Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

from Sins Forums

For Sins 1.18 and Entrenchment 1.04

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

* Topics shoud be considered independent of eachother, vote for each topic as if the Devs were to choose only 1. Yay for fixes that you think would work, nay for fixes that you think won't*

** Now there's an easier way to cast your vote, download the easy entry form, fill it out and then copy and paste your results!**

>> Download The Easy Entry Form <<

REFERENCES
Several members of the community have taken it upon themselves to run tests to prove imbalances and recommend possible fixes. I would Encourage everyone commenting here to read these and become more informed.
Raging Amish's Lums vs Enforcers                           JJs HC Tests                      JJs Illum Tests

Deceivers Subjugator thread                        Deceivers Cap Carrier thread         

RAGING AMISH's Balance MOD

Game Bugs

These need to be addressed before anything else. The following is a compiled list of all known game bugs. Thanks to Pawelo for helping me compile and test these. If you can think of any others that aren't on here leave a comment to let me know.

-Embargo Level 2 and 3 do not stop cargo ships.

-Phasic Trap Research level 2 does not do anything.

-Magnetize does not interrupt channeled abilities

-Disruptive Strikes does not work on pulse beams

-Allegiance through wormholes is flawed.

-Wrong Sound effects on: Anima Tempest, repair cloud, nanite armor, EMP blast

-Infocard errors: Dunov shield restore does not increase mitigation, labs do not speed up build time

-Akkan Colonize ability does not always spawn extractors at lvl2 and lvl3.

-Subverters Disrupt Shields can not target structures with shields

-Some musics and Orange Skybox are not used.

 

SOLANUS ADJUDICATORS

The adjudicator, while it can target multiple structures, just doesnt have the punch its TEC cousin the Ogrovs has and has difficulty handling tight clusters of structures supported by repair bays. Also, without a well functioning healing unit, the poor adjudicator simply cant live long enough in the throws of battle to make a huge difference. We've discussed the changes, now its time to get official votes on them.

     Buff the Adjudicator-
                         Change armor type?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                           N3rull
                                               eoncommander

                              Nay-           Dargoon999         Warlord Mike

                         Reduce supply cost?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                            Dargoon999
                                               Warlord Mike        Darvin3                         SivCorp
                                               eoncommander

                              Nay-           

                         Reduce number of firing banks to increase damage per target?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  N3rull                            Dargoon999

                         Increase damage?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  Dargoon999

                         Increase shields?:

                             Yay-            JuleTron                Kitkun                           eoncommander

                             Nay-            Dargoon999           Warlord Mike

      No Fix Needed-                    Ryat                      Extremor

MINES

These little critters were introduced in Entrenchment and have been seldom used. They are purely defensive, extremely expensive, and a huge gamble to put your money in. There's been much discussion on possible fixes, but now its time for an official vote, so here you go.

      Buff Mines
                        Increase damage?

                            Yay-              Juletron                Whiskey144                 SivCorp
                                                Extremor

                            Nay-              EadTaes               Raging Amish               Ovi_187
                                                Kitkun                  eoncommander

                        Increase damage radius?

                            Yay-             Top Vasari             Whiskey144                  EadTaes
                                               Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                        SivCorp
                                               Extremor                eoncommander

                            Nay-             Juletron                 N3rull                           Raging Amish
                                               Kitkun

                        Increase activation radius?

                            Yay-             Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                JuleTron                       N3rull
                                               Raging Amish         Ovi_187                       Kitkun
                                               Extremor

                        Increase mines per deployment?

                            Yay-             eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                N3rull                         Raging Amish
                                               Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                               Extremor

                        Increase deployment spread?

                            Yay-           Warlord Mike            Extremor                    eoncommander

                            Nay-           Juletron                   EadTaes                     N3rull
                                             Raging Amish           Ovi_187                     Kitkun

                        Decrease cost?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Mindseye(25%)           EadTaes(25%)
                                             Dargoon999             Whiskey144                N3rull(20%)
                                             Warlord Mike            Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                             Extremor

                            Nay-           Raging Amish            eoncommander

                        Reduce build time for Proximity Mines(TEC)?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Whiskey144                EadTaes
                                             Raging Amish           Warlord Mike               Ovi_187
                                             Kitkun                      Extremor

                            Nay-

                        Increase duration of Gravity Mines(Vasari)?
 
                            Yay-           Juletron                   N3rull                  Mindseye
                                             Ovi_187                   Kitkun                 Extremor

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

                        Fix homming mines AI to return to original deployment location(Advent)?
 
                            Yay-           JuleTron                  EadTaes              N3rull
                                             Mindseye                 Warlord Mike       Ovi_187
                                             SivCorp                    Kitkun                Extremor
                                             eoncommander

                            Nay-           Raging Amish

                        Make Gravity Mines an upgrade to existing mines?

                            Yay-           N3rull                      Juletron               Dargoon999
                                             Ue-Carbon               Deceiver_0           Mindseye
                                             Kitkun                     Extremor
                                          

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

      No fix needed-

SIEGE FRIGATES

Costing more than most Heavy Cruisers, one would expect siege frigates to be able to handle a simple task like bombing a planet to oblivion, but with their super thin and weak hulls they certainly aren't worth the cost, and with Entrenchments bombardment protection on starbases, siege frigates find themselves in the obsolete unit pile. Personally I think they should be tough as nails since all they do is bomb planets and cost loads of resources and precious supply. With a decent buff these units could be the terror they once were and possibly bring back some of the planetary defense tech that fell from use after their nerf. (planetary shielding anyone?)

