Precursors_TiLT Precursors_TiLT

The planet design

The planet design

Is it set in stone?

So, the planet design. It's going to be controversial among Star Control fans, trust me. I'm talking about this:

Star Control planets

 

I get the explanation by the devs. We're supposed to be able to zoom down on these things and go straight into exploration, which is a noble goal that has its obvious merits. There's also a major pitfall here that is making me somewhat worried: It's stylistically very different from Star Control 2's visual design. 

SC2 featured a vast galaxy filled with planets that, if not necessarily realistic, came off as believable and grounded in both their visual design and their simulations. Visiting Alpha Centauri was a breathtaking experience the first time because it really felt like it could be the real thing.

These new planets don't share that vibe at all. These look like they come directly out of Spore or some random cartoon, and there's nothing believable (let alone realistic) about them. This gives the impression that Stardock is going for a cartoony vibe for the game itself (and if they don't, the planets will clash even more), which is a very strange decision when none of the previous games went for that style. 

There are ways to handle smooth transitions to a planetary surface that doesn't involve going all-out cartoon universe. Are such alternatives completely out of the question at this point? I would be somewhat disappointed to see Star Control 2's grounded atmosphere be abandoned for something so diametrically different as this. 

A related question would be: Has Stardock decided to go cartoon style for the entire game, or is it just planets?

666,168 views 173 replies
Reply #126 Top

I don't quite think it's fair to say that SETI has conclusively proven that nowhere in our local bubble is there any form of alien life, we might be jumping the gun a little bit here! I'd also add that we find interesting little things out about our home planet and the others in this system we call Sol all the time, theres certainly scope for oddness out there.

Starcontrol is a game that is _based_ in reality,  it involves humans and the planet earth, set in a large void containing stellar objects all things that really exist for it to be based around (Unlike for example Thomas was alone, a game about shapes having an adventure). It extends on that reality greatly and pushes it, the inclusion of FTL travel and all the weird and wonderful aliens that we just haven't met yet! To me thats what makes the things that we know more important.

I do agree Stardock has a great history with games, some to my shame I don't own yet but am looking forward to the day I can comfortably put my hand in my pocket and grab (I'm looking at you Ashes, oooooooh yes, you will be mine!) and I'll admit I'm looking forward to seeing more content, I always wonder when we have these little back and forths if the things we debate are set in stone yet or not!

 

Thaaaat said, you did remind me of something I was going to ask, to the Create Topic button!

Reply #127 Top

Quoting Vaelzad, reply 123


Quoting Tovanion,


Polling is a valid way of knowing what the Founders, as a group, think.



Polling only works if everyone participates and there is no way to enforce complete participation. If people don't participate your information is skewed and is actually more harmful than good. 


I have to say that I disagree with that statement Valzead. Polling is a great way to get info. What you just said was "polling is not a valid means of gathering information" Polling is a very valid way to get a generalized opinion. The very beauty of it is that not everyone has to participate! (Just so you know, voting works the same way). Think about it. There is a poll. It is sent to everyone. If you care about the issue at hand, great! You will get valid information as they actually care about the matter at hand.

The problem arises when you force people to participate. People who don't care tend to pick somewhat at random, and inaccurately. "I don't really care, so ill pick that one!" Tends to happen a lot. If there is a poll, and it is not mandatory, those who care about it and have been discussing it will be sure to participate, and from that you can get a better idea of how all your founders feel about a subject then you ever could by looking only at individual arguments. In a poll you can give anonymous data, while in a form, you have to fear reactions, and counter reactions, as well as peer pressure.

Overall what I am trying to say boils down to this. POLLS ARE RELEVANT! And we should use them (even if they are unofficial) As far as I have seen, there is no agreement in the contract we signed saying that the founders can't participate in founder based polls, not open to the public. 

So go forth founders, and cast your vote! Let us know what you think, and your opinions on the matter.

