Frogboy Frogboy

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,180,419 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #176 Top
What do SP-only gamers care whether or not a multiplayer option gets implemented or not?


I personally don't have any problem with people putting in their vote for an MP expansion. The game was designed to make MP possible, and if it's added and sells well, then I'm happy for Stardock and the MP fans. (Although I personally won't buy it; I have nobody to play it with. None of my gamer pals like TBS games.)

The only thing I'm arguing over is the people who are complaining that the game doesn't have MP *now*, because it feels like they're begrudging us SP fans getting one of the few modern SP-focused games.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #177 Top
Greetings:  I apologize for the weird format the previous post displayed. I struggled with a rather reluctant forum interface for quite a bit, having to paste the message piece by piece, for it would not be accepted in a single operation. For some reason, I also get an error beep every time I hit enter. The message became a morass of deleted words and sentences after many edits. I am sorry for any errors derived from that.   Vampyre: Agreed on XCom. My friends and family got to the point of playing it together by sitting around the PC and telling the harried user-in-turn what they wanted their favourite character to do next. I fully believe that game would have been improved by a multiplayer option. When you are in a LAN and close to your fellow players, you can suggest moves, coordinate them, agree on speeding up turn-passing, etc. with the greatest of ease. In any case... I know I am preaching to the choir here, but it is always rewarding to read of someone praising the games that have raised the standards for all to come. When the MP patch comes up, it will be my pleasure to ask you, NTJedi and any of the other, more sociable players, to take on the AIs as a team or to duel for a galaxy. I am sure we will all have much to learn from each other. Thank you again.
Reply #178 Top
And there is your want for a TBSMP update; no full MP is wanted.

People seem to want to play with family and friends who will have to buy the game and update.
Reply #179 Top
@Brad - your post is a most excellent, insightful and intelligent commentary.

Personally speaking, I have been let down by nearly every title I liked (major or minor) as a single player game over the past decade that went "online".

In my opinion, the magic "bullet(s)" for a single player four "X" title is simple; it must also consist of what I like to call the four "I" elements. They are (in no particular order): intricacy, immersion, impression, and improvement.

Interesting enough in your post you touched on two of them directly and the other two indirectly.
Reply #180 Top
ForesterGC: I agree. It is only logical that when you find a game you like, you will want to play it with family and friends to share the experience.  Like I said earlier, that is the reason for the mods you find on the Web for such games as MOM, Battlefield2 and XCom (For this last one, I found this site: http://ufo2000.sourceforge.net/) whose player base has found a much less favourable response than we have when it comes to multiplayer options.


Pardon the pun but, it seems clear that LAN finds a way.


It is, however, sad to behold the massive effort undertaken by brave, dedicated individuals, who usually receive no pay whatsoever for turning their favourite games into a shared experience. If that is selfishness, it is a time-consuming, demanding kind of selfishness, and I have nothing but praise for whoever lets him or herself be guided by it.


Thank you for the time taken in reading this post.
Reply #181 Top
While I do agree with the reasons, and definitely think content should come before multiplayer, I still can't stop thinking that it would be fun to play GalCiv2 with my friends.

Personally I would have been willing to pay 20$ extra to get the multiplay, even though I probably would have played it only a couple of times with my friends. I do realize I'm probably in a minority with that though .

Now Master Of Magic on the other hand is lots of fun as a multiplayer and if you haven't tried, you should. Jay Barnett did a great mod for it that allowed Hot Seat, PBEM and even Modem. Just agree not to use invisible flying ships.

Reply #182 Top
Ordinarily I would agree with the anti-multiplayer sentiments. I get tired of being a second class citizen and liking offline play. The last game to REALLY anger me was Call of Duty. A great WW2 game. However, they included no bots of any kind. The argument being "the single player component is more than enough". Er... No it wasn't. In fact, opening missions aside, I had no interest in playing most of the game again. So if you want to play half of what you've paid for, you have to play online with the griefers, morons, and those who practice 28 hours a day. If you get one kill in your first hour, you should consider yourself lucky.

So usually, I'm all for the "death to multiplayer" chants.

