December Vault Discussion

I like the human theme.

I also echo the sentiment that another medium world type is needed, maybe Frozen.

I like the ship designs and can't wait to try them out.

Thanks for showing us how the sausage is made. I really wanted to see that sausage. I generally love sausages. 

Thanks for a more in-depth update. I look forward to more updates like this one.

 

For planets, I agree with having another medium such as an ice world. Please don't have such large ice crystals as in page 11, they extend too far into space. Other than that, the planets are looking much better from the system screen.

 

Star system count looks good to me. I don't want a crazy large number of systems, so 700 would be great.

 

Ships/portraits:

- The earth commander portrait looked like a guy wearing a beret when I first saw it. (Just thought it weird but I know it will change)

- The Trandal ship looked like it was missing a texture. Maybe it has to do with the size of the picture and compression, but the grey looks too flat compared with the white portions of the ship.

- Phamysht portrait doesn't look at all like the ship. I think that there should be a visual correlation with each ship and the respective species.

 

P.S. forgot about the other files that were included. The logo looks great as does the Mukay 3d rig but it does look weird with the 2d backdrop.

The human theme made me think Space Egyptians for some reason but otherwise it doesn't sound bad.

I don't care for the intro music file. This made me think even more of Space Egyptians and as something that would be played when you start the game, I don't see it fitting.

Lastly, the frozen exploration sounds good except for what I hear as digitized electric guitar in it. It occurs half way and three quarters the way through it.

Too bad the planet variation had to be cut down.

Definately something for later addition.

 

Device suggestion.

Phase-O-Tron: Ship goes 'out of phase' and thus becomes invicible to opponent.

This is not the standard gloaking device that just renders ship invicible.
When out of phase, ship cannot be seen, heard or hit with weapons.
Risk of using it would be that ship A (out of phase) cannot see ship B either.

Device stays on for a short time and would then require time to recharge.

 

Nice surprise to see the update a few days early.

I'm sorry to read about all the unanticipated challenges that are delaying progress, and really disappointed to hear that planet styles are being dialed back quite a bit, but it's nice to know that extra time is being taken to address them rather than just rushing towards a deadline that can't be changed. Also really appreciate hearing that you're bringing a dynamic personality to the commander rather than just making her a one note character. It will be a great change of pace to see characters expressing a range of emotions; it's something I think should be expected in 2016. So many space games with alien conversation elements tend to be very cut and dry, with many of the characters you interact with never changing their moods. I will be very pleased if Stardock can deliver on improving this.

I'd like to see some starship modules that appropriate technology from species you encounter. Maybe as you meet other species you might really like their weapons or special abilities and can either negotiate for their tech, or alternately just take it by force. If you defeat them, you have a chance to recover some of their technology and adapt it into a module for your own ship. This way, every player can choose from the kinds of weapons they like rather than having a single linear progression of technology as we did from the Melnorme. I'd like to see that idea available with more than just a single merchant species who provides everything for you.

I'd also be curious whether module miniaturization can be further developed, e.g. the same idea as SC2's extended range fuel tanks and improved batteries that doubled capacity in a single ship slot, but I'd like to see it applied to other disciplines as well, such as miniaturization for thrusters, weapons, crew pods, etc. to provide a scaling factor for other parts of the ship. SC2 really only had one tier of miniaturization in this respect, but maybe we can have three or four tiers of miniaturization this time, to really pack a lot of things into the flagship.

The music samples are appreciated and of decent quality, and yet at the same time I still can't help but feel a little underwhelmed. Many of the themes are very ambient and unintrusive, and while that type of music has its place, I would love to hear some really punchy, intense and memorable music like we heard in SC2. I know fans would love to hear those styles brought into a modern context and take center stage in the gameplay, rather than just blending inconspicuously into the backdrop of the game. Personally I'd love it if the music could be really energetic and just dominate the experience like it used to, although that's just my opinion and maybe I'm out of touch.

