ThirdProphecy ThirdProphecy

Clan Council

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Clan Council

Lets decide a few things, eh?

from Sins Forums
https://www.sinsladder.com

https://www.sinsladder.com/forum/
39,842 views 78 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Great work Third, it is great that someone finally took the initiative of forming this structure.As for other organized clans, anybody hear from SobanForce or RaY?


Haven't heard from RaY or SF, and the Space Ponies haven't popped in yet (at least they haven't identified themselves.)

I would nominate Maelstrom for 3v3. I'm surprised people like Entanglement over Maelstrom.The nice thing about Maelstrom is that while there ARE planets to expand to, every HW has 3 possible directions to be concerned with, and neighbors are not far away. This creates opportunities to either expand, attack, or fortify depending on what strategy someone is employing.


What Clan are you representing so I can color code it correctly?
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
RaY no longer exists, at least, all the active members are part of X now.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
RaY no longer exists, at least, all the active members are part of X now.


Good to know, thanks!
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Fleet size needs to be Normal, IMO.
Build rate could be normal as well.. but Fast is fine.


Maelstrom is a good 3v3 map.

Razor's Edge should be in the 2v2 list not just 3v3. (It's only 20 planets, 2 lanes, small enough for 2v2 definitely, and how it plays as 2v2 can be very interesting.)


And I think fire/ice is an interesting 2v2 map.. but maybe I'm alone on that one. For Maelstrom and Razor's Edge 2v2 I'm sure those should be up there.

Haeso, I understand your point about having random planets/resources and it being a pain if your in a "bad start position"... Thats a good point, but at the same time, I think a "type" of tournament that includes random planets/resources is important...It judges how well you ADAPT to a different scenario... If you don't know how far away your opponent is immediately, whether you'll have lots of metal or crystal, etc...It makes things more exciting and require more instant-decision-making.Otherwise, we'll just memorize what the best tactic is for any given map ...


Thank you!

Exactly right.

Being good is being able to adapt to the situation.
If you're only good because your "perfect build order" fails without a 2/2 roid and a barely defended 2/2 desert near by.. well then, not so good are you?

It DOES suck though when one person has a 2/2 roid, an awesome 2/2 desert or 2/1 terran, and you have a 1/1 roid and 2 2metal volcanos by you.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
Fleet size needs to be Normal, IMO.Build rate could be normal as well.. but Fast is fine.Maelstrom is a good 3v3 map.Razor's Edge should be in the 2v2 list not just 3v3. (It's only 20 planets, 2 lanes, small enough for 2v2 definitely, and how it plays as 2v2 can be very interesting.)And I think fire/ice is an interesting 2v2 map.. but maybe I'm alone on that one. For Maelstrom and Razor's Edge 2v2 I'm sure those should be up there.Haeso, I understand your point about having random planets/resources and it being a pain if your in a "bad start position"... Thats a good point, but at the same time, I think a "type" of tournament that includes random planets/resources is important...It judges how well you ADAPT to a different scenario... If you don't know how far away your opponent is immediately, whether you'll have lots of metal or crystal, etc...It makes things more exciting and require more instant-decision-making.Otherwise, we'll just memorize what the best tactic is for any given map ...Thank you!Exactly right.Being good is being able to adapt to the situation.If you're only good because your "perfect build order" fails without a 2/2 roid and a barely defended 2/2 desert near by.. well then, not so good are you?It DOES suck though when one person has a 2/2 roid, an awesome 2/2 desert or 2/1 terran, and you have a 1/1 roid and 2 2metal volcanos by you.


I need to know which clan you represent so that I may color code your suggestions correctly :D
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Wow Clan BSG is in for sure.

We nominate Fulcrum for 3v3.
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
As representative of the Drunken Pirates...we wont be adding to this as we dont have a large enough following in the game to deem reasonable to partake.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
Fleet size sould be normal for 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3, but large for 4v4 and 5v5. (You need more ships for bigger maps, and giant battles are awesome, too.)

What do you mean by using pirates, yay or nay, and if so, what setting?. I didn't think there were settings besides on and off...
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
I would nominate Maelstrom for 3v3. I'm surprised people like Entanglement over Maelstrom.The nice thing about Maelstrom is that while there ARE planets to expand to, every HW has 3 possible directions to be concerned with, and neighbors are not far away. This creates opportunities to either expand, attack, or fortify depending on what strategy someone is employing.


What Clan are you representing so I can color code it correctly?


Clan X
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
I don't think Random Maps should be included as they are very unbalanced.
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
I need to know which clan you represent so that I may color code your suggestions correctly


Innociv is part of X now
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
double post :(
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Okay, all suggestions have been updated except for....


Fleet size sould be normal for 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3, but large for 4v4 and 5v5. (You need more ships for bigger maps, and giant battles are awesome, too.)What do you mean by using pirates, yay or nay, and if so, what setting?. I didn't think there were settings besides on and off...


What clan is contributing? :D
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
Hopeful Horizon
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Fleet size sould be normal for 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3, but large for 4v4 and 5v5. (You need more ships for bigger maps, and giant battles are awesome, too.)What do you mean by using pirates, yay or nay, and if so, what setting?. I didn't think there were settings besides on and off...


I meant settings like which map :P Sorry I was unclear, it is kinda confusing that way.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
I could alert SF to this if someone wants me too, I am slitly active in thier forums.
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
I meant settings like which map Sorry I was unclear, it is kinda confusing that way.



