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So........ About Combat...

So........ About Combat...

My #1 question is how faithful will Stardock be regarding how combat will function. Star Control had a very unique combat style not found in any other game. It was the reason I kept installing UQM over and over (once I lost my original SC and SC2 media).

What is Stardock's initial take on how combat will operate? Will it be 2D (or 3D iso with a single plane)? Will we rotate our ships with A/D and fly forward with W? Will it feel like the originals with extra bells and whistles?

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Reply #51 Top

Us SFB players actually have a pretty deep understanding of the map size issue, I actually made an earlier post about this subject.  It works just fine without the wrap around, in fact SC is the only such game to use a wrap around screen.  The wrap around effectively created a "closed map" of relatively small size.  It sounds like this new SC has a fairly large closed map (a "solar system"), which is essentially an open map due to it's size.  There are two potentially serious issues on an open map.  The first is that it allows a player to refuse to engage.  A player with a speed advantage (or a cloaking device) can make the game very boring by refusing to engage on an open map.  The other is probably the biggest balance concern within these types of games, that causes issues regardless of map size, but is at it's worst on an open map.  It is a concept SFB players call "The Kaufman Retrograde" which in simple terms means that a ship running away and firing backwards at a pursuer is at an approximate 3:1 advantage over it's pursuer.  The retrograde will be the source of most of the most balance issues they will encounter in using an open map.  Luckily, retrograde issues can be addressed in the design of the weapons, devices, and ships.  They don't necessarily have to be address through map size.  For example, in the original the Spathi was designed to retrograde but did not have any serious retrograde issues because the missiles had a very short range.

Any map size is useable, the different sizes and types of maps just have different issues associated with them.  An open map is the most difficult to design and balance for, but still can be used as long as you understand the issues involved and address them in the design of the ships.  With such simple ships and so few systems on them balancing the ships for large open map combat should not be difficult.

If the designers are wanting to see the power of the retrograde in action, just temporarily re-tune on of your ships to be like a Spathi but with a long range rear firing missile.  See if anyone in the office can beat it... Nope:-)  This is an extreme example of what you need to be careful of on an open map, the issues you actually encounter will be far more subtle.

 

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Reply #52 Top

The Druuge when controlled by AI...

Reply #53 Top

I was never much of a fan of the original Star Control 2 combat, especially starting out.  The Spathi Eluder was an okay ship but combat really wasn't tolerable until either the main ship received enough upgrades or more of the alien races were recruited.  The satellites were a nightmare at the beginning of the game.  Towards the end of the game they were some quick, cheap low grade resources.  I like the idea of keeping the combat in the arcade sense, I just hope its not like pulling teeth like the old combat system.  Needless to say, I didn't spend much time with Star Control 1.  

I think the most interesting thing about the combat was the ship customization.  It really gave it a numbers game to play with which is what I love.  

Reply #54 Top

Quoting MusM, reply 53

I was never much of a fan of the original Star Control 2 combat, especially starting out.  The Spathi Eluder was an okay ship but combat really wasn't tolerable until either the main ship received enough upgrades or more of the alien races were recruited.  The satellites were a nightmare at the beginning of the game.  Towards the end of the game they were some quick, cheap low grade resources.  I like the idea of keeping the combat in the arcade sense, I just hope its not like pulling teeth like the old combat system.  Needless to say, I didn't spend much time with Star Control 1.  

I think the most interesting thing about the combat was the ship customization.  It really gave it a numbers game to play with which is what I love.  

 

Yeah, I hope they will provide options for people at both ends of the scale. For those who enjoy the combat, they can get it in the unvarnished edition with all the nostalgia factor they can handle. For those of us who are more interested in exploration and story I hope there will be options to skip combat or simplify it. The endless combat in the SC games was and is really off-putting for me.

Reply #55 Top

Have to say the no-wrap around does potentially worry me as well, but I think Kavik pointed out many elements of why and how to compensate for that. The other side of the coin on a fixed size map though is "turreting", or basically keeping still and turning only. 