Forgive what may seem like a novice level software/tech question, but can you comment on whether the game might ultimately end up being optimized to take advantage of extra memory? The remarks about it utilizing way more than anticipated are almost to be expected at this stage, but I'm not sure how much system memory utilization is considered a lot, versus a standard amount? I think these days 8GB seems like the minimum, 16GB is standard for most gaming, but there are certainly folks out there with 32, 64 or even more in their systems. My question is whether the game will be able to leverage in excess of 32GB to improve performance, or if it will be built around a specific performance envelope to work well for the most people and having lots of memory won't make a significant difference for power users...

Oh my God - there's one incredibly urgent thing that MUST change right away. The 7th planet type. A lush, earth-like world. I don't care what it takes to include this in the base game, this must be included. Trees and rivers and mountain ranges and lakes. Like the Forest world that somehow got cut?!? No, this must exist. Someplace teeming with life, and hospitable. If there's anything we've learned over the last few years of science - it's that habitable blue planets are much, MUCH more common than we'd ever thought before, including one right next door in Proxima Centauri. You guys can't ignore this - it's SCIENCE. Please don't ignore the tantalizing fact that there are many, many, many millions of worlds out there in the habitable zone. And not a SINGLE one of these 6 represents that vast number. 

Even if it's not "lush" because of memory or time - at least make a REGULAR planet! Rocks and some green? A LITTLE flora and a LITTLE fauna? Not every single planet out there is either a barren moon or filled with lava or acid!!!!! There's planets that are NOT MOONS, that have an atmosphere, but also not covered in ice or lava - like Mars or Pluto or whatever - just relatively rocky, regular planets. This needs to be included, as well.

Furthermore, literally, the two most common planets in the universe MUST be "blazing hot" (represented here by volcanic, that's fine) and "completely frozen" (not represented at all!!). I mean, the MOMENT a planet gets a little too far from the sun, it's immediately frozen! Frozen has GOT to be the most common one out there! Every single planet in a solar system, past a certain point, is going to be frozen! I suppose this could be included in the "REGULAR" planet type... just rocks, because not every frozen planet has water to freeze. And frozen rock, without moisture, would just look like regular rock. So this could be included in that group. 

Really, it just makes zero sense (ZERO!) that you're either getting a lava, crystal, acid, or desert world. The middle-ground regular planets MUST be included. Otherwise, you're just going to be landing on acid planets COMMONLY! And how many acid planets are out there, anyway?!?

Here's what I recommend, besides the addition of these 2 planet types (and really, just kick acid right outta there if you need to):

Handle it the way Star Control II did, to lessen the workload - give people the IMPRESSION that there are 30 types of worlds, without changing anything except the ruse. Here's what I mean:

1. That means, don't call it a "crystal world" and the planet is all multi-colored crystals. Instead, make a RUBY world. Same model, same everything, only RED CRYSTALS. Then make a TOPAZ world, with YELLOW crystals. Then make an EMERALD world (SAME ASSETS), with GREEN crystals.
2. And instead of just a rocky world, make it a SANDSTONE world, with light-colored rocks. Then make a dark silver rocky world, with the same exact assets, but call it a BASALT world. LIMESTONE world could be tinged green. Obisidian worlds would have the SAME EXACT assets as the other, just have a black color.
3. As for acid worlds, make a Hydrochloric world, a Nitric world, an Acetic world, a Salicylic world, ETC - all DIFFERENT COLORS! Do you see what I'm saying? 
4. And so on...
5. And so forth...

This would give the impression that you've got a hundred different planet types, that all look unique - but use the same base code. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT STAR CONTROL II DID. There's no shame in it. It'll give us all a little nugget of something to be excited about when we've been finding RUBY worlds and all of a sudden we come across........... SAPPHIRE WORLD?!? OMFG! AMAZING!

And if you need me to, I'll change the color of your textures in Photoshop for you, free of charge. Just don't make there be 6 world types total...

Because, I swear to GOD if I have to land on the same crystal world 1,100 times, I will riot.

Also, who knew the mushroom-world was a rainbow world?! Cool and weird!