Oh, in that case, I'd have to agree with the Galactic Empire and say sometimes (about pirates).
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
Adaption my ass. You adapt to starting with an ice planet and a volc planet near your homeworld while your opponents gets asteroids.

Untill there is a way to script which planets spawn based on which planets spawn somewhere else, random is garbage.

I'd love to have a map that changes each time you play it. But it has to be even.

If there becomes a way to randomly spawn planets, then have the same planets for the other team, that'd work but as of now there is only a "random" function, and no scripting at all.

Tournaments are about beating the other team, not beating the surrounding militia or being forced to get two civ labs. I'll be making a lot of different map styles all with customized militia as well as mirrored planets.

I have no interest in an uneven game. It's absurd to even suggest a truly random map for a competitive game. Random elements are fine when they're scripted so it's balanced. True random for the sake of "variety" is not good for competitive play.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
I really like random elements, I don't want a perfect build order for a map, but it absolutely must be equal for each team if you're being competitive. I cannot stress that enough. If I knew how to mod it to assign a predetermined amount of resource asteroids to each planet I'd do that too.

So give me scripting, or no random.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with haeso as to it not being good for competitive play, but if people want to play it, I'm not going to say anything. As for random resources around planets and asteroids, that really annoys me too.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with haeso as to it not being good for competitive play, but if people want to play it, I'm not going to say anything. As for random resources around planets and asteroids, that really annoys me too.


Random elements can be in a separate category for competitive ladders. See "Hardcore and Skirmish" above :P
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
Added, thanks for your input!

As it stands now, I have a general idea of what the clans are thinking competitively.

The next step is uniformity, founding a council, and constructing a web-based ladder.

I'm willing to set up a website with a forum pertaining purely to competition rules and settings, posting the current rules, etc. As for the council, every clan that wants to participate will be admitted (with some prerequisites, such as an official announcement and thread on the Sins forums, to prevent fake clans :P) and the ladder idea is a huge undertaking that I will need assistance with.

For examples of online gaming ladders, check out www.teamwarfareleague.com
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
Random is fine third, but imbalanced is not. I don't want a Separate ladder where our games are decided by skill with the totally random fluke of a shitty starting location costing me a game. Untill we have scripting to do what I mentioned, random elements should be avoided by competitive gaming entirely.

We must keep games even with each team having an equal chance of winning, with the only factors deciding a win being Race selection (I wish this was not a factor, but it always will be! keep that in mind) and in game skill. If your definition of skill revolves around "adapting" then realize this - adaption should be reworded as countering. You're not playing against the random planet spawns, you're playing against other people. The adaption should revolve around scouting, building appropriate amounts of ships to counter their ships, expansion, all of these things. But it should not be your ability to so massively outplay someone that you can come back even with a huge starting handicap. Nor is it to thoroughly stomp someone because of an ideal starting location.

Would you want to start without a vespene gesyer in starcraft just for "variety"? I don't think so. Be reasonable, understand that variety is good, and does help competitive gaming, new and balanced maps change the game a little, but keep to the fundamentals. Allowing us to play the same game, but have some different options and avenues of victory (and defeat). Yet better than variety for competitive gaming, is the equal playing field. As it is, of the most competitive games right now, the majority are FPS games. Why? Because it's pretty damn hard to imbalance a game where everyone has access to the same couple weapons and spawn locations switch periodically. The only difference is skill, not race(team) imbalance, not poor map design(Switching sides), no random deaths (There is no train to come out of nowhere and blindside you like starting with two ice planets in sins for an FPS).

If you want variety, and you want balance, push for real dev tools. Once I have those, I can make all the randomly spawning maps you want, and they'll be balanced. But untill then, choose balance for competitive gaming, it's what's best for us right now.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
Random is fine third, but imbalanced is not. I don't want a Separate ladder where our games are decided by skill with the totally random fluke of a shitty starting location costing me a game. Untill we have scripting to do what I mentioned, random elements should be avoided by competitive gaming entirely.We must keep games even with each team having an equal chance of winning, with the only factors deciding a win being Race selection (I wish this was not a factor, but it always will be! keep that in mind) and in game skill. If your definition of skill revolves around "adapting" then realize this - adaption should be reworded as countering. You're not playing against the random planet spawns, you're playing against other people. The adaption should revolve around scouting, building appropriate amounts of ships to counter their ships, expansion, all of these things. But it should not be your ability to so massively outplay someone that you can come back even with a huge starting handicap. Nor is it to thoroughly stomp someone because of an ideal starting location. Would you want to start without a vespene gesyer in starcraft just for "variety"? I don't think so. Be reasonable, understand that variety is good, and does help competitive gaming, new and balanced maps change the game a little, but keep to the fundamentals. Allowing us to play the same game, but have some different options and avenues of victory (and defeat). Yet better than variety for competitive gaming, is the equal playing field. As it is, of the most competitive games right now, the majority are FPS games. Why? Because it's pretty damn hard to imbalance a game where everyone has access to the same couple weapons and spawn locations switch periodically. The only difference is skill, not race(team) imbalance, not poor map design(Switching sides), no random deaths (There is no train to come out of nowhere and blindside you like starting with two ice planets in sins for an FPS).If you want variety, and you want balance, push for real dev tools. Once I have those, I can make all the randomly spawning maps you want, and they'll be balanced. But untill then, choose balance for competitive gaming, it's what's best for us right now.


Ouch :P

Noted.