Advent has:

Better LRM

Better Flak

Better HC

Better Caps

Better support cruiser (gardian)

Better late game econ then TEC

Basicly better everythign in the end right?

mmm... tec's caps are better.

I mean... a lv 6 marza can OWN an entire fleet... (or, at least the lmfs, lfs, and some of the support cruisers)

and an lv 6 colony can save your fleet... (expecially if they focus fire on your marza, the meanies)

In terms of raw combat power, that's a definite yes.  However, as Amish has already mentioned, the assailant is a shocking capital ship assassin.

Not really.  The defense vessel deals more damage, but the sentinel receives a pretty potent special ability.  The sentinel is slightly tougher, but slightly more costly.  Seems roughly on par, certainly not a measurable advantage.

This is another arguable point.  On a per-command basis, the enforcer deals slightly less damage, but has slightly more health.  It certainly has the better special abilities, but its attack upgrades are more expensive.  Again, seems like a pretty evenly weighted situation. 

However, it's worth noting that the destra is at its worst in the vs Vasari matchup.  Between phase missile bombers and nanos, the destra is really vulnerable.  In fact, I usually upgrade all my hull research before bringing out the destra against a Vasari opponent because nanos kills them so easily otherwise.

In a general sense, yes, the Advent have the best capital ships in the game.  On the other hand, Vasari are hands down the best capital ship killers.

Goes without saying.  That thing is a monster.  That said, Vasari do have the best tools to bring it down.

Where'd that come from?  The opposite is true!  Advent have by far the weakest economy (aside from their early game boost courtesy of the progen), and their only saving grace in the late game is allure of the unity.  Great upgrade, but the TEC and Vasari have better.  Their mid-game economy is an absolute wreck, since there's largely nothing between trade ports and allure.

I've always found Advent an interesting faction.  They've got the best weapons and the best shields, coupled with the best auxiliary support.  In other words, the best standing fleet.  However, they have a lot of outstanding issues.  The most obvious in the vs Vasari matchup is they have on real way to deal with shield bypass.  It absolutely wrecks havoc on the Advent, and is only made worse by the fact that their repair cruiser is borderline incompetent and expensive to bring out.  They have a shitty economy, the only real advantage being the benefits offered by the progen.  

Advent have one final weakness that's very important to remember: they are utterly dependent on their support cruisers and capital ships.  Disable, destroy, or route the guardians or the progen and the entire Advent fleet is going to be in full retreat.

I also notice we're not even going to bother comparing the disciple to the skirmisher.  Kind of strengthens what I've been saying around here for some time:  the light frigate just doesn't have a substantial role within the larger fleet.

Something shield mitigation is broken.

If you see the codes, the firing rate difference is only 0.5 sec. (illum 6.5, assault 6.0).

From the replay, I think advent's shield mitigation is not working right.

Or, I also suspect that "2.5" duration sec may affect the overall damage as well, or can be both.

As I said again and again for a long time, illum is overpowered and the cost of illum needs to be increased a lot. I've been talking this since 1.05 original and this is nothing more than just confirmation of my claims (as well as others')

You're looking at it entirely wrong, but are actually right - Shield Mitigation is broken.

It's got nothing to do with rate of fire or anything of the sort; Shield Mitigations mechanic is (brokenly) simple - for every ten damage you take, it goes up 1%, and then every second, it loses 1.25%.

This means if you deal more than ~12 Damage Per Second, it goes up. If you deal less than that, it goes down. 

So the Illuminator, dealing 8 DPS forward, continues to hit a 15% mitigated ship. The Assailant (upgraded or no) is dealing more than 12DPS, and so the Illums shield mit climbs to the cap, then sits there. Even at 40% shield bypassing, this means any hit that fails to punch through is dealing half the damage of the illuminator... and thus less damage overall because the starting damage was high enough to raise sheild mitigation at all.

This fight didn't show how broken illums were or weren't (An interesting discussion in its own right), it showed how badly sheild mitigation works in practice.

How about the kostura. I have had jj use 6+ on my fleet destroying my fleet. Advent have no such thing that disables and damages.If there is a huge advent fleet just use the kostura.Tec has mb and kills planets with its sw.Advent have no offesive end game weapons so their fleet is the only thing they have to end game.