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?:
 
                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(Hp)     Volt_Cruelerz   Darvin3
                                                  Ryat                    EadTaes         Dargoon999(10%)
                                                  N3rull(+nerf)         Kitkun            eoncommander   


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Cykur                Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish      Ascension          Howdidudothat
                                                 Ovi_187              Sobric               Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

                        Change armor type (currently light)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(v. heavy)  Soasertsus(v. heavy)  Volt_Cruelerz(heavy/v.heavy)
                                                 EadTaes (heavy)        Dargoon999(heavy)    N3rull(heavy)
                                                 SivCorp                     Extremor(heavy)         eoncommander


                              Nay-             Darvin3              Cykur                Ryat
                                                 Mindseye            Raging Amish     Ascension
                                                 Howdidudothat     Ovi_187             Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike       Kitkun
 
                        Decrease Resource cost?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus        Darvin3               EadTaes
                                                  Howdidudothat  Sobric                 Extremor              


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz      Cykur                 Ryat 
                                                 Dargoon999        Mindseye           Raging Amish
                                                 Ascension           Ovi_187             Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun

                        Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-            Soasertsus(6)     Darvin3               Cykur
                                                 Ryat(10)           EadTaes(10)        Dargoon999(10)
                                                 Mindseye          Howdidudothat      Raging Amish(12)
                                                 Ascension(12)   Ovi_187                mbaron888(8)
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike         SivCorp
                                                 Kitkun              eoncommander

                             
                              Nay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Extremor  

                        Increase Bombardment damage?:

                              Yay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Dargoon999(20%) Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

             
                              Nay-            Soasertsus         Darvin3               Cykur
                                                Ryat                  EadTaes              Mindseye
                                                Raging Amish     Ascension            Howdidudothat
                                                Ovi_187             Sobric                 SivCorp
                                                Kitkun                eoncommander


                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0        Soasertsus            Volt_Cruelerz
                                                 Darvin3            Cykur                   Ryat
                                                 Dargoon999      N3rull                   Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish    Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike     Kitkun


                              Nay-             EadTaes           Ascension             Howdidudothat

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3          Sobric                     Warlord Mike

                             
                              Nay-             Soasertsus       Volt_Cruelerz          Cykur
                                                 Ryat                EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Mindseye         Raging Amish          Ascension
                                                 Howdidudothat  Ovi_187                 Kitkun

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus       Darvin3(40)            Cykur
                                                 EadTaes(15)     Dargoon999(30)     Ovi_187
                                                 Kitkun


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz    Ryat                     Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish   Ascension              Howdidudothat
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike
                       
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0         Soasertsus              Volt_Cruelerz
                                                 Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish     Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike      Kitkun                    Extremor

                            
                              Nay-             Ryat                  Ascension              Howdidudothat             

                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun                Extremor


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Volt_Cruelerz           Ryat
                                                  Ascension          Howdidudothat         Sobric


      No Fix Needed-

 

SEREVUN OVERSEER

The overseer is a powerful, but seldom used ship due to it's current lack of usability. I'd recommend anyone planning on voting on this topic read a few of the replies on page 5, where Ascension and I debated some changes. I've also thrown in a few ideas to make overseers 'Jump Degradation' ability a little more potent for the 100AM and channeling it costs.

      Buff Serevun Overseers-
                       
                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension            Soasertsus             milo896
                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana               N3rull
                                                  Mindseye            Cykur                     EadTaes
                                                  Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike  
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                eoncommander

                              Nay-             Pbhead                Sobric
                      
                         Increase turn rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension            Soasertsus             milo896
                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana              N3rull
                                                  Mindseye            Pbhead                  Raging Amish 
                                                  Ovi_187              Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                  Extremor             eoncommander

                              Nay-             EadTaes              Sobric                    SivCorp

                         Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?:

                              Yay-              Ascension           Raging Amish          Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike       SivCorp                   Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0          Soasertsus              Darvin3                                              
                                                  milo896              Howdidudothat         lifekatana
                                                  N3rull                 Mindseye                 Pbhead
                                                  EadTaes             Ovi_187                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                         Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?:

                              Yay-              milo896              Howdidudothat         Mindseye
                                                  EadTaes              Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                 eoncommander

                              Nay-              Soasertsus          lifekatana               Pbhead
                                                  Raging Amish
 
                         Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0 (5-10%)  Soasertsus(20%AM)  Darvin3
                                                  milo896              N3rull(speed reduction)  Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Howdidudothat     lifekatana              Mindseye
                                                  Pbhead               EadTaes                 Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187              Sobric                     Extremor

                        Allow 'Jump Degradation' to disable passive regeneration?

                              Yay-              Raging Amish       Deceiver_0              Diplominator
                                                  Juletron                Sobric                    Extremor                 

                              Nay-              Ovi_187               Howdidudothat         Cykur
                                                  Kitkun

         No Fix Needed-


SKAROVAS ENFORCER

The relative weakness of the Enforcer has recently been brought to the forums attention (thanks JohnJames). With their higher resource cost, higher supply cost and more expensive upgrades, enforcers are unfortunately left in the dust by their counterparts. Many speculate that their extra ability (reintegration) is the cause for such a skewed balance, while others agree that reintegration lacks the power enforcers deserve. The following are some fixes that have been proposed. Personally, I think the Vasari should get a little more for what they pay for.

           Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

                         Decrease Resource Cost?:

                              Yay-              Ascension              EadTaes                  Sobric          

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Soasertsus               Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  lifekatana              Howdidudothat          Darvin3
                                                  Mindseye               Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                  Warlord Mike          Kitkun                      Extremor  
                                                  eoncommander      
               
                         Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-              Soasertsus             Sobric                       Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Volt_Cruelerz             lifekatana
                                                  Howdidudothat        Darvin3                     Mindseye
                                                  EadTaes                 Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                  Kitkun                    eoncommander

                         Increase hp/shields/armor?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0               Darvin3                   EadTaes(armor+1)
                                                  Raging Amish           SivCorp                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander
                           
                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           Soasertsus               lifekatana
                                                  Howdidudothat         Mindseye                 Ovi_187
                                                  Sobric                     Extremor

                         Increase Damage?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Soasertsus                Ascension
                                                  JuleTron                  Darvin3                    Howdidudothat
                                                  Mindseye                 Cykur                      EadTaes(22)
                                                  Raging Amish(21.6)  Ovi_187                   Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike           SivCorp                    Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           lifekatana                Extremor         

                         Cheaper damage upgrades?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                   Ascension               DesConnor                Raging Amish
                                                   N3rull                     lifekatana                 JuleTron 
                                                   Darvin3                  Howdidudothat           Mindseye
                                                   EadTaes                 Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                                   SivCorp                  Extremor                   eoncommander     

                              Nay-              Soasertsus              Ovi_187                    Kitkun

                         Higher reintegration rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                  Soasertsus              N3rull                        lifekatana
                                                  JuleTron                 Darvin3                      Howdidudothat
                                                  Ovi_187                  Sobric                        Kitkun

                              Nay-             Mindseye                 EadTaes                    Raging Amish 
                                                 Extremor

           No Fix Needed-                 Pbhead

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

The domina has been an a lot of peoples (f spending money on that) list for sometime. I tested and observed the subjugator while I was examining carrier caps and wrote a report on them as well. Here's some fixes that have been proposed for the Domina as well as the Stilakus Subverter (whose destiny is quite intertwined with the domina). I'll be putting the Subverter question under the REPULSE section as it has to do more as a counter to it.

