So if your oldest is at a computer fair and sees some new Stardock banner, and gets excited and says, "Look Daddy! There you are!" and points...but while pointing accidentally pokes a grouchy man...you are all right with that man grabbing him by the shoulder and reprimanding him? You may say, well my son wasn't acting out of control before that....well what if that man thinks he was? And he feels grabbing your over exuberant child to calm/restrain him is acceptable? You're good with that?

RE-read Mason's blog.

To quote: "They were jumping, yelling, hopping up on the counter, playing with the soda fountain, and basically running amok"

We are not talking about a child who just accidentally walked by a grouchy man and stepped on his foot by accident. We are talking about children that were hopping up on the counter, playing with the soda fountain and just being out of control.

My wife nor myself would allow our children to behave like that.  And if they were out of control like that and accidentally hurt an adult, yea, I would meekly take an adult reprimenading my child in the way Mason did because I would feel shame for not having raised my children properly.

Do I think there's only one way for children to be raised? Not at all.  But in my experience, the kids that can't control themselves are the ones who end up living poorer lives in the long term.  Mason didn't lose control here. He snagged teh child b ythe shoulder and told him in a serious voice that he should go sit down before someone got hurt. 

 

I'm sorry but I don't parent that way. I teach my kids to keep their hands to themselves unless someone is touching them physically in a way they don't like. Then they can fight back or run.

We aren't talking about how YOu raise your children. We are talking about the children in Mason's blog.  IF your children behave in the way the ones in Mason's blog do, then it does apply to you, otherwise you're being defensive.

The one example you did give doesn't make your child look bad, only you in that you taught your child that it is okay to be malicious.  I am sure maliciousness can make someone king of the trailer park but it is not a very good life skill.

And if they accidentally touch someone or step on someone's toes I will go to bat for them. If they do it because they are acting out, then they will be disciplined BY ME after they apologize.

The issue is that they were acting out BEFORE they stepped on Mason's toes.  The time to be disciplined was before they interacted with Mason, not after.

Look, I guess my problem with this is I do keep my kids in control. At least no one has ever spoken to them or to me about their behavior in earnest. So it is very difficult for me to imagine a kid being so out of control a stranger needs to grab them. And yes, I've seen kids I thought were out of control, but the very last thing on my mind would be to grab at them, or physically restrain them.

And what we are saying is that we have seen children so out of control that it would make sense.  Last week at baseball, my 5 year old son got mad at another kid and pushed him off the stands and hurt him (not badly but enough to make him cry). The other kid had smacked my son in the face. But my son's reaction was over the top and I disciplined him right then and there and told him mom what had happened.  But I have seen plenty of cases where a mom will sit there and let their kids hurt other kids or disrupt adult activities. I wouldn't grab a kid over anything like that and generally rely on my kids to resolve inter-kid stuff themselves. 

But there is a certain point where a child is so out of control, so disruptive that if the other parent hasn't put a stop to it themselves that I feel they've forfeited their rights and I feel free to intervene.  I've never actually had to do that with other children because I do interact with the adult first but that's only because it was more convenient for me to deal with the adult. If the adult had been further away, I would have dealt with the child (not physically). 

If I had been in Mason's shoes, I would have done the same thing, however.  I can picture the situation he describes and I've seen similar things.

I am not suggesting Mason was out of control. I am saying what he himself said, he was grouchy. Why did he mention it if not pertinent to the situation? It leads the reader to believe on a day when he wasn't in pain he would over look the situation...or at least handled it differently.

That's fine, but we have a different opinion and that's all.  I think the onus is on parents to control their children, not on adults to tolerate children.  I know what it's like to have difficult children and I know they can be controlled with proper parenting.  If other parents want to let their kids run wild and free and out of control, that's fine as long as it's not harming me or my family. Children who lack discipline become adults who lack discpline and they end up at the bottom rungs of society as a result.  Too many parents ruin their children's futures by not being tougher in the present.

