What's wrong with prayer? Being in touch with the commander of the universe can be a very good thing. How's the saying go....don't let God be your last resort but your first response. I know for a fact that prayer works. It's awesome!! We have not cuz we ask not.

I don't want to spend my time talking to something that doesn't exist. And I'm not going to be forced to pray to a god that doesn't exist, the same as how you wouldn't like it if I followed you around 24/7 and didn't let you pray.

That's what's wrong with prayer.

If the Christian's are supporting a war it has to be justified which usually means sancity of life is involved and must be defended.

A war with the sanctity of life?

How can...

Sanct...

Comic relief at its finest.

That's why the same Christians who are pro life believe in Capitol Punishment in certain cases. To put a murderer to death protects the innocent and saves other lives. It all comes down to protecting life. Pure and simple. What I don't understand is the other side who are so quick to kill the babies and let the murderers live. Now what's up with that?

But to put a murderer behind bars also protect the innocent and saves other lives. Plus one more.

And to kill an innocent person destroys lives. We can not say our justice system is perfect. Think Rubin Carter, David Milgaard, Randall Dale Adams (he actually was days away from getting executed), etc.

So who's trying to force you to pray? Can't be done. So you're safe there.

So you say God doesn't exist cuz.......you say so? Well that's pretty reliable. What if you're wrong? Have you ever been wrong before? I see you in a lose-lose situation here. If you are right and I am wrong, I still lose nothing. I've lived my life and kept God's word and tried to be like Him. Lived a peaceful and joyful life. So after that I take a long dirt nap. Now if you are wrong and I am right. You just lost everything. You've lost your chance to live for eternity. See life is short but eternity is a long, long, long, time. So if I were you, I'd spend some time checking the facts. At least while you still have time. I'm in a win-win situation and I have no doubts that there is a God. The evidence is there.

PacDragon said:

"The record seems pretty clear that human components alone don't get the job done."

Perhaps, but the record doesn't show that non- or super-human components would do a better job. Sounds similar to saying, "History has not shown that humans are capable of intergalactic travel. Hence, magic is the answer."

Your analogy would make a lot more sense if there was any reason to believe that mankind's morality problem was a technological problem. As it stands, technological advances seem to introduce new moral questions, instead of resolving the old ones.

Anyway secular humanism assumes that morally, man is already complete: we have innately everything we need to be perfect moral beings. Are you proposing that we simply lack the technology to "do the right thing"? That there's a moral equivalent to Fire, the Wheel, and the Warp Drive, and that once our smarty men invent it, our moral troubles will be over?

Because I love them, here's a little dialogue.

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STUTEFISH: If man is self-perfectible, why hasn't he perfected himself yet?

PACDRAGON: Because he lacks the technology.

STUTEFISH: Since when does technology solve metaphysical problems?

So you say God doesn't exist cuz.......you say so? Well that's pretty reliable. What if you're wrong? Have you ever been wrong before? I see you in a lose-lose situation here. If you are right and I am wrong, I still lose nothing. I've lived my life and kept God's word and tried to be like Him. Lived a peaceful and joyful life. So after that I take a long dirt nap. Now if you are wrong and I am right. You just lost everything. You've lost your chance to live for eternity. See life is short but eternity is a long, long, long, time. So if I were you, I'd spend some time checking the facts. At least while you still have time. I'm in a win-win situation and I have no doubts that there is a God. The evidence is there.

Are you trying to use Pascal's wager to tell me that I am a fool to not believe in god?

First you assume the odds that god exists are greater than zero. That's not exactly a great assumption to start out with when talking to a strong atheist.

also, you do not lose nothing per se if you spend your life going to church and being devout. That takes time, and if we do not live forever, time is a commodity that is one we do not have a lot of. Therefore it is like playing the lottery. I don't play the lottery cause I know I won't win. But I'm still ahead of all the losers.

If I am wrong (which is a massive if), there still are problems to this:

What if we are both wrong? What if we get up there and some other religion was the "correct" one? Then we're both screwed.

If I am wrong, but live a good life trying to be a good person, am I still punished? Or, realizing that I am wrong, can I be rewarded for being a good person?

What if god just hates smartasses who change their religion in order too maximize their odds of gaining eternal life?

latour, I take it you're a strong atheist.

What would be the correct assumption to start out with, when talking to a strong atheist? Why is " the odds that god exists are greater than zero" such a bad assumption to make, when talking to a strong atheist?

Is it because strong atheists have special access to the true probability of god's existence? Or is it because strong atheists become unhappy when confronted with reasonable assumptions they 're not prepared to accept?

In any case, what's your assumption about the probability of God's existence, and upon what is that assumption based?

Well I haveta say the probablility is much larger that God does exist than doesn't. Latour your assumption is that it's religion that we believe brings us to heaven. But I don't believe it has anything to do with religion at all although I haveta admit many do and are being deceived.