          Buff Domina Subjugators-

                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Mindseye              Darvin3
                                                  Gugabalog             Cykur(heal only)    Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                  SivCorp                  Kitkun                   eoncommander       

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana             Pbhead

                         Increase turn rate?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Darvin3                Gugabalog
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead                Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun                    eoncommander

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana

                         Make abilities AOE?:

                                Yay-            Warlord Mike          SivCorp                eoncommander

                                Nay-            Deceiver_0             EadTaes               Gugabalog    
                                                  Darvin3                  lifekatana             Mindseye
                                                  Pbhead                  Raging Amish        Ovi_187
                                                  Sobric                    Kitkun

                         Remove channeling from abilities?:

                               Yay-             EadTaes                Gugabalog             lifekatana
                                                  Raging Amish         Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun

                               Nay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                 Mindseye
                                                  Pbhead                  Ovi_187                SivCorp
                                                  eoncommander

                         Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?:

                               Yay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                  EadTaes
                                                  Gugabalog             Soasertsus             lifekatana
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead                  Cykur
                                                  Raging Amish         Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike          SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander


                               Nay-             Pbhead

           No Fix Needed-

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

I've noticed people use Carrier Caps generally for 1 ability, and not for the strikecraft and SC bonuses they offer. Weaker than most other classes, they are sparse and somewhat unthreatening on the battle field. Personally I think they should offer more benefit in the strike craft department than they do now. I've written a detailed report on them, and taken some of the proposed changes from it for this thread.

             Buff Carrier Caps-

                        Increase Initial Armor?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0              Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Howdidudothat         Gugabalog           Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                   Kitkun

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon          mbaron888
                                                Pirate-Jack             EadTaes              DesConnor
                                                Swordsalmon          lifekatana            Pbhead
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                Extremor                eoncommander

                        Increase Squadron Capacity?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0 (see thread)  Soasertsus      Ryat
                                                -Ue_Carbon              ReadyMan           Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack          EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye            Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                  lifekatana
                                                -aceca-                   Derek06               Ovi_187
                                                Sobric                     Warlord Mike        SivCorp
                                                Kitkun                     Extremor             eoncommander

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  Raging Amish          

                        Make SC buffs AOE?

                                Yay-          EadTaes               DesConnor               Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog            Derek06                   Raging Amish
                                                Sobric                   SivCorp                    Extremor
 
                                Nay-          Deceiver_0             Soasertsus              Ryat
                                                Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon             Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888            Pirate-Jack               lifekatana
                                                Pbhead                  Ovi_187                  Kitkun
                                                eoncommander


                        Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Darvin3                 Howdidudothat
                                                 Mindseye                 Swordsalmon         Gugabalog
                                                 Derek06                  Raging Amish        Sobric 
                                                SivCorp                    Kitkun               

                                Nay-          Soasertsus               Ryat                     -Ue_Carbon
                                                 mbaron888              Pirate-Jack           EadTaes
                                                DesConnor                lifekatana            Pbhead
                                                Ovi_187                    Extremor             eoncommander

                        Re-work Scramble Bombers?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Darvin3                    -Ue_Carbon          Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack            EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye              Swordsalmon   
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                    lifekatana
                                                Pbhead                    Derek06               Raging Amish
                                                Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                                eoncommander

                                Nay-        

           No Fix Needed-

LIGHT FRIGATES

Most agree that Light Frigates don't scale well. Being limited in their usefulness early game, and becoming almsot complete obsolete late game with Heavy Cruiser research. Many ideas have been thrown around to get light frigates back on the battle field.

            Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?:

                                  Yay-         TheRezonator       Gugabalog               Darvin3
                                                  -Ue_carbon          Howdidudothat         JuleTron
                                                  Pirate-Jack          N3rull                      Ascension
                                                  Cykur                  Dargoon999(20%)   Raging Amish(Vasari: 12)
                                                  Ovi_187              SivCorp(10%)          

                                  Nay-         Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888              DesConnor
                                                 lifekatana             Pbhead                   EadTaes
                                                 Sobric                   Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                        Increase Damage bonus to heavy armor type?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 -Ue_carbon          JuleTron                  Pirate-Jack
                                                 Howdidudothat     mbaron888              DesConnor(Light)
                                                 Ascension            lifekatana                EadTaes
                                                 Dargoon999         Raging Amish(175%+)   Ovi_187
                                                 Sobric                  SivCorp(25%)           Kitkun
                                                 Extremor             eoncommander

                                  Nay-         Volt_cruelerz        Pbhead    
                   
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0(armor)      TheRezonator     Gugabalog
                                                  Darvin3                      JuleTron            Ascension
                                                  lifekatana                  Dargoon999(10%)  Ovi_187
                                                  Warlord Mike              eoncommander

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz       Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                   mbaron888        DesConnor               Pbhead
                                                   EadTaes            Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                   SivCorp             Kitkun                      Extremor
                  
                         Increase ability range?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0          TheRezonator            Gugabalog
                                                  Volt_cruelerz       -Ue_carbon                JuleTron
                                                  Ascension           Eadtaes                     Dargoon999
                                                  Raging Amish      Ovi_187                    Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                Extremor                   eoncommander
 
                                  Nay-          Howdidudothat    mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana           Pbhead                   
                                                  
                        Increase firing arc?:

                                  Yay-          TheRezonator       Gugabalog              -Ue_carbon
                                                  JuleTron               Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                  DesConnor            N3rull                      Ascension
                                                  Eadtaes                Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike        SivCorp                    Extremor