Tova - re-read his response. Let me draw your attention to the bolded part. It is not a carte blanche

But that's just IT Doc. In MY OPINION grabbing a child is NEVER tit for tat. This whole thing is based on what Mason thought was "right." Well what is the difference between being poked or getting a toe stepped on? Not much.

And if the old grouch in my example believes he is right, as Mason does, then he can use the very argument Brad does. This kid is out of control. I grabbed his shoulder because IMO his parents weren't watching him well.

My father-in-law is this grouchy old guy. And he makes the same arguments Brad does....but in his opinion, the kids don't have to be running around out of control...they just have to be talking when adults have not asked them too.

It is better for adults to keep their hands to themselves when it comes to other people's children. Talk to the parent.

you're being defensive

hahahhahaha. could that be because you keep referencing my children?

We are not talking about a child who just accidentally walked by a grouchy man and stepped on his foot by accident. We are talking about children that were hopping up on the counter, playing with the soda fountain and just being out of control

I agree....but would you also agree that some people see kids in general as being out of control when they are acting age apporpriate? Then could these people not use your argument to manhandle "normal" children? That is my point....its about opinion...and I think its better not to touch other people's kids.

Restraining anyone against their will...or in the case of a minor child, against their parents wishes, is at the very least a very unwise thing to do.

Unwise?  Perhaps in some cases.  Since this is not a kidnapping or custody issue, I doubt we can give that a carte blanche unwise.  You child is heading over a cliff on his bike.  I grab him and restrain him.  Unwise?  He steps on Mason's toes.  Mason is a teddy bear.  Mason does nothing.  The guy behind him has a short fuse.  he belts them across the room.  Unwise?

Absolutes have no business when you are talking about an abrogation of parental responsibility, and an out of control child.  Mason just may have saved that child from a real abuser.  best to pick your fights.

But that's just IT Doc. In MY OPINION grabbing a child is NEVER tit for tat. This whole thing is based on what Mason thought was "right." Well what is the difference between being poked or getting a toe stepped on? Not much.

See above. You are under a mistaken impression that it is a tit for tat. it was not. And if you let your children run wild, best keep them in a cage. Your rights end at the tip of my nose, and that goes for your parental ones as well. Abrogate them, and deal with the consequences (peaceful as they are). NO ONE has stated anything about an adult abusing or tit for tatting a child.

I agree....but would you also agree that some people see kids in general as being out of control when they are acting age apporpriate? Then could these people not use your argument to manhandle "normal" children? That is my point....its about opinion...and I think its better not to touch other people's kids.

Absolutely. I briefly dated a girl who thought kids, on a playground playing and laughing and having a good time was an extreme nuisance and that their parents should be ashamed for having such bratty disruptive kids. Keep in mind we were walking through said park.

I think the judgement being used is dependent on the situation (all are different) and the parties involved. There are no absolutes. Most here are advocating for reasonable measured responses that fit the situation. Grabbing a kid's shoulder isn't the fix-all, but there are times where it becomes an appropriate response.

But there is a certain point where a child is so out of control, so disruptive that if the other parent hasn't put a stop to it themselves that I feel they've forfeited their rights and I feel free to intervene. I've never actually had to do that with other children because I do interact with the adult first but that's only because it was more convenient for me to deal with the adult. If the adult had been further away, I would have dealt with the child (not physically).

We agree on this completely...just in dealing with the child I would not touch him/her.

But my son's reaction was over the top and I disciplined him right then and there and told him mom what had happened. But I have seen plenty of cases where a mom will sit there and let their kids hurt other kids or disrupt adult activities. I wouldn't grab a kid over anything like that and generally rely on my kids to resolve inter-kid stuff themselves.

Kids hurting kids...I get involved. I jump right in usually because in the heat of the moment there is no time to ask another mom to please stop her son from bashing my kid's head in.

I think the onus is on parents to control their children, not on adults to tolerate children.

hahahah We do actually agree on this. I think children should be well behaved and non disruptive in public.