It's about having a relationship. Knowing who God is. I don't just let anyone into my house and neither will God. A relationship has to be there in the first place regardless of religion affiliation. And as far as being a good person.....how good is good enough? It has nothing to do with being good at all. It's not about what YOU are but about WHO you know. We are influenced by our associations so the good is a result of WHO we hang around with. I'm only Good cuz I'm kickin with Christ. He said himself....."there is none good, not even one." And he also said...."A fool says in his heart, there is no God."

Oh and by the way.....there really is no such thing as an atheist. An atheist says, there is no God with certainty and an agnostic says they don't belive there is a God. Do you know all there is to know about everything? Are you all knowing? You're better off calling yourself an agnostic.

If anyone says prayer in school is the answer to all of society's problems, I will go absolutely nuts.

You may as well start going nuts, because lots of people really do believe this.

An atheist says, there is no God with certainty and an agnostic says they don't belive there is a God. Do you know all there is to know about everything? Are you all knowing? You're better off calling yourself an agnostic

by the same token there's no such thing as a theist.

me...i'm a jehovah's agnostic. we go door to door and wake people up at the crack of dawn on weekends to give them the good news: one day while singing 'all along the watchtower' we mighta seen something but we don't know what it was.

Oh and by the way.....there really is no such thing as an atheist. An atheist says, there is no God with certainty and an agnostic says they don't belive there is a God. Do you know all there is to know about everything? Are you all knowing? You're better off calling yourself an agnostic

by the same token there's no such thing as a theist.

I guess me and KFC agree on the non-existance of a long list of gods (Thor, Zeus, Krishna, the invisible pink unicorn), just can't seem to agree on one.

Latour your assumption is that it's religion that we believe brings us to heaven.

I believe that was your assumption, that belief in god and having a relationship with him/her/it/them (some sort of religion) is the ticket to heaven, and those who don't believe (atheists) are not going to be rewarded.

I don't just let anyone into my house and neither will God.

So an all knowing being doesn't know me well enough? interesting...

STUTEFISH: If man is self-perfectible, why hasn't he perfected himself yet?
PACDRAGON: Because he lacks the technology.
STUTEFISH: Since when does technology solve metaphysical problems?

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Heh, well at least I'm not the only one who believes technology is the answer. One of the advances you learn in Alpha Centauri, the futuristic version of Civilization 2, is Ethical Calculus

But seriously, what I meant was that there could potentially be a mode of behaviour, similar to what Secular Humanism or Christianity try to accomplish (mankind doing the right thing almost all the time), that would actually work. I believe such a thing is possible and could be done by humans & without religion. What it actually is, I have no idea, so for the time being I just listen to that inner voice that tells me not to kill people.

You make sense, PD. But wouldn't any technology that makes sure we always do what our conscience tells us to do cancel out free will?

Anyway, the theme of my article might be expressed like this:

Christianity tells us that we already know right from wrong, what the origin of right and wrong is, that we are free to choose between the two, that we are unable to always choose right over wrong, and that there is a solution to this problem.

My question is, what does "Secular" Humanism have to say on these subjects?

latour said, "So an all knowing being doesn't know me well enough? interesting..."

It's not like that at all. Rather, the "all-knowing being" knows you very well indeed. For example, It knows that you have chosen not to commune with it. It also knows that without this communion, you will be eternally incomplete and unable to realize your full potential as a chosen companion of God. But Its rule is this: If you choose to forgo the communion, It will respect your choice, and allow you to follow the path of incompleteness and failure.

Would you rather the Almighty forced you to love and obey It, against your will? Or perhaps you'd rather be a beast, totally lacking in free will, and bound by blind instinct to Its plan, without ever knowing the freedom of choice?

Fish-man wrote: "But wouldn't any technology that makes sure we always do what our conscience tells us to do cancel out free will?"

Not technology, as in microchips that force behavior. But more like human-produced philosophies that offer an easy to understand and easy to follow mode of behaviour. Perhaps heralded via an effective and non-annoying media campaign to embed the meme into a majority of the popopulus.

I think what secular humansim is trying to say on the subject is that humans know right from wrong. Some choose to willfully ignore it, or have mental disorders that prevent it, so we should have institutions available for those situations. But that religion is not necessary for a Lawful Good society, the capability is within us.

Although one could say that my futuristic ethical calculus meme is simply a religion under a different name (and the same could possibly be said for secular humanism) and then I would have to concede the point. But I don't think these philosophies have to be divine-based to produce a good-aligned society.

By the way, I just watched Spiderman 2 again. Now that would be a great vehicle for spreading this new meme

way to go Stutefish....my thoughts exactly. That's why he's a just God....that way no one on the other side of eternity (at the judgment) can cry....no fair.......it was a choice you made.....like I said I'm in a win-win situation.....but it's more than that....it's freedom. We're either a slave to Satan or a servant of Christ's....the only difference is....Christ sets us free.......

Kingbee said....."by the same token there's no such thing as a theist."

That's not true.....we have physical evidence.....what evidence do you have against a deity?


You may want to check, the historical, prophetical, archaelogical, and scientific evidence. Oh and also the eyewittness account of the resurrection. Not only by the gospel writers but also by the non Christian Jewish writers of the first century as well.