However, the 4X genre is the ONE GENRE of games my wife and I agree on. The one genre where we'll both be willing to play it. Turn based is perfect. We have kids, so often have to take a break. Instead of having to pause, something like Age of Wonders is perfect.

So count me FIRMLY in the "PLEASE ADD MULTIPLAYER" component. I have no desire to play it online at all, unless there was some compelling reason (like finding a bunch of sensible, mature fellow players). I just want to be able to play this great game with my wife. (Since she is as interested in it as I am, which is very VERY rare indeed.)
Reply #183 Top
the reason why i dont buy galciv 2 is that there is no multiplayer. ive bought galciv 1, great game, but without a multiplayer its going boring after 3-5 runs...

i play every game in multiplayermode like Heartsofiron2 and civ3 (neverplayed a singleplayer campaign, just multiplayer, often with friend and multiplayer ai´s).

i want pay 10 dollars more for multiplayer...

so, iam waiting for more multiplayerfun... at the moment it seems that i have wait for hoi2 doomsday (thanks to paradox for grat multiplayermode ) but i will come back from time to time to look for the multiplayer extenpansion ...

bye unic
Reply #184 Top
Long story short, this game is great, and I will always play it singleplayer. However, I play HOMM 3 a lot in hotseat mode, so and I would love to play galciv2 in Hotseat mode. Hence this game really needs a hotseat mode to make it from great to excellent.
Reply #185 Top
For me personally I have to say that I can understand the reasoning behind not having GalCiv2 multi-player.

Having said that, I do however think that of all types of games, GalCiv does lend itself better to multi-player than other games would. If you were to look at the differences between a SP and MP game, would there really be a huge difference? I am not talking about the sacrificing of features in order to put the effort into multi-player, but instead on the actual mechanics of the game.

Essentially we have a game which is played between "sides", and these sides are very distinct and all follow the same rules. Thus replacing a "side" with a "player" shouldn't really be a huge issue. Sure we may have to wait for an expansion to get multi-player or a campaign (depending on marketing of which was more important) but ultimately I believe that games which lend themselves nicely to multi-player could always use the boost.

I do have a couple of queries with the logic provided however:

#1 Did the polls ask what "type" of multi-player?

More often than not, I would love to play multi-player with someone in my own home, who is using a different computer. Was this kind of thing taken into consideration when discussing multi-player? Or was it purely online services that were asked about? I would be curious as to the number of other people like me who may not be so eager to find others across the world to play, but still love being able to do either hot seat, by email or even local LAN to play these kinds of games.

You may find that the % you found changes, though I doubt it would be significantly

#2 No Campaigns

True, Civ4 didn't come with campaigns... but it came with a fully programmable python based language which and was moddable enough to allow the community to create their own! Not only that but how hard would it then be for devleopers to make campaigns and release them in a patch using the same model that you guys do (ie serial number to get patches). I think the issue of campaigns is made mute by having a very flexible and forward thinking design to the game and mechanics themselves. Tools like moddability and scripting languages are in my opinion the future of gaming, and the sooner developers realise this and incorporate it into all their games the better off they will be.

Once they get used to incorporating it, then it no longer becomes a huge overhead as it forms the base component of any game they make. Its just a different way of thinking about game design

#3 Maybe not yet... but soon

What is the big push that is happening with the console market? Online live games? So while multi-player might not be the biggest thing for the PC at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if "cutting your teeth" on multi-player now would put you in a good position in the future where things start opening up and more and more multi-players will come online. Sure there are a lot of stand alone PC's at the moment, but 10-15 years ago there wasn't very many people on the net in general. This is growing exponentially so as the console (fastest growing tech market) arena increases, PC's will have to keep up.


Other than that... I will love playing Gal Civ 2 but know that a point will come where even the campaign and all of the extras you have put into it specifically for SP will bore me... and thats when I will turn back to multi-player games where even though everything has been exhausted from a SP point of view, I will then get another 200-500+ hours of enjoyment out of it in MP instead.
Reply #186 Top
This game certainly need a Multiplayer ability to add interest, fun and challenage into it.