Vote here: POLL

If you only want to see results, or have alredy voted, go here: http://strawpoll.me/6292325/r


 

Reply #128 Top

Both of you have a point for polls.

Quoting TheUr-quanMaster, reply 127

Think about it. There is a poll. It is sent to everyone. If you care about the issue at hand, great! You will get valid information as they actually care about the matter at hand.

The problem arises when you force people to participate. People who don't care tend to pick somewhat at random, and inaccurately. "I don't really care, so ill pick that one!" Tends to happen a lot. If there is a poll, and it is not mandatory, those who care about it and have been discussing it will be sure to participate, and from that you can get a better idea of how all your founders feel about a subject then you ever could by looking only at individual arguments.

 

But only those who believe in polls will take the poll. You can have a vested interest in something but still believe polls to be a useless waste of time and therefore not participate. So polls still will no reflect a true opinion.

 

You would need to have a certain number of people to participate to create any statistical significance. Any statisticians around who can enlighten us with what should be the minimum population needed to get as relevant as possible poll results?

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Reply #129 Top

Quoting TheUr-quanMaster, reply 127

It is sent to everyone.

Well.............. I don't know about that. This particular poll is buried in 6 pages of forum posts.

 

 

Reply #130 Top

Hey, we got 22 votes. 13 are positive and 9 misclicks. XD

 

POLL

Reply #131 Top

Quoting Xenove, reply 128

You would need to have a certain number of people to participate to create any statistical significance. Any statisticians around who can enlighten us with what should be the minimum population needed to get as relevant as possible poll results?




Only have some training/experience in statistics and polling (from a sociology and marketing standpoint), but do have a decent understanding, so I'll give it a shot. There's already a few erroneous assumptions about how polling or how statistical information functions in this thread and there's no easy answer to your question, so I'll just try and give a very brief (very simplified) rundown, which may have some errors (it's also 1am here :P).

The number of people required for a poll is based on (though not always limited to) population size and desired error rate/confidence interval and confidence level. Error rate is margin of confidence (expressed as a percentage) and is considered repeatable via probability/confidence level ('x' times correct out of 'y, or as a percentage', is sort of like standard deviation). And it means when you get a result for a question, it is likely to be correct within that error margin (up or down) from that number, as frequently as the probability. E.g. An answer for a question that gives a result of 50%, may have a range of 47% to 53% in a survey if it had a 3% error margin, and would be stated to be correct 90% of the time, or 9 times out of 10.

Determining confidence level is complicated and hard to apply here, but if you want to make it more accurate, really what you'd want to do is run the poll multiple times (not necessarily on the same people) and ensure the population is as diverse as possible (so, not only founders, who are self selected in the first place). And make it as accessible as possible (not buried in a specific topic, on page 6, since there's even more self selection there).

You'd also need to decide on a margin of error that's acceptable. Frequent increments used are 10%, 5% and 3%. But, the thing is, the required response rates scale with population, so it's not a simple ratio, and the confidence interval is also effected by how divided the answers are (e.g. extreme answers are more confident than 51/49 splits). So, if there are 1000 Founders, you assume a confidence level of 95%, and you randomly selected 500 of them to send the poll to, and 88 answered (decent response rate is between 10 and 20%), with 50% selecting one of the answers to your question, you could reasonably say the range would be 40-60% of Founders believe/feel/agree with that answer. If there are only 100 Founders, with only 50 people responding, with 50% selecting one answer, that would also give a 40-60% range.

On top of that, one of the key things is to ensure the question is correctly formed and the answers allow for a representation of opinion. The current poll doesn't do either of those, I'm afraid. The question "Planet Design / Art Direction" is too vague and combines multiple broad topics into one, which means each person responding is going to interpret it differently (even if they've read the context of the whole thread). Answers are inconsistent in word usage (love versus like/dislike), there's no neutral response (neither like or dislike) and no option not to answer (which is actually useful for a number of reasons, like gauging how much this topic matters to the population, or uncertainty, etc). Though, at least the multiple vote option is disabled.