Okay, next stop: I want to fuck the person who made the ship-building screen. It looks AWESOME. Snap-on, snap-off modules in an easy, mouse-based user interface? It reminds me of the best parts of Spore. And I don't miss the "completely free-form" ship building at ALL. The ship should be ICONIC. It should have a set design, with modules you can swap out. I love it. I want it. I need this in my life. I don't want a bunch of dongs flying through space. I want the architecture set, but the modules to make the ship my own. 

I will say that I wish y'all somehow made it a precursor ship that you get to pilot. Even if it's not precursor in name - there was some magical about FINDING a ship on an alien planet, severely lacking and underpowered at first, making it my own, learning the controls, and eventually turning it into the galaxy-saving juggernaut it became....... Where'd the Precursor ship come from??? How did we find it??? How do we adapt it to our own goals? WHAT WERE ITS GOALS IN THE FIRST PLACE?! Only that kind of ship could make you feel like you were destined to save the galaxy... uh, but I guess a regular human ship is fine. Just not as majestic and mysterious. Or cool.

The ships:

What the frick is the reasoning behind the Skryve and the Xraki having the same ship model? Is this a juicy nugget about the story? I like the bright, distinctive red of the Skryve. But the rest are kind of blah in the color department. Let's make those colors REALLY pop. As of right now, pretty much all of them are neutral-tone with a highlight color.

• Humans are primarily white ships, with navy highlight. 
• Menk-Mack are primarily white with brown highlight and a tiny green dab. (should be primarily canary yellow)
• Xraki are primarily white, with a slight purple highlight (should be DEEP Indigo with violet highlight)
• Dan'Nath is all grey with like... a little blue or something?
• Trandals is all grey.
• Mowlings is half grey, half orange (passable, but I'd love to see something distinct)
• Greegrox is okay, but dim (and he looks kinda doofy)
• Mukay is primarily white, with some blue highlights (should be sea green and cyan)
• Measured is primarily white and cream (boring)
• Pinthi is unfortunately like a pastel green, when really it should be Umgah ship green!!
• Pham-shit is a very dull white (Should be VERY BRIGHT, blindingly white)
• Drenkend is like junkyard brown with pale yellow (really push the colors here).
• Tywom is dull yellow (should be a cool orange)

See what I mean? I'm very disappointed in this so far. Think about the predecessor:

• Ilwrath was FUCHSIA.
• Kzer-Za was high-lighter green
• Vux was DEEP blue
• Syreen was BRIGHT red
• Arilou was teal
• Umgah was bright green
• Spathi used 5 bright, primary colors

The color scheme, complemented with design, all worked together to cement the Star Control II ships in our minds for ETERNITY. This was also one of the things Stardock SWORE up and down they wouldn't fall into - making every ship look like the disambiguous metal ships so popular is science fiction these days. You guys should look to Subnautica for guidance on how to make a ship REALLY STAND OUT. Don't be nervous. Don't fucking pull your punches. Don't yearn to be part of the pack. Be BOLD. Be fearless. You want to make a ship highlighter pink, YOU FUCKING DO IT.

Y'all have some good, fun designs here. Don't lose it with the color scheme.

Why are people reserving posts?  Is there a limit to the number in a thread now?

 

Great question.

Just being dumb, don't mind us It's just to make sure our incredibly long-winded posts don't get buried in the tide of other posts on here. 

Scroll up and see above, it's not just a reservation anymore

I look forward to really digesting this update. When it comes to memory allocation and loading times, a lot of games have blown this. One of my biggest complaints against SoTS 2 was the loading times for basic screens like empire management. They used a tables based retrieval system that grew throughout the game and would eventually take minutes to load after 200 turns or so.

I am really glad that you are keeping Super Melee true to the original. I still think that your team based 3 vs 3 vision is doable and would will even be enjoyable, but it should be an additional mode and not replace 1 vs 1. Might even be fun to create a planet tag or capture the flag version with your lander, depending on how large the planets end up being and terrain.

I also think you are going in the right direction with the human commander. When you said cosplay, I suddenly had an image of Ladybeard playing this character and now can't get it out of my head. Thanks for that.

All the artwork looks amazing. Hyperspace and the star-map look fantastic.