For reason #1 It sacrifices single player features: Bascially, I now feel that the game has not enough single player features like a campaign without cinematic at a paragraph of text to read doesn't seems nice. At the start of the mission, the lenghty text to read, no text to speech or a small cinematic is bad. Don't even talk about the end of mission. Also that GC2 fanciful graphic has take up too much screen resolution making it hard to play for a low resolution of 1280x1024(Most Desktop users use up to this). Ship design need to be improve too to make full use of the limited resolution. So it definitely need a boost form a multiplayer experience. Random events like can be balanced too in multiplayer by give the other teams another random event too.

For reason #2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority: Well, Most of us have friends and even clans to play game with and also this can test our strategy and tactics. It is thru these games that players and fans are bond together towards each other and the game. Of course, the idea of separating the cost of the multiplayer to those single player is a good idea, but doesn't mean it should not have multiplayer.

For reason #3 It would have changed the design priorities: Not at all, the priorities are still there, in fact there only 1 priority. That is to make the game best, fun, playable,...even in single player or multiplayer so as to achieve a sale and make profit. Multiplayer will give it an edge especially long terms wise. A campaign when finished, is not so fun to play again and again. Multiplayer solve that by providing different opponents and improvable tactics from too. Ship designing is fun no doubt but if it is going to be the main fun, I must well play a ship design game after all.

Bottomline: This game need to improve not only single player features and add multiplayer features to be a real success.
Reply #187 Top
no multiplayer is fine, I could never play an entire match in one sitting anyway, and the AI is smarter than me... some tactical combat and bigger fleets would be nice however
Reply #188 Top
What is it with this sacrafice SP stuff.

We have gone over what we care about in previous posts.

In a nut shell we want SP with the ability to LAN, Hotseat, PBEM and IP if posible. Cuttiing anything is not an option.
Reply #189 Top
I couldn't agree more with ForesterGC and God! It's such a shame to have a fantastic game in your hands and not being able to share a great gaming experience with your friends! It's ridiculous to even hold such a long debate about whether the game should or should not have MP capabilities. Fact is that there is a lot of interest from the community for such an option, Fact is that most people would even be willing to pay extra to have such an option, Fact is that the devs themselves said that it wouldn't be to hard to implement such an option, so for crying out loud stop this nonsense about "sacrificing the SP experience". Our requests are based on an entirely different experience that has NOTHING to do with altering IN ANY WAY the SP one.    
Reply #190 Top
Greetings:


It is reassuring to see so many future multi-players joining our ongoing conversation on this topic. It is to be hoped that we get word from the developers of a release date for the multiplayer component.


Forester GC:


I believe that by now you have noticed that, as a rule with few exceptions, Single Player forum members either do not read, do not understand or do not care to understand Pro-Multiplayer posts. The idea of "cutting something" from the game is absurd because:


A- It is already out


B- The developers themselves stated that it had been designed with Multiplayer in mind, so as to be ready to implement such an option with ease. Whoever states that adding MP substracts from SP should have a little more faith in the developers' abilities!


The developers are willing and able to complete the game's options. We need a date so we can stop looking elsewhere for new-old games to enjoy and start concentrating on this very promising new offering.


Thank you for the time taken in reading this post.
Reply #191 Top
Although I personally don't have any problem with people who want an MP expansion, I would point out that those who do are not entirely unjustified.

Stardock is a small company with limited resources, in terms of time and people, and therefore I would guess that resources spent on MP stuff likely means less resources available for new SP stuff.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #192 Top
Stardock is a small company with limited resources, in terms of time and people, and therefore I would guess that resources spent on MP stuff likely means less resources available for new SP stuff.

Peace & Luv, Liz


Yes, interesting analysis. Lifetime of Stardock Devs is surely limited. They wont live forever! Thats for sure! I read your interesting analysis here now roundabout the 25th time on this galciv2 board. I got it now. FYI: I heard there are also other areas where Stardock develops further projects.

Reading your post I came to following conclusion:
Stardock is a small company with limited resources, in terms of time and people, and therefore I would guess that resources spent on WinCustomize stuff likely means less resources available for new GalCiv singleplayer stuff.

