OctateZero OctateZero

December Vault Discussion

December Vault Discussion

It's a fantastic look into the mundane workings of a development team — I really appreciate the transparency and learned a lot. Thanks to everyone involved.

Initial feedback:

On the number of world types, I see the issues in play. For "even-ness," though, I'd suggest starting with seven types—two easy, two medium, two hard, and rainbow. The current "one medium type" list seems odd.

"Super Melee should stay Super Melee." It's good to hear about the process your team has gone through to reach this decision, and I'm glad you ended up where you did.

I like the model of ship customization you're pursuing. Here's a few to throw in the blender:

 - Flock of Spacegulls: a cloud of sensor decoys you can leave behind while running… far away.
 - a trio of docked escort fighters that can be launched for close defense.
 - treatment plant that converts crew waste to energy. Produces less as crew dies off.
 - solar panel for trickle recharging when in a system (hat tip to the Escape Velocity series).

601,511 views 197 replies
Reply #101 Top

My two cents...

PLANET EXPLORATION

Planet Types Critique


Six types is too low.

 

Planet Types Suggestion


Please re-skin, re-classify, and populate resources/biologicals in a sporadic manner like in SC2. They could be the same looking planet but both have entirely different resources and planet names. This gives the impression of more variety. I'd love to have a "forest" or "earth-like" planet type.


World Editor Tool


Fantastic idea. Good direction on not wanting them to be all randomly generated. That personal touch goes a long way.


Memory Consumption and Time Suggestion


If it becomes too much, I'm fine with a return to how SC2 handled planetary exploration with flat surfaces but with an updated feel. I would actually prefer that. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel especially if its going to cost in the long run.

 

Overall, I like what I see. Keep up the good and hard work; it's highly appreciated.

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Reply #102 Top

Going to chime in here with some FACTS for you guys. Right now there are:

52 planet types (same as Star Control 2). Those 52 planet types utilize the 6 biomes that are listed in the December Update. What you are going to see if different types of planets that have different levels of gameplay effects on each of them. Some may have more critters, some may have none. Some will have raging storms and volcanos that will make navigating a challenge and you will find some sterile planets as well.  

Planets right now will not repopulate their resources or critters (sorry guys I couldn't resist trolling earlier). The primary reason for this is exactly what was mentioned in an earlier post. It leaves things up for exploitation. 

Can you run out of fuel and get stranded and die? The answer to this is a bit more complicated. Yes you can get stranded by running out of fuel, but this doesn't mean that it's game over and you are dead. Help will be on the way (not saying from who) but you will need to survive till it arrives, which means that depending on where you ran out of fuel your Super Melee battle skills better be up to par. There are also some additional ways that will be available to help prevent this but not going to spoil those surprises right now. 

I know everyone is chomping at the bit to see the full list of 52, however i'm in the midst of doing some of the initial game balancing right now with regards to those so there is nothing that is ready for feedback on it yet. 

I'll see about getting some more information about the planet gameplay details in a future founder's update. 

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Reply #103 Top

^ Andrew, please, understand, I, personally, just wanna see the process itself. The evolution of your design team ideas, their implementation and its progress or regress. I swear on the grave of my neighbor's cat to not give feedback on such information. Or better, if you took 5 minutes of your time once in 2 weeks and just make a thread here with couple of WIP pics (it can be anything, just not 320x240 bmp) and not read it to not waste your time, 'cause we sure as hex will be mulling over it for our own satisfaction, THAT would be ideal for the Founders here who want to see how the sausage is made. I promise not to hold SD accountable for any of those images. You can even pin it, so only dedicated ones "have access" to it. Thank you in advance.

Reply #104 Top

Thank God for Vaelzad! Thats all we needed, my friend. 

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Reply #105 Top

Quoting Vaelzad, reply 102

Going to chime in here with some FACTS for you guys. Right now there are:

52 planet types (same as Star Control 2). Those 52 planet types utilize the 6 biomes that are listed in the December Update. What you are going to see if different types of planets that have different levels of gameplay effects on each of them. Some may have more critters, some may have none. Some will have raging storms and volcanos that will make navigating a challenge and you will find some sterile planets as well.  

Planets right now will not repopulate their resources or critters (sorry guys I couldn't resist trolling earlier). The primary reason for this is exactly what was mentioned in an earlier post. It leaves things up for exploitation. 

