I know Sins is more like chess. I bring up that quote because it makes a valid point concerning games much like it (Sins included).

In poker, the odds of you getting any card is just as good as your opponent's. You get the same number of cards and are allowed the same moves in equal quantities. But here's where it gets good. With chess, it's all laid out before you. You may not know what your opponent has planned, but you certainly can see what he's doing and where he's come from. With poker, not only can you not be sure of what your opponent has waiting, but then there's the factors that can't be put into a video game or placed on a board, like bluffing! And that's often what real war is. Some of the greatest moves in military history can not be reproduced in Sins, Starcraft, or even the Total War series. Sometimes one needs games built around utter deception to truly test their hand.

Of course, a well-rounded experience is possibly the best. So go play some team-based paintball too.

MMmmmmm team based paintball.....

Now your singing my tune!

I like the chess feel that is Sins. 

Me too, but even that doesn't really touch on the OP, so I'm just letting the currents take me.

no no no-- you cannot and will not convince me sins is a hard game by showing me some Asians and some dude in a suit-uttering jiba jaba about life and the human condition-dear god-Iam where iam -money wise-hihi-cos i worked hard-i love sins cos i play it alot and i learnt to win in our crazy aoe,sc and sin lans. Theres no high intellectual sins game. It is all fun, colonization, build orders, research and counters.. its your own inability to think that makes it hard.  

Don't worry i forgive you for having to deal with high learning curves. It very understandable to your reactions. 

Poor RiddleKing & Sareth.....as we all know the real thinking man's game is Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

I'm afraid that once preset maps are being used only one or two strategies will be viable, which is horrible since this game has already little versatility.

Besides if you want to do a fair 1v1 game vs another pro player why not just play on razor's edge?

I doupt that. expecially if balancing continues after release.

And. razors edge has planets. therefor, resource rock counts, artifacts, militia, and planet bonuses may not be even.

When things fail-- play with the map 'storm front' then you will know the truth about your game-style. 

Bobby's lost something...

His mojo was stolen by this:

what's most funny about Sinperium's post is that the new 'grandmaster' wins by doing a ridiculous number of very simple tasks very very quickly.... which brings us back to starcraft.

I think both map preferences have benefits and would hope that both would be standard play. However, the broken symmetry on existing pre-made maps is apparently enough of a deal breaker for the online community. I'm always up for more options, so I would vote for more options and then let the chips fall where the may involving the online 'standard'

There are some real anaolgies there to how some "Pros" play as well.

Nantucket situation for sure!

Not seeing a high intellectual sins game is really only attributed to the quoted individual above.  Sins is all about screwing with other people and forcing their hand, that is if you have skill enough to do so.  Riddle king can baselessly declare that others are at fault when in his own writing he shows his extreme creative limitations.  He will no doubt tag along on my posts like a pimple on my ass.  Just remember that he has delegated himself to this position of his own free choice. 

Its fun dealing with lickspittle like riddle king.  Everyone should have their own forum sidekick.

My paper disproves spock

Sareth you cannot convince me sins is a high intellectual game by talking to me about creative writing. Your failed attempts to convince me with ideologies that don't mix is a show sign of your style. If you want to convince everyone that sins is a high intellectual game to justify the time you spend playing instead of studying, working or looking for work or better work then there's no need for such a silly venture. Just accept it is a game that some people learn naturally faster and find it lots of fun and those who struggle and take longer.

Just because they struggle to figure out the in and outs of this game doesn't mean its a high intellectual game. I think the limiting factor here is your brain being unable to accept the fact some people just learn games faster than others and find it easy.

I need no justification for how I spend my time, I take responsibility for everything I choose in my life, that is how I am.  I don't allow any sort of delusion to come into my life and I headhunt weakness and fear in others around me.  I keep my motives pure and my focus sharp.  I play sins because I enjoy it, and I especially enjoy playing the other intelligent players who are on ICO (this is where the "high intellectual part comes in").  Also, your creative limitation has nothing to do with your writing.  I am talking about the thought process behind the writing, and how I view that to be limited. 