Mebbe you should post it here Link in every thread?

Reply #193 Top

Yes, interesting analysis. Lifetime of Stardock Devs is surely limited. They wont live forever! Thats for sure! I read your interesting analysis here now roundabout the 25th time on this galciv2 board. I got it now. FYI: I heard there are also other areas where Stardock develops further projects.

Reading your post I came to following conclusion:
Stardock is a small company with limited resources, in terms of time and people, and therefore I would guess that resources spent on WinCustomize stuff likely means less resources available for new GalCiv singleplayer stuff.

Mebbe you should post it here Link in every thread?



What? Might I suggest trying this post again, and this time, try to have it make sense.

Or better yet, forget about it.

Like geeze, this thread has gone on for pages and accomplished nothing. Let it go.
Reply #194 Top
If the AI behaved intelligently a strategy game could get by fine without multiplayer. However, every single player strategy game I have ever played suffers from the same AI problems. The AIs cannot react intelligently to your actions the way real people can (well, some people).
For example:
1) Computers have no concept of territorial claims, and thus can provoke war by grabbing something from a strong player that a human would know not to.
2) Computers don't catch on to when a player is dangerous and team up to fight them.
3) It is pointless to make alliances or even have friendly relationships with computers as they rarely are of any help and only get in the way. Plus an enemy can turn themselves over to your friends (where a human would either no accept such a gift or would immediately turn it over to the one who was fighting for it, or if they kept the planets it would be with the understanding they would probably be at war with the player who was fighting for those worlds).

Because of the poor nature of diplomacy in strategy games when dealing with the computers it takes away a lot of the drive to do any diplomacy at all. Just look at the dynamics that develop in a game or Stars! or Civ IV when played multiplayer rather than single player.

I find the interaction between players in a turn-based strategy game to be much more rewarding than in any RTS
(in those games the rapid action leaves little time for complex diplomacy and planning).

Much as I like the GalCiv series I have to keep most of my game playing in other games with more rewarding player interaction. Which is a same since I love empire building games (hence Stars! being my all time favorite game for the realistic sized fleets (something else I wish they would improve in GalCiv) and large galaxies).
Reply #195 Top
Here's the sum of the whole matter. I did not buy Gal Civ I because it had no multiplayer. I was going to purchase Gal Civ II because I thought it had it. But if it won't, I will not buy it. It's that simple. Winning against the computer is not the same as wining against another person.

I am a software developer too. I appreciate the challenges involved. But my way of dealing with these is to meet these challenges rather that slink back into my shell and loose probably half of my potential customers.

Just a though.
Reply #196 Top
May I also point out that polling Gal Civ I owners about multiplayer is probably unproductive since they were obviously willing to settle for no multiplayer already?
Reply #197 Top
I was going to ignore this thread as a waste of time, but this asinine post was too much to pass on.


I am a software developer too. I appreciate the challenges involved. But my way of dealing with these is to meet these challenges rather that slink back into my shell


That is a very cheap shot. Not to mention complete crap.



and loose probably half of my potential customers.


HALF?

HALF!?

What planet are you from?

This is a bloody TBS Space Conquest game. The sales they have got are a miracle. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if it had MP they would double?

Not freakin' likely. I bet if it had MP the sales increase would be barely noticeable.

The vast majority of MP players are running around in MMOs, or FPS, or RTS. Sure you've got Civ IV, but are the numbers really that significant? Not to mention that is freakin' Civilization, which automatically puts it in a larger niche than this game.

Stardock is presently working on a major enhancement to this game, with some really great features. I am glad they are not wasting their time working on MP for probably less than 5% of their customer base (probably a lot less), because if they were, they wouldn't be making this great enhancement for ALL of the players of this game.