Can you run out of fuel and get stranded and die? The answer to this is a bit more complicated. Yes you can get stranded by running out of fuel, but this doesn't mean that it's game over and you are dead. Help will be on the way (not saying from who) but you will need to survive till it arrives, which means that depending on where you ran out of fuel your Super Melee battle skills better be up to par. There are also some additional ways that will be available to help prevent this but not going to spoil those surprises right now. 

I know everyone is chomping at the bit to see the full list of 52, however i'm in the midst of doing some of the initial game balancing right now with regards to those so there is nothing that is ready for feedback on it yet. 

I'll see about getting some more information about the planet gameplay details in a future founder's update. 

Wonderful, it is fantastic to hear this, and it probably helps calm the mood of this forum bickering over planet diversity.

And while I may disagree with the stance on resource regeneration, I am willing to withhold my judgement until A. There is more information on planet exploration and the game's length or B. I get my hands on a planet exploration demo.

Either way, thank you for the update.

Reply #106 Top

Quoting The_Think_Tank, reply 105

And while I may disagree with the stance on resource regeneration, I am willing to withhold my judgement until A. There is more information on planet exploration and the game's length or B. I get my hands on a planet exploration demo.

I'm all for having a design discussion on this if you disagree.  The reason as to the why for this is as follows. 

If a player can visit the same planet over and over again it creates a negative reinforcement loop for the individual. 

First, the player will have access to a static known resource location that they can continually mine. They want the fastest reward with the least amount of work. This is just an aspect of human nature that exists and could spawn it's own psychology gameplay discussion. (I actually give a talk at a schools about how this effects game design and gameplay) but I digress. While this sounds great from the player's end of things it's pretty harmful to the game and the game's core game loop.

 As an example, let's say the player finds a planet that has a good enough amount of resources for them to work with. Whenever they need resources they are just going to keep going back to this planet to get them. This hurts the motivation game loop for exploration. The compulsion game loop is visit system > search planet > find nothing of worth (negative reward - because they can get all they need from their mining planet), rinse and repeat till the player finds something. They are performing the action that they are supposed to be doing but they are getting a negative reinforcement for it because they haven't found anything. Now their exploration feels like searching for a needle in a haystack for where the game may have hidden a story location.  The core of their searching ultimately leads to more negative rewards than positive rewards, with that much negative reinforcement the player starts to think they are doing something wrong. 

That type exploration without purpose for the vast majority of people isn't very fun. But if the player has a goal, they are looking for more resources because they know they need them to accomplish X, they are exploring with purpose. Now for an example with resources being finite at a location. The player has the same need as above, they need resources. However they now know they can't visit the same place more than once because they learned that when they visited a planet that they have already mined once that it's empty. Now the need and desire to explore new areas is strong, the player needs resources and has a reason to go someplace they haven't been before.  The player's compulsion loop changes to  visit system > search planet > get resources (positive reward). Now regardless of the amount of resources the player gets, the player got a positive reward because the access to resources is finite. The player needed the resources because they know they aren't everywhere. Each time the player explores they are given a positive reward for their efforts not a negative one. Their goal is to get resources, but during the course of meeting that goal they might discover something cool along the way. 

 

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Reply #107 Top

Are the screenshots of the ships being viewed from the same distance? My initial concern when seeing the ships is their apparent sizes in comparison to each other. There are a couple that are clearly built to feel smaller, but the large majority feel pretty similar in size. Some of that may come down to the kind of squat, cartoony art style or because the ships may be scaled to fit the same space on the screen. 

Percieved size is also affected by viewing angle. I'm assuming that the combat will play with the same simple turn, thrust, fire, and special buttons that SC2 had. Has it been decided what kind of camera angle will be used for super melee/combat? Star Control 3's strange 2D combat in 3D was often pretty frustrating and janky, although to say that it was all because of camera angle would be far from true. If the camera IS going to be directly overhead, some of the ships are not going to be very easily recognized or distinguished.

I also don't see anything that speaks evil or power to me. Kohr-Ah ships looked terrifying and powerful and stuck out in my memory strongly enough that I went looking for that old game I used to play and fell in love with SC2 all over again as an adult. It may be (and likely is) that I just need to see some full size images or see things in-game to get a better feel for scale, style, and diversity, but those are my initial impressions. Sorry if this post sounds negative, overall I'm very intrigued and excited to see it all in action!

