sidebeams, instant hit, fire while moving...)

Honestly ive never seen a human player (other than noobs) not rush and spam illums. It is really boring i think to play as advent and to play against advent is dull too, and frustating as you know exactly whats coming and yet its difficult to beat unless you outproduce him/her.

Fighters and scouts are too easily countered themselves to effectivly counter illums and illums tear through scouts anyhow. Illums also take out carriers rather quick and the new carriers nerf (speed -50) means those carriers cant just run around anymore without getting blasted.

Something needs done in my opinion...and heres some general ideas:

Sidebeams requiring AM

take away illum ability to fire while moving

Make other LRFs able to fire while moving

DE-NERF CARRIERS

nerf illum shields/armor/hull/dps/rate-of-fire

They already can, an enemy just has to be within the firing arc, of which I'm afraid the illum has the largest due to its side mounted beams.

you should play against raging amish then. he rushes scouts because they counter illums. scouts counter illums, but vasari get the short straw because their scouts dont work for combat well.

Well I'll say this all of my loses in 1.03 entrenchment are at the hands of advent players. And they all did the same thing build 10 flak and spam lots of lums. Can't stop it. Atleast it is extremly hard to stop it almost imposible. And yeah it is boaring. You know exactly what their going to do but even with yoru best eforts their is little more you can do then pray that the map is highly favored on your side.

What I can see is that TEC and Vasari are verywell balanced while advent is out of there in the ball park. Truth me told lums are more like HCs then LRFs. Maybe thats why advent players never build anything else.

1.01 entrnehcment even if lums were this powerfull it didnt matter since their counter could deal with them. But this isnt the case anymore. Also I'll add that if a Vasari or TEC player tries to LRF and Flak spam to win he will get maulled, at least by me, but and advent player will hardly get phased and can continue to spam the lums and have minimal flak as protection and he'll steam on to a win.

Yeah to counetr lums you can amass 30 plus scouts to fend of 10 lums but add in flak and your in trouble. Not to mentiont he lums massaker the scouts like 3 times faster then the LRMs and assailants. For a unit that has nearly 360 fire range it'S just to heavyly defended. Basicly it has the best of both worlds.

Stats you'd like to see changed:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646

The second test is not valid, since you got chanse to pass the shields, if you do the same test 10 times, there is scenario where assilant will beat illu.

since its chanse based, you need to repeat the second test many times and take down the median...

statisticks noob

Anyhow, unnerfing carriers will bring illus back to the line, since i used to own illu fleets hands down with TEC carrier/hoshi mix early games.

Now its impossible due to hard nerfs on carriers build time, even small contigency of flak will fuck up much larger carrier group.

Same here buddy same here.

carriers build time already boosted.....changing them back to vanilla state will fuck up the game again - packs of carriers in every game,no thx.its about the whole idea of LRF being both counter to the basic unit,having good dps/long range and a decent hit chance against structures and capital ships - perfect choice for early game fleet core....retarded in my opinion.its like spamming  artillery and using it as cannonfodder and...its being cost effective?O_o

please,rethink the LF/LRF characteristics.

PLEASE.

Lol carrier spams were hardly a problem. 30 or so ligth frigates would dispose of them quite rapidly. You'd take loses but no were near as much as he would. Replacing your LFs wasnt a problem. Also someone int hat situation couldn'T fight at 2 locations at once they woudl also nerf their econ getting so many carriers. Basicly spamming carriers is what noob who didnt know how to the game did. I remember in oe game masakering and keeping at bay 50 carriers with only 30 LFs. The dude rage quitted. If you found carrier spams anoying it'S because you your self do not yet fully understand the game mecanics. Your gettign there but your not quite there.

PS: You posted replies I would call crap in 4 treads concider thsi one the only reply you get for all 4. I could go on pointing more flaws in your logic but I'll let it go.

i have to agree with Ead. i never had any problems with carrier spammers at all they were easily countered. The reason that carriers were used So much in MP is because people still went for lrfs early game, so carriers became natural. almost all of the people complaing about carriers were advent players complaining because illums were no longer an instant win ship. So you would have poeple have fleets of 40 illums and then watch them get destroyed by 12 or so carriers and they would complain they were OP. I saw it game after game.

So true kinda funny IC is always doing whats best for advent and not whats best for the game.

well look at the SB poll on the front page. i think that IC is trying to give advent some love. problem is they were already pretty powerful from the beginning of entrenchment...just almost no one knows how to use them right... a lot of ppl think they are about illum & carrier spam...but their abilities are where they really shine (btw, nerf repulse all you want, it still won't save you from getting pushed into a mine field upon jumping in to a system.) advent were always focused around superior technology, abilities, & synergy...but a lot of ppl just spam with them.

i think dropping the carrier build penalty to 10-15% from 25% would help bring carrier back as a counter without discouraging their use. leave the speed nerf there-no cruiser should be faster than a frigate.

and again spamming illums only to have them wiped out by scouts hurts a lot more than it does for the other 2 races.