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888               lifekatana
                                                  Pbhead                Dargoon999              Ovi_187
                                                  Kitkun                  eoncommander

                        Increase turn speed?:

                                  Yay-          Darvin3                 EadTaes                TheRezonator
                                                  Pirate-Jack             ReadyMan            Howdidudothat
                                                  mbaron888            DesConnor            Mindseye
                                                  N3rull                    Ascension              Pbhead
                                                  Eadtaes                 Dargoon999          Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                  SivCorp                  Extremor              eoncommander

                                  Nay-         lifekatana              Kitkun

             Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 Darvin3               Volt_cruelerz             JuleTron
                                                 Pirate-Jack           mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                 N3rull                  Ascension                  lifekatana
                                                 Eadtaes               Dargoon999              Raging Amish
                                                 Ovi_187               Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                                 SivCorp                Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                                  Nay-        Howdidudothat      Pbhead

             Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?:
   
                                  Yay-          Proletari                Darvin3               Azrak_Navarion
                                                 ReadyMan             Howdidudothat     Mindseye
                                                 Ascension              Eadtaes               Dargoon999(10%)

                                  Nay-          Deceiver_0           Volt_cruelerz          Pirate-Jack
                                                  mbaron888          DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                  Pbhead               Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                                  Sobric                 Warlord Mike           Kitkun
                                                  Extremor             eoncommander

                          Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0(125%)  Ovi_187              Howdidudothat
                                                 Sobric                   eoncommander

                                  Nay-         N3rull                    Cykur                 Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun                   Extremor

                          Increase LRF resource cost?:

                                  Yay-         Extremor

                                  Nay-         Deceiver_0            Pirate-Jack          Howdidudothat
                                                 mbaron888            DesConnor         lifekatana
                                                 Pbhead                 Eadtaes              Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish        Ovi_187              Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike         Kitkun                 eoncommander

             No Fix Needed-                Soasertsus              dresda

REPULSE:

Many have said repulse needs a fix. Personally I agree.


            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Raging Amish         crashmatusow
                                                Ascension                 Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Tohron                     Darvin 3                 Top vasari
                                                mbaron888               Proletari                -Ue_carbon
                                                Major  Stress            Mindseye                Azrak_Navarion
                                                lbgsloan                   Gugabalog              Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat          JuleTron                 DesConnor
                                                lifekatana                -aceca-                   Derek06
                                                Cykur                      Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                                Extremor                  eoncommander   
                                              
                                    Nay-    dresda

                        Increase cooldown rate?

                                    Yay-      Raging Amish            Deceiver_0             Howdidudothat
                                                Kitkun                       Extremor               eoncommander

                                    Nay-      Ovi_187                  Juletron                   Sobric
                                                 Cykur

                        Decrease AOE?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                 -Ue_carbon            DesConnor
                                               eoncommander

                                    Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         crashmatusow
                                               Mindseye                 Soasertsus              Howdidudothat
                                               dresda                     lifekatana              Pbhead
                                               Derek06                  Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                               Sobric                     Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                               Extremor    

                        Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension                Volt_cruelerz           Sobric
                                                Extremor          

                                    Nay-      Pirate - Jack            Major  Stress           Soasertsus
                                                 Mindseye                 Gugabalog            Howdidudothat
                                                 dresda                    DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                 Pbhead                   Derek06                 Raging Amish
                                                Ovi_187                   Warlord Mike           Kitkun 
                                                eoncommander 

                         Cause damage to shields?:

                                    Yay-      EadTaes                  Volt_cruelerz        dresda

                                    Nay-      Major  Stress           Mindseye             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog              Howdidudothat      DesConnor
                                                lifekatana               Pbhead                Derek06
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187                Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike         Kitkun                    Extremor
                                                eoncommander 
 
             Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                TheRezonator         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Derek06                   Raging Amish         Sobric
                                                SivCorp                    Kitkun                   Extremor
                                                eoncommander          

                                    Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress          Soasertsus
                                               Mindseye                  DesConnor            lifekatana
                                               Pbhead                     Ovi_187


                        No affect to Cap Ships?:

                                    Yay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                               DesConnor               Cykur                   Warlord Mike
                                               SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                    Nay-    Mindseye                  Gugabalog              Soasertsus   
                                              lifekatana                  Pbhead                  Derek06
                                              Raging Amish            Ovi_187                  Sobric

                         Increase Distortion Field (targeting) range?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Soasertsus              Sobric
                                               Kitkun                      eoncommander

                                    Nay-     lifekatana                crashmatusow          Pbhead
                                               Raging Amish           Ovi_187                  Extremor
     


            No Fix Needed-

MISSILE BARRAGE:

This has been a heated issue for several months. In the most recent patch, the devs made the graphic unique (red missile exhaust?) and extended the duration while reducing dps. Was this enough?


            Nerf Missile Barrage-

                        Decrease total damage?:

                                    Yay-      Extremor

                                    Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog             TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz          -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor             Derek06                Raging Amish
                                                 Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike 

                        Increase AM cost?

                                    Yay-      Ascension               Ovi_187

                                    Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog            TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz           -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor              Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike       Extremor
                                      
                        Decrease AOE?

                                    Yay-      Tohron                     mbaron888           Howdidudothat
                                                 JuleTron                  DesConnor            Sobric

                                    Nay-      Gugabalog                TheRezonator       Volt_cruelerz
                                                 -Ue_carbon               Derek06               Raging Amish 
                                                Ovi_187                    Warlord Mike         Extremor                          

            Buff Counters-

                        Increase range on ability interrupts?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                   TheRezonator          Raging Amish
                                               Ovi_187                  Sobric                     Extremor

                                    Nay-     Gugabalog              Volt_cruelerz            -Ue_carbon
                                                Howdidudothat        DesConnor

                         LF abilities can target caps?:

                                    Yay-      Gugabalog             TheRezonator       Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike

                                    Nay-      Volt_cruelerz         -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                                DesConnor             N3rull                   Derek06
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Extremor

                       Graphic/Audio Improvement?:
 
                                    Yay-     Eadtaes                   Deceiver_0            Volt_cruelerz
                                               Gugabalog               TheRezonator        -Ue_carbon
                                               Howdidudothat          N3rull                   lifekatana
                                               Derek06                   Cykur                   Raging Amish
                                               Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                               SivCorp                   Kitkun                   Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                     Nay-    DesConnor

            No Fix Needed-             Deceiver_0                EadTaes             Azrak_Navarion
                                              Major  Stress             Top vasari          Soasertsus
                                              ReadyMan                 lifekatana          SivCorp
                                               Kitkun                      eoncommander       


CARRIERS:

Extensively nerfed in the previous 2 patches, carriers have lost their place as a hard counter to long ranged frigates, as flak frigates can now destroy fighters much faster than they are built, and long ranged frigates can now hunt the carriers themselves down.