Look, if some of you are in such a tither over MP, go get Space Empires IV. its AI is dumber than dirt, so it has to be played MP to be even vaguely interesting. But this game is SP, and likely will be for some time. Stardock MIGHT release MP at some point if for no other reason than to get you whiners to shut the hell up. But until then they are going to be working on improving the game for the large number of people who have bought it, not for the debatable number of people who might buy it if Stardock adds MP.
Reply #198 Top
The post is quite relavent. The fact that only a small portion of the base wants multiplayer is merely reflective of the fact that Gal Civ 's base is limited to those happy with the single player only.

It's not a cheap shot. If you're going to release a game like this multiplayer should be a part of it. I understand that this could reek havic on the software architecture... especially if it was designed from the ground up without this in mind, but I really don't think it's a polished final product with out it.

Why should we only be able to compete with other human players in shaloow frantic RTS games?

And by the way, in sales it is always desireable to pursue additional cutsomers. Short-sitedness of this nature should be avoided.
Reply #199 Top
It's not a cheap shot. If you're going to release a game like this multiplayer should be a part of it. I understand that this could reek havoc on the software architecture... especially if it was designed from the ground up without this in mind, but I really don't think it's a polished final product with out it.


Well, of course you feel it's incomplete, because it's lacking a feature you personally care about. Of course, people who don't play MP don't think it's incomplete.

And by the way, in sales it is always desirable to pursue additional customers. Short-sightedness of this nature should be avoided.


As someone who's worked in sales, I feel it's you who is being somewhat short-sighted.

Pursuing additional customers is only desirable *if* the benefits gained from those additional customers offset the resources spent to acquire those additional customers. Generally this involves questions of income/expenses, but there are obviously other possible factors.

Whether that's true here or not I don't know, but it's not a cut-and-dry equation. Of course, I'll be gracious and assume I'm telling you things you already know.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #200 Top
Now I am more than a strong supporter for the idea that MP is way overrated and over-demanded. I am quite disheartened by the fact that most games now of late almost have to have both multiplayer and online capabilities to be considered decent. I believe this is not where games should be going. Yes, games against AI can’t compete with PVP games, but oftentimes a game stressing a MP experience will then opt to simply make the other people in the game supply the fun instead of the game itself. As I see it the demand and insistence that all games have a multiplayer aspect to it will one day (if not already) make it so that the only difference between two supposedly different games is the interface and the graphics, nothing more. MP is not the end all of games. In fact the drive to streamline the MP for MoO III might have been one of the reasons it did so poorly. To me stressing MP for all games, particularly TBS is just the same as how most games and movies stress making the graphics/special effects instead of actually making the quality of the product good without them. After all, people still play MoO II and other older games. The graphics can’t compete with games today, so why play them unless something other than the graphics are what made that game famous. But still people stress that new games must have really good graphics or it’s not that good a game. Same with MP. Yes it adds to the game but stressing it over the single player is not going to make a bad game good.

Would a MP option be nice? Of course, but only after the rest of the game is completed. I’m all for MP but again I want the game itself to be finished and well made before MP is even considered. In fact I think one thing that would be nice would be to take some of the top players and have them play a PBEM like game hosted on a server and have the ability for people to go and observe what every one of the people are doing. A MP like this could follow a similar setup to the place I play Online Chess, which is you have X amount of time to make a move (hours, days, whatever the people playing decide) and you can play several games at the same time without much work. There would still be the problem of dealing with those who quit when the goings get tough but that can be fixed by installing a rating system to the MP and having anyone that quits take a rating hit. Won’t stop all but it would help.

Or how about this for an alternative to a MP option: Adaptive/Learning AI. Instead of sacrificing things to play against another player, why not the ability that the strategies used by the people playing the game will be recorded and have the AI pick and use these strategies in gameplay as well. That way even though you are not actually playing against another person, you would in effect be playing against the next best thing, an AI that mimics the strategies of people who are at that difficulty level. Granted this will be difficult at best to implement and even with it would probably take a few tries to be effective.

Over all I’m tired of the way many people are like “This is what is expected in a game so any game that doesn’t have it isn’t as good.” We the gamers are what determine what makes a good game, not the people who make a game. So to compare a game by what other games are doing is not only pointless by stupid. After all, isn’t it the games that do something to set them apart from the other games that make it a classic and not by it staying in the pack? My 2 cents anyways.