Children who lack discipline become adults who lack discipline and they end up at the bottom rungs of society as a result. Too many parents ruin their children's futures by not being tougher in the present.

Again we agree....we only disagree on who should give the discipline...and I will never be ok with a stranger grabbing my kid.

NO ONE has stated anything about an adult abusing or tit for tatting a child.

The point is the stranger doing the grabbing is determining what is right and what is wrong...then going about grabbing and reprimanding the child. People as in Zoomba's example above do not always operate from the same place of what is normal for kids and what isn't.

I advocate keeping adults keeping their hands off children they don't know and speaking to the parent/adult when there is something wrong.

I think the judgement being used is dependent on the situation (all are different) and the parties involved. There are no absolutes. Most here are advocating for reasonable measured responses that fit the situation.

Wise wise man.

. So it is very difficult for me to imagine a kid being so out of control a stranger needs to grab them. And yes, I've seen kids I thought were out of control, but the very last thing on my mind would be to grab at them, or physically restrain them.

This is what I said LW..I have seen kids out of control. I just don't go around grabbing at them.....I speak with the parents....I don't think its right to put my hand on a strange child.

Could you have walked up to those boys and grabbed them?

IMO the kids shouldn't be in a store like that...and if for some reason the dad couldn't get around taking them he shoulda been right on top of them...briefing them on the way in not to touch anything.

I can't speak for the father, or the kids. I am only responsible for MY hands and my OWN children.

I never suggested bad behavior was age appropriate. But there are things that are considered annoying that ARE age appropriate, like crying, talking loud when trying to be quiet, playing etc, and I don't want someone grabbing my kid because they don't like it.

and we didn't hesitate to let our children out of our immediate sight like todays parents do

I hesitate because too many adults are too free with their hands, and I don't mean with reprimands. If people would learn to keep them to themselves I'd be a much happier parent.

I see a lot of kids in stores these days whose parents blatantly ignore their children yelling at the top of their lungs, running around, pulling stuff off of shelves, and any other number of behaviors that I would have been severely reprimanded for when I was a child. And the number of kids isn't necessarily a factor. I've seen women shopping with their girlfriends and ignoring the ONE unruly child they brought with them while they gab.

I occasionally will reprimand an unruly child verbally, but I have never laid hands on a stranger's child except to grab them if they're about to fall off something they're climbing on, or in some other situtation where the child could hurt themselves in the time it would take to alert the inattentive parent.

The point is the stranger doing the grabbing is determining what is right and what is wrong...then going about grabbing and reprimanding the child. People as in Zoomba's example above do not always operate from the same place of what is normal for kids and what isn't.

No.  The point is a child out of control. No one, least of all Mason would have had a second glance, until they assaulted him.  The parents failed to control the situation (which you have indicated you would have), so he did.  It is best to control the situation before it leads to more dire circumstances.

Would mine have been grabbed?  Not on your life!  We would have been out of there before he had a chance.  Sometimes it is difficult to control multiple children.  That is when I, as the parent and controlling adult, remove them from the situation. period. End of discussion.

In regards to the kids at Masons truck stop, at what age does it become 'age appropriate behavior' to jump on the counters and play with the soda fountains?

There is no appropriate age....ever.

Kids hurting kids...I get involved. I jump right in usually because in the heat of the moment there is no time to ask another mom to please stop her son from bashing my kid's head in.

What's the difference between grabbing someone else's kids when they are hurting another kid or when they are hurting an adult?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  If the kid was literally running around and hurt me, I have the right to grab him and tell him to knock it off.  I'm not going to wait for the unattentive parent to wake up because by then the kid might plow over a little old lady or other child. 

The "grumpy man" didn't smack the kid.  I would like to see you get someone arrested for grabbing someone's arm.  I see people literally pick up other peoples' kids all the time if they are being destructive, causing harm or threatening to cause harm. 