In practice, you rarely see superweapons.  In fact, I've never seen superweapons used in a multiplayer game.

Better LRM:  Hands down YES

Better Flak:  While Advent has highest DPS, it has lowest hull+shields.  And Sentinels take 5 supply instead of 4.  All fairly comparable.

Better HC:   Again, all have advantages and disadvantages...its a wash.

Better Caps:  Arguably yes, but this is not as clear an advantage as it once was before the Progen nerf and Marza buff.

Better Support Cruiser:   You know, I personally think the humble Hoshiko is the best support cruiser in the game for its low cost and utility.  Guardian is good enough to be in contention for #1 though.

Best late game Econ:   Umm..TEC.  How do you figure Advent?

Oh, and don't forget, Advent has marginally better carriers and scouts!

To get back on track, the only thing here that is so far out of whack is the Illuminator, in that it not only performs the role of an Long Range frigate, but can maul opposing LRF's, is reasonably competitive against HC's -- and to boot, in the current balance of the game, its chief counter of strikecraft can be easily neutralized.

You are playing different multiplayer games man....I see superweapons in probably 2/3 of the large Entrenchment games I play.

It is only competitive against HC in use with guardians.  Plain Illuminators get raped by HC otherwise even with progenitor/halcyon help.

[_]-Greyfox

Only think you need to do to fix illuminatiors is to remove the sidebeams, why do they even have those anyways? none of the other lrms can fire insta damage beams off to thier sides.

If you remove everything thats different about each unit from their dopplegangers in other races, then there is no reason to have other races at all.  It is for flavor and variety.  Viva la difference!

[_]-Greyfox

Because they're designed to move in and attack large fleets rather than sporadic groups of ships.

The best fix is to make the Illum more of an advent unit. It should have more shields than health and armor should be low. I get that it's tier three, but because of the MASSIVE bonus it gets with instant hit beams. It starts with over 600 health. Knock that down to at least 500. Also, kill the armor a bit.

I'm not sure how much lowering the damage output's gonna do. I'd say -25% ball park is the right amount. Either that or make the thing much more frail. Either way, something does need to be done. Not a massive fix, just something.

Tech has best HC in the game and the best economy THROUGHOUT the game. Advent also has the weakest hulls and armour, and it takes 3 labs to get that better LRF -better hurry-

Vasari has the best technology to defeat the advent (phase missiles bypassing their strong shields to their weak hull/armour)

I also think their flak is the worst...

wow we are getting completely off topic here...but i'll continue going on a tangent.  

as for the one who said that the vasari have a better starting cap...that's false.  the progenetor is the best starting cap.  discount on planet colonization, healing abilities with a certain area to keep ships alive, and malice to spread more damage, also don't forget ressurection, which gives instant levels to a cap ship of another one dies.

Have to disagree. Shield regen can be interrupted (someone say akkan or radiance?), while Nano-disassembler can't. I don't think I need to go into why nano is a superior ability.

Malice has been nerfed to kingdom come and, while still marginally useful, largely serves only to drain anti-matter that could be spent on shield regen. Gravity bomb, in comparison, gives you those few more crucial seconds to kill fleeing ships *cough* Marza *cough* Progen *cough*.

Resurrection is a situationally useful ability that is completely worthless if you are rolling over your opponent. Furthermore, given that the Progen is usually the first ship to come out, the Progen itself tends to be the ship that you want to resurrect. Planet suction, on the other hand, is a fantastic ability that not only speeds up the destruction of planets, but gives you money in return.

Progen obviously has the better colonization ability, but three strikes to one hit, this player is out.

PS Let's also not forget that there is an entire thread dedicated to surviving an ecounter with the egg. The only other capital ship that gets that kind of attention is the Marza with MB.

The proj is better then the egg your saying then...

Proj is good, no denying. Is it better then the Egg? In most situations no , and im not going to list them all out.

I personally think Egg is #1 as well.  Progen is very good though..probably #2.

comparing light frigates is difficult as they help in racial strategies (disciple's steal antimatter = interesting for an antimatter dependant faction..)