            Buff Carriers-

                        Decrease build penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0                Ascension            crashmatusow
                                               Pirate - Jack              mbaron888          Volt_cruelerz
                                               lbgsloan                    Gugabalog           Top vasari
                                               Soasertsus                Howdidudothat      JuleTron
                                               N3rull                        lifekatana            Derek06
                                               Cykur                       Ovi_187                Sobric
                                               Warlord Mike             SivCorp                Kitkun
                                               eoncommander 

                                    Nay-     DesConnor                Raging Amish       Extremor

                        Increase fighter HP?:

                                    Yay-    Ascension                  Mindseye              Azrak_Navarion
                                              Gugabalog                 Howdidudothat      Derek06
                                              Extremor

                                    Nay-    Pirate - Jack             mbaron888             Volt_cruelerz
                                              Soasertsus                DesConnor             lifekatana
                                              Raging Amish            Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                              Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun 

                        Reduce movement penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                    Soasertsus              Raging Amish
                                               mbaron888              Gugabalog              Howdidudothat
                                               JuleTron                  ReadyMan               DesConnor
                                               Derek06                  Sobric                     SivCorp
                                               Extremor            

                                    Nay-     Pirate - Jack            crashmatusow         lifekatana
                                                Cykur                     Deceiver_0             Ovi_187
                                               Kitkun 

            Nerf Counters-

                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?:

                                   Yay-         EadTaes                Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                                   Nay-         Mindseye               Gugabalog           Volt_cruelerz
                                                  Soasertsus             Howdidudothat     DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana               Raging Amish      Ovi_187
                                                  Sobric                    Kitkun                  Extremor


            No Fix Needed-                 Major  Stress         -Ue_carbon            Pbhead

SCOUTS:

With the recent nerf to carriers, scouts have come to the forefront as a decent anti-lrf ship, and with their new found popularity some changes have been suggested.


            Nerf Scouts-

                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?:

                                    Yay-      Volt_cruelerz            Ovi_187

                                    Nay-      Deceiver_0               Ascension             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog                Howdidudothat      Derek06
                                                Raging Amish           Sobric                   Warlord Mike 
                                                Kitkun                     Extremor

                        Increase scout supply requirement?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension                Pirate - Jack         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog               TheRezonator       Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat         Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                 Ovi_187                  Sobric                  Warlord Mike 
                                                Kitkun                      Extremor
 

                        Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension               Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog              TheRezonator         Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat        Derek06                 Raging Amish 
                                                 Ovi_187                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike 
                                                Kitkun                     Extremor
                                
            Buff Vasari Scouts-

                        Increase Hp/Shields?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0              Raging Amish         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Ascension               Pirate - Jack             Soasertsus
                                                Mindseye                TheRezonator           Howdidudothat
                                                Derek06                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                                Extremor

                                     Nay-   Gugabalog               Ovi_187

                        Increase damage?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension              Raging Amish           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             TheRezonator           Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat        Derek06                  Cykur(+.5dps)
                                                Ovi_187                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                               
                                    Nay-      Extremor


            No Fix Needed-              EadTaes                 mbaron888            JuleTron
                                               Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              ReadyMan
                                               DesConnor              lifekatana              Pbhead
                                               eoncommander

ILLUMINATORS:

The relative strength of illuminators has been under debate for some time, and many fixes have been proposed, here are a few, let me know if you’ve got others. I've done my own research, and have posted my findings.


            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?:
 
                                    Yay-      Ascension               Volt_cruelerz           Ovi_187
                                                Pirate - Jack           EadTaes                 Top vasari
                                                lbgsloan                 Gugabalog              Azrak_Navarion
                                                Soasertsus              Howdidudothat        Derek06
                                                Extremor

                                     Nay-     Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              lifekatana
                                                Raging Amish         Sobric                     Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun                  eoncommander
                                               

                        Adjust damage division between beams?:

                                    Yay-    Deceiver_0(33%)    mbaron888               -Ue_carbon
                                              Gugabalog             DesConnor                N3rull
                                               Ascension             Derek06                   Raging Amish(33%)
                                               Ovi_187               Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                               eoncommander 

                                    Nay-    Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress             Soasertsus
                                              Howdidudothat       lifekatana                  Kitkun
                                              Extremor            

                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?:

                                   Yay-      Pirate - Jack (hp only)        EadTaes          TheRezonator
                                               Ascension              Gugabalog                  -Ue_carbon
                                               Soasertsus             Howdidudothat            DesConnor
                                               -aceca-                  Derek06                      Cykur
                                               Raging Amish(Hp&Armor)  Ovi_187            Sobric 
                                               Warlord Mike           SivCorp                     Kitkun
                                               Extremor(450/500)  eoncommander

                                   Nay-      Major  Stress        Volt_cruelerz                Soasertsus
                                               lifekatana           

                        Increase supply requirement?:

                                  Yay-        DesConnor            Derek06               Kitkun 

                                  Nay-        Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             Soasertsus            Howdidudothat
                                                lifekatana              Raging Amish        Ovi_187   
                                                Sobric                    Warlord Mike         Extremor 
                                                eoncommander        
 
                        Decrease Damage?:
 
                                  Yay-        EadTaes                Ascension               Soasertsus
                                                Major  Stress        Gugabalog                ReadyMan
                                                DesConnor(Caps only)  N3rull                lifekatana
                                                Ovi_187                Extremor          

                                  Nay-        Volt_cruelerz        -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                                Derek06              Raging Amish         Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike        Kitkun                    eoncommander

                                               

            No Fix Needed-             mbaron888           Mindseye               dresda
                                              Pbhead

More to come-

1,282,165 views 566 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Holy crap. Kudos to you if you keep this thread up.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Raging, reply 1
Holy crap. Kudos to you if you keep this thread up.