Not sure if that helps at all, but there's some (remember, very simplified) info.

All that said, even the worst formed polls may be more accurate than reading through a forum and trying to perceive a response/feel out the community directly, simply because the human mind is so full of cognitive bias and glitches that there are still, for example, people out there who genuinely believe the world is flat. :P

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Reply #132 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 129


Quoting TheUr-quanMaster,

It is sent to everyone.



Well.............. I don't know about that. This particular poll is buried in 6 pages of forum posts.

 

 

You misunderstand. I was making an example to prove my point. I was talking about a metaphorical poll, to serve as an example. I wasn't referencing the real poll at that point. 

Reply #133 Top

Quoting TheUr-quanMaster, reply 132

You misunderstand. I was making an example to prove my point. I was talking about a metaphorical poll, to serve as an example. I wasn't referencing the real poll at that point. 

But I was. You want people to vote, but the polls are buried at the end of a long forum thread. You'd best start a new one.

Reply #134 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 133


Quoting TheUr-quanMaster,

You misunderstand. I was making an example to prove my point. I was talking about a metaphorical poll, to serve as an example. I wasn't referencing the real poll at that point. 



But I was. You want people to vote, but the polls are buried at the end of a long forum thread. You'd best start a new one.

I think us Founders are enthusiastic enough that if there was an 'all hands on deck' call we'd answer.  I say bring on the polls.  The worst thing that could happen is... nothing, SD just ignores us.

Reply #135 Top

The worst thing that could happen is that someone figures out that Strawpoll.me votes can be spoofed by changing the host IP or by voting on a cell phone...

Reply #136 Top

Here's something I'd like Stardock's input on:

One thing that struck me today is that Stardock just released another space game this very year: Galactic Civilizations 3. Here's what the planet design looks like in that game:

GC3 Planets

What changed during the 6 months since this game's release to make Stardock feel as if this kind of look for planets is insufficient? Why is this kind of design good enough for Galactic Civilizations but not for Star Control, despite the latter having a history of such design? It's kind of hard to acknowledge the arguments behind the look of the new Star Control's planets when I see the above screenshot. It looks visually interesting, with lots of color and identity. Why not go for this type of style?

Quoting Hunam_, reply 124

^ To talk about something meaningfully we need something more than just a measly ringtone.  #:(

They've given us a rough roadmap of when we can expect new stuff. Don't get greedy.

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Reply #137 Top

Nothing has changed, it's just that GalCiv is supposed to be a "more serious" universe than Star Control.  Games like GalCiv strive for that Babylon 5/Star Trek/Star Wars feel.  With Star Control I think they are going for more of an artsy, cartoonish look like Team Fortress has.  Personally I like that idea and think it would be a great look for Star Control.

I'm no artist, and it's just these three planets we are talking about, but too me they seem "too bright".  I think I would like it better if the colors were more muted in some way.  And they do look too much like Spore, and the whole point would be to give Star Control a unique look that no other game has.  But I do like the general idea.

 

Reply #138 Top

Quoting Precursors_TiLT, reply 136

Quoting Hunam_,


^ To talk about something meaningfully we need something more than just a measly ringtone.  #:(



They've given us a rough roadmap of when we can expect new stuff. Don't get greedy.

 

Asking for a couple of concept pics is greedy?... Ok....

Reply #139 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 138

Asking for a couple of concept pics is greedy?... Ok....

You aren't being greedy.  :)

Consider that the window to get this stuff to us this year may have elapsed. I'm on vacation now, and I suspect many of the team members at Stardock are as well.

Either we'll see a Christmas surprise, or we won't see anything until mid January.

Reply #140 Top

SD probably feels they have to reinvent the wheel.

If they used almost the same art as GALCIV there could be many reviews calling Star Control Foundation (That is what I am naming this game) a half-assed attempt that is only recycling SD material.