 TEC's and Vasari's being able to disable supports = awesome

ofc they die pretty fast, (running behind their fleet if AI = targeting = interesting) but they run out-of-use pretty fast 2,  after just using their ability once/twice they've done more then enough 2 help the fleet for that cost

about lums  i dunno,  comparing a T1 assailant with a T3 illum doesnt sound fair

though i do agree on the problem with lums having lower shield mitigation when they fire 1 on 1 and not using their side-beams (ofcourse  in large battles, u'll rarely see 1 on 1 fights..)

imho just buff the lum slightly,  like has been said b4,   50 health/shield  -1 armor,  something like that,  make them a lil bit more counterable

The Egg, Progen, and Marza are the best three caps in the game now. I have a hard time conceding the Egg is better, because I love the thing, but the Mothership's bonus brings HUGE econ bonuses to Advent players. I'm sorry, but when you can get -60% off cost in creds & resources, I find this upgrade to be simply unparalleled by any other ability in overall impact in the game.

Not to mention the Mothership also brings with it shield regen, the ultimate Illuminator supporter. If malice was still as strong as it was back in the 1.05 days, I would say hands down the Mothership is better, but now it's a very VERY tight competition.

The level 6 ability on the Progen is uniquely powerful. Bringing back a level 5-6 cap is backbreaking to an opponent. He does all that work just for you to bring an annoying ship back.

The egg is powerful. Very Powerful. I'm sorry though. When you consider that the Mothership is why Advent economy early on doesn't suck, I have to hand the name of "best overall cap" to the mothership. It brings early game impact to colonization and battle. The egg early on is a crucial fighting cap, but until level 6 it doesn't have sizable econ impact.

One thing that someone mentioned somewhere which seems quite valid to me is that Quick Start is tilting the balance in favor of Advent.

Quick Start is what allows Advent the possibility of teching straight to Illums and not really falling behind much in terms of numbers. Before with Normal start, Vasari could opt to build a military lab before building extractors and really start making assailants very early and massing them without needing a 2nd frig factory right away. To a lesser extent, TEC could too. But now, with homeworld already upgraded, cap ship factory, extractors and scouts all already built, it takes a lot away from the early game decision making that people used to have to make...e.g. upgrade homeworld or not.

An advent that "rushed" to illuminators would either face twice as many assailants or LRMs or his opponent would have a much better econ already. There was more time for the Vasari neutrals advantage to play out, especially when neutrals are far away and also more time for TEC trade to start turning a net gain if they chose the econ route.

Now the earliest econ advantage anyone can get is the progenitor's colonize which can have an immediate effect before any neutrals are found and certainly before trade is up. When an advent is 1 or 2 phase jumps away from an opponent, they can think very offensively now whereas before with normal start, they would be probably much more defensive and worrying about being rushed. The extra resources from the home planet allows the constant Illum production that would have been impossible before.

Now by the same token, you could say that TEC and Vasari can tech quickly to carriers which are tier 3 for them. But their carriers do not seem to have any definate advantage over Advent carriers and in fact, the TEC are worse in my opinion.

Ironically, the Advent have the easiest time countering Illum rushing with the strongest scouts and early carriers. Anyway, this is just something for the devs to consider in the overall balancing act. I play mostly big team games. In 1v1 or versus AI, I don't know. Maybe make Vasari and TEC scouts stronger or cheaper. I do not really see the balancing need to give Advent the strongest scout.

Every races scouts can beat back Illums. Not just Advent. I've done it with each race. Even Vasari. TEC scouts were especially fun with their little bomb ability. 40 scouts plus they destroy frigate factories and labs. So much fun.

Advent scouts can probably be left alone. TEC scouts could use a little more shields. Vasari scouts are ok. Assailants should be make a little tougher. I'd say make them either cheaper (they are tier 1 devs), or make them tougher by giving them more shields (+100 ish). LRMS are too frail....but I don't know how you fix this. I'd say maybe a slight buff in health and armor.

While I agree with you in the general case, I think this is matchup dependant.  The egg is definitely at its best and the progen at its worst in the Advent vs Vasari matchup, so if we're speaking specifically about that situation then I have no problems saying that the egg is the most powerful cap out there.