Reply #108 Top

Quoting Vaelzad, reply 106


Quoting The_Think_Tank,

And while I may disagree with the stance on resource regeneration, I am willing to withhold my judgement until A. There is more information on planet exploration and the game's length or B. I get my hands on a planet exploration demo.



I'm all for having a design discussion on this if you disagree.  The reason as to the why for this is as follows. 

If a player can visit the same planet over and over again it creates a negative reinforcement loop for the individual. 

First, the player will have access to a static known resource location that they can continually mine. They want the fastest reward with the least amount of work. This is just an aspect of human nature that exists and could spawn it's own psychology gameplay discussion. (I actually give a talk at a schools about how this effects game design and gameplay) but I digress. While this sounds great from the player's end of things it's pretty harmful to the game and the game's core game loop.

 As an example, let's say the player finds a planet that has a good enough amount of resources for them to work with. Whenever they need resources they are just going to keep going back to this planet to get them. This hurts the motivation game loop for exploration. The compulsion game loop is visit system > search planet > find nothing of worth (negative reward - because they can get all they need from their mining planet), rinse and repeat till the player finds something. They are performing the action that they are supposed to be doing but they are getting a negative reinforcement for it because they haven't found anything. Now their exploration feels like searching for a needle in a haystack for where the game may have hidden a story location.  The core of their searching ultimately leads to more negative rewards than positive rewards, with that much negative reinforcement the player starts to think they are doing something wrong. 

That type exploration without purpose for the vast majority of people isn't very fun. But if the player has a goal, they are looking for more resources because they know they need them to accomplish X, they are exploring with purpose. Now for an example with resources being finite at a location. The player has the same need as above, they need resources. However they now know they can't visit the same place more than once because they learned that when they visited a planet that they have already mined once that it's empty. Now the need and desire to explore new areas is strong, the player needs resources and has a reason to go someplace they haven't been before.  The player's compulsion loop changes to  visit system > search planet > get resources (positive reward). Now regardless of the amount of resources the player gets, the player got a positive reward because the access to resources is finite. The player needed the resources because they know they aren't everywhere. Each time the player explores they are given a positive reward for their efforts not a negative one. Their goal is to get resources, but during the course of meeting that goal they might discover something cool along the way. 

 

The way that I was trying to spin resource regeneration was that it would take place over a very, very long period of time. My intention with such a change would be the ease of late-game mining if you were able to re-visit and re-harvest previously visited planets, as otherwise my fear is that you would start to experience a dilemma such as that seen in SC II where nearing the end of the game it becomes difficult to find a planet with any valuable resources remaining, and so it becomes a very expensive and tedious trip back and forth trying to find a planet worthy of exploration and that hasn't been mined already.

Exploration would still be a major incentive in the same way, as planet resources would not be spawning once every month or so, the rate of replenishment I was more considering was once every average game (or about ~4 years in game time). The end result of this would make it impossible to camp a sector, or even a section of the galaxy and farm it for resources, and it would give a greater push for exploration. What it would do is that after most, if not all, of the map is explored, and the player is simply mining for resource and not exploration sake (although I do think it would be interesting to have some late-game discoveries triggered by a due date, so the player still has an incentive to explore late in the game), then I believe resource regeneration during this time would mitigate the long and exhausting grind for new and expensive technology (which, in SC II resulted in me sometimes just grinding enemy ships until I could buy new kit, which wasn't exactly very fun).

I agree 100% that resource regeneration should not be a normal occurrence, since that would essentially kill all benefit of exploring, but I also think that the late-game player should not be punished by a lack of resources in the late game (especially when it is needed there the most). If, say, such long-term resource regeneration was implemented in tandem with a dynamic world, one that is impacted and changed by your actions (including, and especially areas that you previously visited) I think it would be refreshing and entertaining to re-visit these areas in the late-game instead of having to fly over to some corner of the universe to find a specific resource. Not to mention that if these worlds, or at least, terrain/biome, interactivity and possible alien populace would change within these visited planets over the course of your actions I think it would be quite enjoyable to visit these places once more, and to observe how they have changed over the course of the game, not only drastically increasing the perceived size of the game (all the while it remains the exact same dimensions physically) but it would also be an engaging way to collect end-game resources.

 

I wasn't able to put my thoughts into all I wanted to say, but that is the gist of it. If I remember something more I will be sure to share it if I believe it to be of any worthy contribution to this discussion.

Reply #109 Top

I am definitely against resource regeneration.