I have so much f-ing free time, I'm on here almost every day, and probably will be for awhile.

+1 Loading…
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Yet another useless "what i want" thread... Sorry to come off like that, but this is exactly what it is.

Nobody ever stops to think about this..

What about the vision the developer's had for thier own game?

Originally sins was supposed to be all open mapped. No phase lanes. Orbiting planets, moons etc. But then came the multiplayer aspect which IMO is what killed those aspirations. So in came the phase lanes. Single objects per gravity well. chokepoints, and alot of buffing, and nerfing because no one seems to like how it plays in multiplayer despite the developers bests efforts to please you guys. Instead of staying true to thier own vision of what sins "should" be. I dont think sins is anything close to what the developers really wanted. Dont get me wrong it is a great game in its present state. I just think it is not a "complete" game knowing what was intended for the game, and didnt happen...Thanks to the multiplayer aspect, and sorry to say topics like this one where every kid bitching about "what they want" in the game. Do not help. If the developers granted every "wish", and the MP fans had thier way we would have superweapons that would kill everything in a grav well with one shot. Uberships, and ridiculously powered weapons, with no defenses to counter them. Look at all of the post similar to this one and you will see my point. I am just sorry it was this post i picked on. There are many like this i could have targeted. It is nothing personal against the OP.

I thought the game was balanced just fine before entrenchment came out. and early versions of entrenchment seemed to be ok to me. Yet there always seems to be "someone" who will not be happy no matter what the dev's do. They are indeed bending over backwards to make all the unnecessary changes that are being demanded by the fans. Deviating from thier own vision of what the original game should have been like to satisfy you guys.

Something new for the relentless MP crowd to think about.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Buff Vasari Scouts DMG and HP

Nerf Iums Resource cost 

Carriers Increase fighter hp , Decrease build penalty.

Scouts no change. period.

Missile Barrage Increase Am Use

Repulse Increase AM cost and Resource Cost

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Since you refer to the MP crowd as though you were not one of them you'd don't have the range of experience needed to comment on what is balanced or not in a multiplayer game. Suffice to say the most difficult (and most rewarding, imo) part of the game is multiplayer because when compared to a living, breathing human the AI just cannot compete. The AI does not use a tenth of the tactics and strategies human players use so a person playing single player will not notice half the problems an online player will.

The fact of the matter is that in multiplayer winning and losing can and does come down to the balance between counters in game. Like the carrier debate for instance. Flak frigates destroy fighters way too quickly for them to have a lasting effect on a battle, which means that long range frigates (illums especially) are capable of living longer and in greater numbers due to the effects of a very small number of flak frigates. Since LRMs have no other hard counters except scouts (which are extremely easy to destroy with anything other than an LRM) and Heavy Cruisers (which already have a nice counter ring with bombers and cost a hell of a lot more) it means LRM spammers can happily build only one unit with a bit of support and win.

That's why the more vocal online players are bitching about it, because it's not about skill or strategy or tactics if you can win the game with one uncounterable unit, which takes the fun out of the game entirely.

And now for something completely different.

On topic:

Guardians: Increase AM cost & Cap Ships Unaffected

Missile Barrage: Haven't tested it fully yet, will get back to that later

Carriers: Decrease Build Penalty

Scouts: Increase Vasari HP/Shields

Illuminators: Increase resource cost & Decrease HP (not shields)

I'm against the rest of them.

 

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Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Gardian: Decrease AM and cause dmg to sheild to repulse.

MB: No fix needed need to improve the visual and add a sound maybe.

Carriers: Actuly reducint the refire rate on flak would be a better idea from my calculations.

Scouts: No fix needed

Lums: Need either a reduction in dmg, reduction in overall sturdiness or and increase in cost. Lums are more like HCs then LRFs

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

That's why the more vocal online players are bitching about it, because it's not about skill or strategy or tactics if you can win the game with one uncounterable unit, which takes the fun out of the game entirely.

 

ALELUYA k6

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

For guardians, I favor increasing AM cost, for Missile Barrage, I favor both reducing the AoE and increasing the range of Interrupting abilities, and for Carriers, I favor eliminating the movement penalty.

 

Everyone should agree that a good RTS should avoid encouraging the spam of a single unit or ability, and all the above changes would help ensure that many strategies remain viable.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Yet another useless "what i want" thread...

I understand your argument but, I think about it like this: They didn't include a Single Player Storyline in the game, AND they continue patching attempting to get that perfect balance. That specifically tells me they poured a lot of resources and time into making it Multiplayer friendly, whether playing with friends against AI or playing against other humans.

And trust me when I say that I personally, and about everyone whose ever made an argument over a specific balance, truely appreciate the fact that the DEVs listen to us and continue to try and achieve that balance. I've already thanked them for everything: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/341335

The point of this post is not to complain, but do weed out the real issues and help the devs solve them for the better of the Sins community they've built here and on ICO. This game has one of the nsot complicated balance systems I've seen in a strategy game, and it only makes sense that the balance wouldn't be perfect, but I look back at the old versions and see how far it's come and get hopeful that it's almost there.

Sure there will always be people complaining about this and that. But the POINT behind this thread is to sort minor whining complaints from real issues that need to be addressed and find the most logical (and agreeable) way to address them, to help the devs get that perfect balance everyone here yearns for.

I still invite you to comment an make suggestions, if you feel nothing needs to be changed just say so and I'll put your vote on the board.

 

 

 

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

What?  Nothing about light frigates up there?  The forgotten and forsaken unit type, they seem to be.  Ah well, a LRF nerf (seems the blood everyone is screaming for these days is LRF...) will certainly help them. 

 

As far as guardians go, I do think an AM cost increase is good, but I don't think it will fix the problem on its own.  It goes deeper, down to the fundamental issue that a big compact fleet is an effective fleet, without exception.  This makes the guardian an idea support cruiser.  No amount of tweaking will fix that entirely.  So, my opinion would be:

  • I'd say "yay" to increase anti-matter cost.
  • I'd say "nay" to increased research cost (5-lab level is late enough, and a few extra resources won't change anything in a meaningful way; the issue isn't at what point in the game you get the ability but its effectiveness)
  • Neutral on all other points.