In SC2 my end fleet was mostly Spathi, Pkunk and Supox and anything else was mostly to handle special cases like the Sylandro. With those ships, the wraparound was potentially risky if you got your angle wrong, but it was often also the only way to get into position for an attack. Without it, even with a gravity boost for additional speed and a shallow angle of approach, the turn rates on the large ships was usually enough to lead and hit any of the three. In that case, the wraparound ended up creating a nice balance.

Curious/excited to see how the current implementation handles though! 

Reply #56 Top

This may seem off topic, but its not. Will there still be winning ditys? Unique music played when a ship wins a fight? This is a part of what made starcon2 combat great!

My 3 favorite winning dittys-

Androsynth: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Androsynth-Ditty.mp3
Chmmer: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Chmmr-Ditty2.mp3
Melnorme: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Melnorme-Ditty.mp3
(I prefer the Precursors remix of these of course, but I can't find them at the moment.

Go here to hear them all:

http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/

 

Reply #57 Top

Quoting TheUr-quanMaster, reply 56

This may seem off topic, but its not. Will there still be winning ditys? Unique music played when a ship wins a fight? This is a part of what made starcon2 combat great!

My 3 favorite winning dittys-

Androsynth: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Androsynth-Ditty.mp3
Chmmer: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Chmmr-Ditty2.mp3
Melnorme: http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/Melnorme-Ditty.mp3
(I prefer the Precursors remix of these of course, but I can't find them at the moment.

Go here to hear them all:

http://www.sa-matra.net/sounds/starcontrol/

There needs to be ditties and crew animations.

And the Androsynth one is the one I always think of off the top of my head. That and the Syreen...

But the SC3 ditties? UGH! Can you hear my ears bleeding?

Reply #58 Top

Had a thought... not all ship captains are created equal (Mycon and Sylandro Probes excluded).  That is, ship AI should vary between battles, given the same alien race. There should be novices/newbies and veterans, and the battle difficulty (or really the piloting and effectiveness of the enemy) should reflect that.  

And of course the loot! 

Reply #59 Top

Quoting Vaelzad, reply 1



What is Stardock's initial take on how combat will operate? Will it be 2D (or 3D iso with a single plane)? Will we rotate our ships with A/D and fly forward with W? Will it feel like the originals with extra bells and whistles?



 

Combat as it is being developed right now is being done as both 2D and 3D iso. What I mean by this is you have some camera control at your disposal. You can pivot the camera into a complete top down view if you so desire, or you can play it from any angle from the 90 degree top down to an isometric view that you are able to rotate around as well.  This is something I felt the player base was going to be very divided on which is best and since we can provide both without compromising the gameplay we are making sure that it can be either. 

 

The traditional WASD controls are in effect, along with gamepad support. You will have direct control over an individual ship that you fly in space. Right now there are two abilities per ship that allow for them to be played in very unique ways.  We may add additional abilities or functionality to the game's combat but as of right now we don't want to over complicate things as we build them.  

 

The design approach for the game's combat is that it should have more depth than complexity.  While a lot of people may feel that the difference is subjective, here how it is defined for Star Control.  Depth means that the action/ability/control that is being preformed can be utilized in many different ways. Something that is Complex takes many inputs or variables to align in order to perform a single action.  

 

An aspect from the original combat that occurred in Star Control that is going away is the screen wrap around. This was an aspect that was very disorienting, instead of wrapping around to the other side of the screen the edge of the solar system is going to be considered a disengage zone, where if you spend too much time in it the ship you are controlling is going to run away. 

 

Also the play field is going to be changing from fight to fight. Rather than having combat around a single planet, you are going to be having it in a solar system that is going to have multiple gravity fields in play. Depending on the star type, planets, and other features of the system, the gravity fields is going to feel very different, and it will CHANGE during combat based on the position of the planets orbiting the sun.  The gamespace has much more dynamic field for everyone to capitalize on. 

 

Are there going to be any Tatooine type planets with multiple suns?