Now if there was a tech that allowed deeper exploitation of already discovered planets, I would be fine with that. A very late game tech for those people that love to keep playing long after the game is essentially over. Or you could get access to techs that allow gas giant or sun harvesting for unlimited fuel to keep exploration from becoming a chore late game when you are ready to just finish the game.

I really don't see this as an issue as it was never an issue for SC2. Of course I also never knew that the game ends after 5 years if you don't beat it. I never played it for that long. I always beat the game in the second year.

I can't leave anything behind. When Fallout 4 regens a dungeon I have to fight my OCD compulsion to receollect everything instead of focusing on the mission.

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Reply #110 Top

^ I hated it in F4. Still playing on survival though... OCD is a beatch. :D

Quoting The_Think_Tank, reply 108

The way that I was trying to spin resource regeneration...

 

It's been revealed that the SCO campaign length is comparable to SC2. Which is 35 minutes (8+ months of game time) on the speed run. It would be easier to just tweak resource spawn quantities than implement the whole regen mechanic.

Reply #111 Top

Quoting Khronobomb, reply 109

I am definitely against resource regeneration.

Now if there was a tech that allowed deeper exploitation of already discovered planets, I would be fine with that. A very late game tech for those people that love to keep playing long after the game is essentially over. Or you could get access to techs that allow gas giant or sun harvesting for unlimited fuel to keep exploration from becoming a chore late game when you are ready to just finish the game.

I really don't see this as an issue as it was never an issue for SC2. Of course I also never knew that the game ends after 5 years if you don't beat it. I never played it for that long. I always beat the game in the second year.

I can't leave anything behind. When Fallout 4 regens a dungeon I have to fight my OCD compulsion to receollect everything instead of focusing on the mission.

Actually, that too is a very good idea. And it would also bring in the realism side of the argument, while also letting the player know when he can re-mine these planets.

I would shift my argument to yours with the dynamic world as a preferable addition on top. But other than that, I think this would be the ideal solution.

 

Quoting Hunam_, reply 110

^ I hated it in F4. Still playing on survival though... OCD is a beatch. :D


Quoting The_Think_Tank,

The way that I was trying to spin resource regeneration...



 

It's been revealed that the SCO campaign length is comparable to SC2. Which is 35 minutes (8+ months of game time) on the speed run. It would be easier to just tweak resource spawn quantities than implement the whole regen mechanic.

What do you mean by spawn quantities, exactly? From the sounds of it such quantities would roughly be the same idea.

Reply #112 Top

^ Larger quantities can be spawned to eliminate the "grind" and the need for constant resource gathering. There should be a magic number where resource gathering isn't 50% of your play time.

Does anyone remember this? You can "upgrade" your Magellan bridge with any alien one. Dope!

 

So, Famished ones have vampire missiles...

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Reply #113 Top

FWIW, I hope that resources are so tight that you have to explore most of the worlds in order to afford all of the upgrades.

 

Reply #114 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 112

So, Famished ones have vampire missiles...

Good find.

Who had the defensive shield? That wasn't an ability of any of the ships listed.

Reply #115 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 113

FWIW, I hope that resources are so tight that you have to explore most of the worlds in order to afford all of the upgrades.

 

 

All of the upgrades sure, but you should be able to upgrade your ship to a good level without being forced to go on a IBNobody style strip-mining adventure.  Getting everything and being massively OP should require a lot of work.  Or cheesing it like in SC2 (fly straight to Alpha Centauri, grab the exotics and meet the Melnorme, speed to the Arilou for the portal spawner and then use that to grab rainbow worlds and sell the info back to the Melnorme. Never worry about resources again).

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Reply #116 Top

Quoting Alverez, reply 115

All of the upgrades sure, but you should be able to upgrade your ship to a good level without being forced to go on a IBNobody style strip-mining adventure.  Getting everything and being massively OP should require a lot of work.  Or cheesing it like in SC2 (fly straight to Alpha Centauri, grab the exotics and meet the Melnorme, speed to the Arilou for the portal spawner and then use that to grab rainbow worlds and sell the info back to the Melnorme. Never worry about resources again). 

Yup, exactly. Costs should ramp up steeply.

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Reply #117 Top

I agree that upgrades should be a major investment, but mining all the planets is, in my opinion, what I am so worried about. Having to roam back and forth to find that one last planet that hasn't been mined. Not to mention it kills potential replayability when you are experiencing and mining the exact same planets with no possible way to explore territory you couldn't last game, since in order to upgrade you already visited all the planets in the game.