I am not confusing the game's learning curve, with "high strategy".   I have no confusion about learning curves.  The discussion is actually centered upon what occurs after you have learned the game.  Are you able to take it to a higher level(and sins is a game that you can)?  This ability translates to all things in life.  It is the "barrier of mediocrity" that separates people in society.  Sins provides an easy way for those who normally wouldn't ever penetrate this barrier to learn how to overcome it.  This takes constant practice, and losing the right sort of thinking for even a short while can really set you back a long ways towards achieving your goals.  

There are many other games that resonate with people in this fashion, sins is resonates well with me because it has several advantages over many other games i've played.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, as you are one of those hard minded people that can never be convinced.  Ever wonder why I posted threads in the past the way I did? Because my goal was to determine which people in the community were just like you and do so for all the players on these forums so that new players could retain proper perspective.  I don't care If I come off as looking bad as well in the process (an inevitability of negative association).  The point is that the threads give people a map to the existing bias so they can better help the developers by avoiding all the crap.  Also, If I keep the negative focus of those few bad eggs then others with good ideas will have relative safety to voice their ideas.  This is how you maintain a breeding ground of innovation, to keep the crop strong so that the developers can harvest it.

RiddleKing - noun: 1) a troll on the SoaSE forums that is not to be taken seriously under any circumstances  2) a source of entertainment that is to be enjoyed, not trifled with

Sareth that was too much much for me to read but i can assure you i will later during the day. As for Seleuceia well we go way back and I'm shocked   you can be so observant.

The premade maps bore because they are not LARGE enough, the only "map" I like to play and fits my play style is the huge multi star map with over 150 planets. I like long games with epic space so we can all build up then have wars worthy of the big screen.

The only premade map I like is whirlwind since there is enough space to make a large empire and fortify it, while having boarders close enough for interesting "mental dialogue."

Clearly there are a number of mechanics that need to be worked out, however

it certainly cannot  adequately be described as matter of symmetry. While SoaSE is an RTS, it

is more importantly a 4X. As such game length and greater number of base game elements (unit roles, buildings, research...etc) is a major detractor both in popularity in the community. This makes as you describe am accurate

and fair rating systems more difficult where a DoTA match could last 20-40 min or SC match rarely going more than 2 hrs

Obviously this isn't all but my main point is every game has its own personality, knowing your preferences can help from ruining your expectations.

Also I'm a long time chess player, and there is an enormous gap between Chess (if you want to call it a TBS) and SC or SoaSE and not just because they are RTS. BTW Fischer realized randomness was a necessary element needed to continue competitive chess and that is how chess960 came out. If perhaps Deep Blue had faced Kasparov progressively in chess960, Kasparov would have been kicking it's ass to this day since the book of openings would be much larger.

I think personally that as human computer interfaces evolve the 4X gaming community will grow as the macro-management heavy SoaSE can be more seemlessly integrated with RTS like SC where quick micro is valued. In the meanwhile there is important research still being done in RTS AI and design.

I'd just like to note something. 

There are different types, and levels of "pro." Someone who plays on a single Starcraft map and knows all the ins and outs of that map is a pro on that map. Someone who develops an effective strategy for playing on randomly created maps  is a pro as well. And the person who plays solely on that one map may beat that person with the strategy for random maps.

But there are more maps than that one map. So the person with the strategy for random maps will have an advantage on any one of those other maps. So he can be pro as well on any of these other maps, when compared to the people skilled on one map only. Both of these different people are "pros", but different types of pros.

IMHO, the one who developed the strategy for random maps is more skilled in my opinion, simply because he/she is more adaptable, and can put up a good fight regardless. But that's just my opinion.

and oddski gets a +1 karma

My god this post is wrong in so many ways. Being random forces you to adapt to a situation where you were put into a worse one then your opponent. Which being weighed even with skill you are still behind. Because if he has +25% ore/crystal extractor. It does not matter if you are skilled or not he is still ahead of you. There is no adapting to that.

This does not force good team work, it forces you to work against an unfair advantage because the enemy got bill gates as their eco. Professionals should not play on random maps. And don't get me started on that analogy Serath <_<...

But I DO understand what you are saying about having randomness as a way to uh make it exciting

Correction, their are two kinds of pro's competitive pro's which are ones that support balanced maps. And regular pro's. 

Find me a country featuring radial symmetry where conflicting forces are required to start on the exact opposite ends.

Thats a country, this is a video game. At least if that was referred to me.