I think missile barrage is a nasty one to talk about.  As I said in the "nerf the damn marza" thread, the problem is more that it's either countered and becomes worthless, or it's not countered and it smokes your whole fleet.  My suggestion would be to lower its duration (and therefore number of waves) but also lower its cooldown and anti-matter cost accordingly.  This keeps its DPS the same, but prevents it from wiping out a fleet in one use.  On the other hand, it also means it will recharge sooner so you get a second chance if it was countered.

  • tentatively put me into a "none of the above" category.  I strongly believe the ability needs to be changed, but none of the changes you propose are acceptable since they will either leave it exceptional (if slightly less exceptional) or useless.

Carriers, I think are also a hard one to deal with.  The problem is you can stick a dozen flaks in a very tight formation inside your fleet, and any fighters that attempt to attack you get toasted.  If we actually had a good way to break up an enemy army, then a world opens up where fighters can be microed around the flaks to avoid fire, and the speed of the LF actually might give it some utility in bringing down the flaks.  To phrase it another way, the problem is that mobility isn't very useful in the current meta-game, so all battles boil down to a battle of attritian, which flaks and LRF excel at.  I say instead of making carriers better at a battle of attritian, focus on the meta-game that is belittling their biggest asset: mobility.  As you say, however, that's a bigger change that's probably beyond the scope of a mere patch.  Still:

  • put me into a "none of the above" category.  Change is necessary, but I don't feel any of those are the right changes.

As far as scouts go, I'm going to have to stay neutral.  I'm uncertain of improving Vasari scouts since they're already like cockroaches when it comes to snagging neutrals.  They only die if their owner wasn't paying attention or if a bunch of carriers warp in and catch them off guard.  On the other hand, they are indeed weaker than their racial equivalents.  So, neutral on all counts.

Similarly, I'm going to stay neutral on illuminators.   A small nerf wouldn't be a bad thing, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Advent having a strong LRF; the Advent has such strong synergy within their faction that you could nerf just about any other unit and it would impact the effectiveness of the LRF.

 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Like i said i had nothing personal against you Deciever, and you made some very good reply's to my coments which i respect greatly.

The point i was trying to make is that we try not to push the dev's into making Sins a mockery of what the original intended game was supposed to be with all of our "fix this" "buff that", or "nerf that" posts.

You're right i dont play multiplayer. I was a big supporter of better AI during the beta days. If you look at the game credits you will see my name there. I pushed for harder, and less stupid AI. I dont play multiplayer because i just dont like the "kid" crowd. I play to have fun. Not deal with "im leet, and you suck" drama. Some of the younger generation here take this game, and other MP games like supcom way WAY too seriously. It is just a game.

Nerf illuminator dps slightly, or increase beam recharge times. Leave all else alone. A mediocre vasari player can easily smoke an advent player because of phase missiles. Advent rely too much on shields, and fighters.

Guardian: I agree to only increase AM cost, but leave all else alone. Also push shouldnt effect cap ships.

Leave missile barrage alone. It is not all that powerful. Plus vasari dreads dont have the staying power like the marza does. It is almost useless other than for the missile barrage ability. A tec fleet with 2 dunov's, and 5 hoshinko's can easily counter it, but i dont know what i am talking about since i dont do MP :/

Leave the carriers alone. In fact i suggest that if carriers jump out that the straggling fighters are instantly destroyed if they are left behind. Light carriers were practically superweapons before all the nerf's. I remember a game where a guy jumped in 60 carriers, and nothing else. This was of course before the cost and fleet supply increase. He jumped the carriers out, but his bombers stayed behind, and destroyed everything. The early AI had a bad habit of spamming carriers as well. Now would you think of building 60+ flak frigs, and LRF's to counter this? Carriers have always been a problem since the early days. and the nerf bitching is because the dev's are trying to make them what they were intended to be from the start. SUPPORT SHIPS. Not front line spammable units. Advent seem to be the exception to the rule, because they have more wings per unit than other factions. They seem to rely too heavily on strike craft now.

I personally agree to leave scouts alone. They dont seem to be IMBA other than vasari roid capping. I am glad they added the spot mine ability which makes them usefull late game.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

In fact i suggest that if carriers jump out that the straggling fighters are instantly destroyed if they are left behind....He jumped the carriers out, but his bombers stayed behind, and destroyed everything

He jumped out and left strikecraft behind?!?! Is this even possible? Because I thought SC auto docked when you jumped out regardless.

---------------

My answers. And thanks Deciever for consolidating all the ideas into one thread.

Nerf Guardians-   Increase AM cost?:  Yay

Nerf Missile Barrage-  Decrease total damage?:   Nay

Increase AM cost?         Nay-

                        Decrease AOE?  Yay- I'm willing to see it narrowed to a 90 degree cone if it will make people happy. Let's give it a try anyway.

Buff Carriers-         Decrease build penalty?:          Yay- 

                         Increase fighter HP?:            Nay-

                        Reduce movement penalty?:         Yay- 

 

Put carriers back to the way they were (Sins version 1.12) and we won't need to nerf Illums or wonder what to do with light frigates.

The carrier nerf has broken the triangle.

 

Nerf Scouts-    Reduce damage buff against light armor?:  Nay-                      

                        Increase scout supply requirement?:       Nay-                   

                        Increase resource cost?:                  Nay-

                      No Fix Needed- Leave scouts alone.

Nerf Illuminators- Nay

            No Fix Needed- (see carriers) I'm not really sure what to do about Illums. Their overall dps is comparible to other LRF/Fleet supply. Maybe just move the damage more to the forward beams so the have to turn more.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

add me for increasing guardian repulse AM cost...everything else is fine,except vasa sb abuse and lf/lrf stats but thats another story

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

vas subverter abuse? its 20 seconds. youre just mad i blasted your entire fleet prol. use logic. not emotion.