I would NEVER allow my kid to jump on countertops, run in a public place, etc!  If they did, they deserve whatever lessen they get from whomever dishes it out.  Not that I would be okay with an adult spanking my kid but I would have no problem with them grabbing them and telling them to knock it off. 

Our kids aren't perfect, no kids are.  We discipline them sometimes and it is often at an inconvenience for us.  I may want to get my grocery shopping done but if my kid is throwing a fit, I leave.  I may want to see the movie but if my kid is being loud and out of control, I leave.  I may want to have a nice meal at a nice restaurant but if my kids can't behave, I either don't go or...you guessed it, I leave.

Tova, I can't help but think that you are one of the parents that are helping destroy the respect for adults that LW was talking about.  By telling another adult to "shut her face", you certainly didn't teach your child anything about respect.  I understand you taking issue with the woman's treatment of the situation.  You didn't handle it in an adult manner though.  Don't you think you should have pointed out that it was a field that your son was appropriately playing in and that she could easily move up to where everyone else was viewing the game?

I deal with both kids and parents who misbehave all the time.  There are plenty of parents who seem to think their child can do no wrong and get defensive at the suggestion that they may have misbehaved in some way.  I see women gather together in public places with all of their respective children, talk amongst themselves and let the whole pack of kids run wild in the meantime.  Some people seem embarrassed to discipline their kids in front of other people.  I guess it would be an admission that their kid isn't perfect.

There are no perfect kids and there are no perfect parents but that doesn't mean you just throw in the towel and just say "that's just the way they are" and accept it.

 

Wow, I'm gone for a day and look what happens.
I'll try to reply to everyone as soon as I have time.

Tova;

But once you put your hands on him, well then you are my problem and we'd be throwing down.

Upon re-reading my article, I see where this comes from. I should have made myslef more clear. When I snagged the little boy by the shoulder it was initially to keep him from falling on his face after stepping on my toes. After he regained his balance was when I I warned him that he should sit down.

I suspect though, that you are probably a far better parent than either of these women are. Rowdy children fresh out of a long car ride I see all the time. These kids were WAY beyond that.

I don't regret scolding the kid, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. It isn't needed when a good parent is around, but I won't be subjected to that sort of obnoxious annoyance because someone else is too lazy or stupid to control their children in a reasonable fashion.

What's the difference between grabbing someone else's kids when they are hurting another kid or when they are hurting an adult?

I did not say I jump right in and grab their kid. I jump in a pull my kid out.

By telling another adult to "shut her face", you certainly didn't teach your child anything about respect.

Why should he respect any adult who believes it is ok to bully a toddler? I'm not giving her respect because she does not DESERVE it. As far as I'm concerned, telling her to shut her face was more than adequate.

It seems like you want me to talk reasonably to someone who is just as rude as the kids Mason describes in this article. Grab rude out of control children...talk nice to adults acting just as bad or WORSE.

Not gonna happen.

Don't you think you should have pointed out that it was a field that your son was appropriately playing in and that she could easily move up to where everyone else was viewing the game?

Uh, no. The kids played soccer all year...she knew all this already. She was at umpteen games just like me and most of them on that exact same field. I couldn't give her any new information. She was just being a bitch and bully.

There are no perfect kids and there are no perfect parents but that doesn't mean you just throw in the towel and just say "that's just the way they are" and accept it.

Well that's good because nowhere did I say or imply that.

You seem to think that because I don't want strangers grabbing my kids that my kids misbehave...the two are not related. If my kids misbehave it has nothing to do with how often strangers grab them. And if they are "angels" it has nothing to do with strangers grabbing them.

Look, I don't want strangers grabbing my kids. They are MY kids and I can decide who and who can not touch them. Strangers are not allowed to do it.

If someone has a problem with one of my kids, they need to talk to me and keep their hands to themselves. Period. Why would someone give a rude adult more consideration than a rude child? That makes no sense to me.