 

There is a good chance they want to avoid such reviews.

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Reply #141 Top

Quoting Xenove, reply 140

SD probably feels they have to reinvent the wheel.

If they used almost the same art as GALCIV there could be many reviews calling Star Control Foundation (That is what I am naming this game) a half-assed attempt that is only recycling SD material.

 

There is a good chance they want to avoid such reviews.

 

Good point!  As I mentioned, SD has a great track record of space games, so one of their unique and self-imposed difficulties is making this game, while making it look different than their other games.  That HAS to happen, just like you said.  The art style is a great way of doing that.  I also agree that the planets are particularly bright...which would be cool, used somewhat sparingly.  They can design darker pallet planets too (radioactive, volcanic, dingy dust storms, lightning-wracked, who knows?!) and make them very common to balance things out...keep space dark and all that.  :) Please??

Reply #142 Top

Quoting Maogan, reply 141


Quoting Xenove,

SD probably feels they have to reinvent the wheel.

If they used almost the same art as GALCIV there could be many reviews calling Star Control Foundation (That is what I am naming this game) a half-assed attempt that is only recycling SD material.

 

There is a good chance they want to avoid such reviews.



 

Good point!  As I mentioned, SD has a great track record of space games, so one of their unique and self-imposed difficulties is making this game, while making it look different than their other games.  That HAS to happen, just like you said.  The art style is a great way of doing that.  I also agree that the planets are particularly bright...which would be cool, used somewhat sparingly.  They can design darker pallet planets too (radioactive, volcanic, dingy dust storms, lightning-wracked, who knows?!) and make them very common to balance things out...keep space dark and all that.  :) Please??

 

Man, I've been on a Fallout 4 binge for a few weeks now, and your comment made me realize I REALLY want to find redux planets that resemble the Glowing Sea.

Reply #143 Top

^ So we could dive in it in our lander and explore the shizz out of it.

Reply #144 Top

Amen! 

 

Progress!  Hope SD reads this far into the thread.  :)  The planet STYLE is fine, but the colors could use some (possibly extreme) variation.  :)

Reply #145 Top

Quoting Maogan, reply 144

The planet STYLE is fine, but the colors could use some (possibly extreme) variation.

Already on the books. 

Reply #146 Top

Sweet.  Thanks Vaelzad, for the reply.  I look forward to seeing more examples when that time comes.

 

Reply #147 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 142

Man, I've been on a Fallout 4 binge for a few weeks now, and your comment made me realize I REALLY want to find redux planets that resemble the Glowing Sea.

Hmm, good idea.  Radiation should be another hazard on planets, along side weather, fire, and earthquakes.

Reply #148 Top

^ I'm not sure about earthquakes. I mean what damage can an earthquake possibly do to a hover vehicle?.. Radiation can't possibly be stronger on the planet surface than in space or can it?

Fire as in volcanoes, eruptions, lava makes sense.

Lightning as in storms and high winds (which is another factor that can affect the lander movement behavior), sure.

Chemical composition of the atmosphere? Can't really affect the lander or can it?

 

P.S. We've already seen 1 planet critter that we probably will be able to harvest for bio data using our lander. Wouldn't it be cool to have a gi-hugic monster to fight on the planet surface?..  O:)

Reply #149 Top

From the Ultronomiocon: 

 

"

  • Seismic ratings greater than 2 indicate earthquakes on the planet. Earthquakes are visible and localized to a small area; it is possible to avoid them. You may be able to navigate planets harboring earthquakes with a magnitude of up to 5 with no loss of crew, depending on your skill."

It worked well in SC2. It may be a hover vehicle, but being too close to the ground doesn't stop the ground from hitting you with strong enough seismic activity.

Reply #150 Top

Watch Star Trek The Search For Spock and see what an Earthquake can do!  :)  More 1-3 more types of hazards could be fun to add!  I hadn't thought about it till reading Hunam.