 

ilums need a significant nerf that follows the lines of the advent thinking... low hull high shielding. thats how it should be.. therefore i suggest that lums be dropped to 500-550 hull points on par with the TEC lrm. you can drop its shielding maybe 50 points right now as its got more shielding than a TEC HEAVY CRUISER. other than that id prob decrease its dmg... maybe down to 15.5 7 dmg on the front. 4 on the sides. that way its significantly MORE powerful than the others lrms just it wont tear through ships like paper.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Yes it is still possible to jump in carriers, launch bombers then jump them right out before the bombers dock. The bombers will continue to attack until they "scuttle". It is harder to do it now than it was before, but it still can be done. Perhaps this was the "kite-ing" the dev's were reffering to.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

You can't. The meoment carriers jump out all strike craft intant dock. If SC remain behing until they auto destruct it means that teh carrier host has been destroyed.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

I'm willing to see it narrowed to a 90 degree cone if it will make people happy. Let's give it a try anyway.

 

I like this idea.

Perhaps this was the "kite-ing" the dev's were refering to.

Kite-ing is the term for the tactic of circling the outer edge of a gravity well with your carriers. Keeping them on the move prevents certain units from dealing loads of damage to them, and thus keeps them alive for much longer than if they were holding position. They added a movement nerf to carriers to discourage this tactic, but I believe they also increased the movement speed of the carriers hard counter LF several patches ago to limit kiteing, so in a sense they seem to have nerfed carriers twice for the same reason.

except vasa sb abuse

I believe proletari is talking about Starbases, not subverters. There has been much debate over these Starbases even when Entrenchment was in the beta. I plan on adding that topic in a few days, so check back often.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Kite-ing is the term for the tactic of circling the outer edge of a gravity well with your carriers. Keeping them on the move prevents certain units from dealing loads of damage to them, and thus keeps them alive for much longer than if they were holding position. They added a movement nerf to carriers to discourage this tactic, but I believe they also increased the movement speed of the carriers hard counter LF several patches ago to limit kiteing, so in a sense they seem to have nerfed carriers twice for the same reason.

Hence why I dont see why they nerfed carrier speed sicne if you were using the counter then kitting didnt matter to much. Nerfing carrier speed did only 1 thing encorage more LRF spams.

I believe proletari is talking about Starbases, not subverters. There has been much debate over these Starbases even when Entrenchment was in the beta. I plan on adding that topic in a few days, so check back often.

This was debated before and the result will be the same. It will remain as is so don't even bother with it.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

This was debated before and the result will be the same. It will remain as is so don't even bother with it.

Your absolutely right, but I'm trying to be objective, so my personal opinion (that happens to be the same as yours) will not prevent me from posting the argument

 

Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top

I have 2 major problems with this kind of feedback.

1) Most people play TEC, to a lesser extent people play Advent and even less popular Vasari.  If you leave it to the community to decide then that order of popularity WILL become the order of effectiveness in game.

2) All this whining is from multiplayer people who play small quick games, I don't want my single player games balanced and effected based solely on 2 or 3 hour games.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

1) The least people play TEC. Most people play advent followed by Vasari.

2) Any of the stats changes will ahve little incidence ont he single player as the AI still will not chnage the way it plays the game.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

1) Most people play TEC

I believe that no one {except maybe the developers} really knows that for sure. If your basing it on the Starbase poll, then your logic is flawed. Most people here are giving their opinion on how to improve the game's balance, not which race should be better than the others.

I don't want my single player games balanced and effected based solely on 2 or 3 hour games.

That's fine I can understand that because I dont wan't my multiplayer games balanced and effected solely on  4+ hour games 1 person plays against Ai who don't understand strategy and have a very limited understanding of the games mechanics.

But on this thread we both have an equal voice, so we find balance. Shall I put oyu down across the board as a "No fix needed"? I still need you to declare a definite position if I am to accurately represent you here.

All this whining is from multiplayer people who play small quick games

You seem to have issue with the Content of the thread rather than the thread its self, which is why you should cast a vote. The thread itself is a compilation and organization of other threads discussions and arguments. If you take issue with these, I made a slot just for you (and incidentally me on some) as "No fix needed", place your complaints over "Mp players whining" on the other threads please.

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Add hp to fighters.

Flak needs no fix.

Carriers back to 25% build rate.

Buff to Vas scout Hp.

Add am cost to repulse no other fixes needed.

Illums need no fix.

Incease malice time to collect damage.

Decrease kol main gun am cost.

Make dunovs abilities so that it doesnt have to face target.

Reduce armor penalty for nano.

Reduce damage lrf do to lf.

Posiibly make sovas armor buff to fighters for all carriers within a range of the sova.(make the armor buffs less than they currently are)

 

Nice thread. Could be a bit more condesned. k1

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

-LRMs in general need to cost more (cost and supply).  They are effective against many units and defences, so this versitility should be punished.  Illums could probably use additional nerfs on top of that; they are far too durable for such a powerful long range weapon.

-Agree with carrier build time penalty reduction, and guardian AM cost increase.

-No opinion on the other issues listed.

 

Not discussed on the OP:

-Light frigates desperately need a buff.  They don't scale well due to low DPS (% based weapon upgrades don't help them much) and get completely demolished by LRMs before they can even get to the units they are supposed to counter.

-Carrier caps desperately need a buff, as no one uses them.  Having a few extra strike craft slots does NOT make up for having the worst firepower and health, and the strike craft build penalty hurt them badly.  Early game they lose to any other cap (even the support type ones) and they also tend to have weak level 6 abiltiies.  Since most competitive Sins games end without building a 2nd cap ship, carrier caps just have no chance at ever seeing use.

 

 

 

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

_~Guardians~_

Repulse:

Yay

Yay

Nay

Nay

Buff Counters:

Yay

Nay

_~MB OF DOOM! (I've won games with rep bays in a star formation around this a pji and the rest of the slots used on hangars with flak.) GO PJI!~_

Nay

Nay

Nay

Nay

Yay

Yay

_~Carriers~_

Yay

Yay

Yay

Nay

_~Scouts~_

Nay

Nay

Nay

Nay

Yay

_~Illuminator Scum Spammers~_

Yay

Yay

Yay

Nay

Yay

I hope that this is looked at.