I really want to breakdown the ships and the race models when I have time this weekend.

 

 

You?  Long-winded? 

I end up missing those posts.  I've read the *reserved* already so when I open the thread it jumps right past.  Probably causes more folks to miss your thoughts and ideas than anything.

But then, how else is everyone gonna know they were here first?

See? Now that we talked about it, not only does everyone know we were here day-of, but they have all these posts referring to our previous, long-winded posts, and everyone will scroll up! It's a win-win!

Besides, it's not about you guys, or everyone knowing we were here first... it's that I want the developers to know I support them, and that hopefully they'll read my post. Not too concerned about you all

Or you could just post your feedback like everyone else. Maybe even try it with a few less obscenities and empty threats while you're at it.

I've experienced this far too often as well. One recent title, Space Run Galaxy, was astoundingly slow to load despite being a relatively simple game with a small following, although I think it was attributed more to the fact they did not have nearly enough servers to host the game and less about memory allocation. But either way, you could go make lunch while it loaded. Ugh.

Definitely. All for other gameplay modes besides 1V1 in the future. Plenty of titles stay relevant years after release by adding features and I think it would help Star Control stay on the radar if the canon could expand while simultaneously adding additional multiplayer gameplay modes as new ships and content are introduced.

Thank you, Awkbird, for this excellent critique! I'll make sure to DO THAT, bub. Who knew a forum full of adults would get their lil girl panties in a bunch over a couple of curse words? I feel INCREDIBLE PASSION about these issues, in particular. You know what that is, right? 

So a few thoughts (I'll likely add more in additional posts as it comes to me)

 

Intro Theme

I don't necessarily have a problem with the theme, but will we be getting this audio and the intro animatic (at  least) synced up so we can see it in action?

 

Human Theme

 

If I didn't know any better, I'd say this was influenced by the Precursors remix of the Earth Starbase menu theme. A THEME WITHIN A THEME. THEMECEPTION. (Psst, I actually like it quite a bit.)

 

Planets

I have to agree with adding at least SOME form of grasslands/highlands/forest planet on release, even if it has to have less foliage. I like the ones that are there, though.

 

Mukay

Mukay is Mukay.

 

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeps

Zomg, look at all of these ships. Okay, so if noone else is going to ask...what the hell is the Greegrox? WHAT THE HELL IS THE GREEGROX, COMMANDER? The ships could all use pallet buffs, but other than that, I think the layouts at least FEEL right to me. Also the Greegrox. That thing is going to gnaw at me over the next month, I just know it ._.;;

I just have one thing to say...

 

I WAS #$%^ING RIGHT! LEGS! TAKE THAT, VOLUSIANUS! 

 

EDIT: For those just joining us, Vol and I had a lengthy discussion a year ago about the Scryve artwork that was released. He saw a 4 arm alien. I saw a 2 arm, 2 leg manspreading alien.

Did you not hear? We're not allowed to use naughty curse words on this forum, bub. 

Also, I assumed the Scryve was a very tall alien sitting on a throne. Is that not the case? That render looks like a short, stocky alien with no knee-joints? 

If those words offend you, I will redact them. But you can't bring me down from this ... sense of victory.

They just rendered him sitting/manspreading. Just like Jeff (sans any manspreading).

 

Yeah yeah, I know. But WAIT. THERE'S MORE. THEY COULD BE QUADRUPEDS.

Here is my feedback...

There’s no world editor tool. If you think the map design tools in various games you’ve played are 
rough, we have zilch, nada, nothing for creating worlds. They’re procedurally generated right now
which might sound good to some but as everyone this year came to understand, procedurally generated
worlds can be pretty bland. You really need a game designer in there to help make these worlds fun
and interesting to explore.

…and there’s no tool to do that.

So that is a major focus of our work right now, designing and creating a tool to allow the game designer 
to create custom worlds.

Thank you guys for understanding that PG = soulless husks. But then Brad said...

Star Control 2 had around 500 star systems.   We are looking at around 700.  

---

So we have ideas for lots more (planet types). But there’s only time for 6 and we have to pick them based on
gameplay.