 

Note to self: Mobile posting is HARD.

Reply #118 Top

Quoting The_Think_Tank, reply 117

I agree that upgrades should be a major investment, but mining all the planets is, in my opinion, what I am so worried about. Having to roam back and forth to find that one last planet that hasn't been mined. Not to mention it kills potential replayability when you are experiencing and mining the exact same planets with no possible way to explore territory you couldn't last game, since in order to upgrade you already visited all the planets in the game.

If the resources are fixed, the game should flag worlds that have been harvested.

I don't care much about replayability when it comes to exploring. If you explore the whole galaxy, you're going to be burnt out anyway. Even with 52 "types" (or a quadrillion "types"). Plus, it will be easy to add more planets via mods.

Reply #119 Top

Maybe ALL the planets is a little over the top, but the point is that upgrading your ship to god-mode should be a major time investment.

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Reply #120 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 114


Quoting Hunam_,

So, Famished ones have vampire missiles...



Good find.

Who had the defensive shield? That wasn't an ability of any of the ships listed.

 

The c0ckpit is Trandal's. Maybe that pic info is outdated.

I wish that Jeff gi-hugic 3 piece ship with a plasma core was a race ship, but it looks like it's one of a kind.

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Reply #121 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 120

The c0ckpit is Trandal's. Maybe that pic info is outdated.

I wish that Jeff gi-hugic 3 piece ship with a plasma core was a race ship, but it looks like it's one of a kind.

Hijacking it should be an allowable option.

Reply #122 Top

I like the commitment to modding - but in spite of a lot of different things customizable, nothing up to now suggests that original abilities are possible; just reskinning existing ones by fiddling with template values.

There is room for modding different colors and flavor text and original stories. There is a much larger room for modding new abilities. Imagine SuperMelee with 100 ships that are all variations of the same 20 base ships; vs 100 ships that are truly original.

 

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Reply #123 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 113

FWIW, I hope that resources are so tight that you have to explore most of the worlds in order to afford all of the upgrades.

 

If you need to mine a whole galactic arm to upgrade one ship, it should be the size of a Dyson sphere by the time you are done.

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Reply #124 Top

Quoting Alverez, reply 119

Maybe ALL the planets is a little over the top, but the point is that upgrading your ship to god-mode should be a major time investment.

Well, no doubt. I don't think anyone here is asking for a "Instant-Deploy Build-ur-self" Super-carrier, but also mining all planets is way over the top, considering we have 700 SYSTEMS we should be looking at mining 350 systems MAX, and that would be plenty a time investment (roughly the same time investment as SC II, with ~350 out of 500 systems for maxed out insta-gib ship). This would take a reasonable amount of time, while still leaving plenty of planets left over for future exploration or second/third play-through. That was one of the things I loved about SC II was that it was so vast and diverse that it wouldn't get stale even after multiple games, if we extrapolate this into SCO I think it could be very beneficial for the life-span and success of the game (and coupled with mods this game could have years of life ahead of it if properly executed)

Reply #125 Top

Quoting Khronobomb, reply 123

If you need to mine a whole galactic arm to upgrade one ship, it should be the size of a Dyson sphere by the time you are done.

Unless you are using it as currency or are scavenging surface materials...

We're not setting up long-term strip mining operations. We are driving a car over flashing powerups.

Quoting The_Think_Tank, reply 124

Well, no doubt. I don't think anyone here is asking for a "Instant-Deploy Build-ur-self" Super-carrier, but also mining all planets is way over the top, considering we have 700 SYSTEMS we should be looking at mining 350 systems MAX, and that would be plenty a time investment (roughly the same time investment as SC II, with ~350 out of 500 systems for maxed out insta-gib ship). This would take a reasonable amount of time, while still leaving plenty of planets left over for future exploration or second/third play-through. That was one of the things I loved about SC II was that it was so vast and diverse that it wouldn't get stale even after multiple games, if we extrapolate this into SCO I think it could be very beneficial for the life-span and success of the game (and coupled with mods this game could have years of life ahead of it if properly executed)

I disagree with setting the resource requirement count low because that was one of the major problems with SC2. You ran out of incentive to collect resources.

I have had this discussion with Andrew before (back when he was being more social), and he hinted that there would be some sort of resource sink other than fleet maintenance once the player was maxed out or nearly maxed out on tech.