For the life of me I do not understand why the owner of the shop didnt politely ask the man to take the ball away from the kids or have them wait outside on the sidewalk

I don't either LW. If kids are doing stuff like this I have no problem with an adult telling them to knock it off.

As far as the soccer game thing goes...while I don't think what you did was malicious, I do think you could have handled it differently. When children are disturbing adults, and the adult says something verbally to them, the correct response would have been to just ask your child to play a little farther away from her car.

There was no way to do that and still be able to see both of my kids. Look she parked there KNOWING that is the place all the kids play. She knew I was his mom, we'd been to a million games. She coulda said, "Hey T," and then whatever reason she wanted me to move him. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. But she didn't...no, she took on a nasty tone and started chastising my child.

I don't know what constitutes a bully in your book...but when an adult who is much larger and fairly unknown to a three year old takes a harsh tone and gets nasty when talking to him...he feels threatened...and there was no reason what so ever for her verbal assault.

Why didn't she talk to me like that? She's so tuff she talks trash to a 3 year old but she can't even look me in the eye? I told her to "Shut her face." because my 3 year old was standing there shaking and when I actually heard her tone of voice I wanted her to stop....immediately.

She didn't say sqat to me...not a single word.

Your damn right I played ball with him right there...while watching my son play soccer as well. Why? Because it was right. She was wrong and I don't care if she has the years that proclaim her an adult...in my book she is a bully.

Upon re-reading my article, I see where this comes from. I should have made myslef more clear. When I snagged the little boy by the shoulder it was initially to keep him from falling on his face after stepping on my toes. After he regained his balance was when I I warned him that he should sit down.

HAHAHA. All this for nothin!

Thank you for clarifying that Mason. In my world it makes all the difference.

I don't like bratty children anymore than anyone else here...but I dislike strangers putting their hands on children even less.

I thought the kid stepped on your toe, started to run off and you decided to snag him. So sorry for that misunderstanding.

Too many people don't use birth control.

Sounds to me like you have a history with this woman, which would also make all the difference in the world

Not really until that day...she came to the games to watch her son play, same as me. She never parked there before...and we acknowledged each other with a nod or something at the games, like all the other parents....I didn't know her name, but I know she knew mine because of some paper work I sent out to all the team members..fund raising stuff.

Too many people don't use birth control

I could say "like your mama" but then that wouldn't be handling the situation very well...

I'm just laughing cuz I'm finding myself really agreeing with Brad and LW.


more than once I've grabbed a kid by the arm as he went tearing inside the church to slow him (usually a him) down. If it was my kid doing it, (and they have I'm sure) it wouldn't bother me at all. They couldn't complain to me because it wouldn't have happened if they weren't running around when they shouldn't have.

Once I caught my boys running inside a church up and down the isles and I called them all to me outside the sanctuary into the back room and said in a loud voice, "sit,sit,sit. If you're going to act like animals, I'm going to treat you like animals. Don't get up until I say you can." They were like 5,7 & 8 at the time.

I had no idea my Pastor was in the next room. He almost fell off his chair laughing his head off.

I could say "like your mama" but then that wouldn't be handling the situation very well...

It would be a cheap shot, but I've come to expect that from several people here.

I hardly think you have the right to decide that for others, though.

I'm not. People should know what kind of parents they're going to be beforehand.

Well that's good because nowhere did I say or imply that.

That wasn't directed at you.  It was just a general statement.

Why should he respect any adult who believes it is ok to bully a toddler? I'm not giving her respect because she does not DESERVE it. As far as I'm concerned, telling her to shut her face was more than adequate.

That says it all.  A toddler isn't going to be able to discern an adult that deserves respect from one who doesn't.  That is the problem.  You didn't communicate with the other adult.  You simply determined you were right and she was wrong and you were going to show her what for.

I don't teach my kids to simply obey someone because they are an adult but I do try to teach them to speak to them with respect because they are an adult.  Sometimes the child is more adult than the adult.  I can't do anything about how adults behave but I can do something about how my child behaves.