700 star systems. 

Let's say that only a little over half have a landable planet. So... 360. That means that there are going to be 60 copies of each planet. No. That really sucks. (And if all 700 have more than one landable world....... No. NO. NO!)

Andrew, I know you are reading this. Do you remember when I said I was going to make a mod to destroy all the filler? This is the kind of thing that I would want to strip out. I don't want to have to land on 360 cloneworlds. If I wanted to do that, I would play Mass Effect or NMS.

---

Normally, we leave about 60 days of iteration. That’s when the game is basically done besides bug fixes
and balance and we just play it. In the case of Star Control, it’s going to be more like 120 days.

I suspect you will need more than 120 days. You guys are new at RPGs. You are going to be highly criticized if you deliver a game with numerous quest lines broken or malfunctioning. A gamebreaking bug in an RPG that blocks progress in the main or sidestory will tank you faster than anything. It is the #1 reason why I abandon RPGs without completing them.

---

First, it’s because the story is got to resonate. Second, because the original cast of aliens isn’t in this
game, there will be no quarter given to us if the game is flawed. There will be no benefit of the doubt. 
This is the essence of the Founders program. We need you to pound on us privately so that we can fix
things before they are public.

LOCAL MULTIPLAYER. There. Said it. This is what I am going to judge you guys on. 

---

Right now, the game is using a lot more memory than we want. This is mostly because the art is coming
in so fast that we haven’t had a chance to optimize it. Star Control, however, has a lot of art.

This is why Andrew was asking about the video card RAM, wasn't it?

---

But over time, you will find Precursor relics as well as meet various alien traders who will happily trade 
you a new ship component for the right price.

When you get (or buy) a new component, you can add it to your ship. This would include new weapons, 
defenses, special abilities, crew pods, sensors, engines, fuel tanks, etc.

But how will these items actually work with human technology? With SC2, you could argue that precursor tech could automatically adapt. What about in SCO? As you said, Humans will have some lousy starting tech...

---

Figure 11: The ships in game. We await your feedback.

So... Homing in on the new alien reveals...

• Dan'Nath are looking pretty cool. Very Vorlon-ish...
• Mowlings, now that they have been revealed... look dumb. Way too cartoony (but not as cartoony as the Menk-Mack). Chester Cheeta cartoony. I want to punch them. Jeff looks much better.
• Phamysht.... Ugh.... So part of their problem is that the thumbnail sized picture you gave us makes them look like a duck in a viking helmet or some sort of retarded Yak. Yeah, I realize they are some sort of annelid (worm), but this is what I see...

• The Phamysht model art looks interesting, though. I will withhold further criticism until I can see a better picture.
• Was surprised that the Xraki were not the Phamysht... Bummer.
• I can't make out much on the Drakend, even with their model art shown. Kinda remind me of the Druuge. Or Winston.

As far as the ships... They look pretty good. Except for the Greegrox... But he's special.

---

We’ve been playing Super-Melee for awhile and as you know, there’s been some debate on how much
we should change from the classic series.

It would be good to have some more combat videos, even if the physics are still being hammered down. Can you provide those in the next update?

Tripeds, even. Heck, if he's packing something behind his loincloth, he could be a pentaped.

"They’re procedurally generated right now which might sound good to some but as everyone this year came to understand, procedurally generated worlds can be pretty bland. You really need a game designer in there to help make these worlds fun and interesting to explore.

…and there’s no tool to do that."

 

Another one of those things I could have told their industry... 20 years ago, or so.  Oh, wait... I did.

How many millions did you guy's have to spend to finally get to where I already was 20 years ago?  I could have saved someone a lot of money on this one.

This is a pretty common occurrence, actually... happens all the time.  Another 30 years and the modern game industry may actually have finally caught up to their ignored ancestors.  It long ago became comical to watch them "blindly blunder forward through trial and error praying that things work out well in the end".  Haha...

Don't have time to read this nicely big new update, will have to post later about whatever is in it... just couldn't resist this one.  That quote of my own I just used is from 1997, hahaha!!!