Do not confuse yourself here with humanitarianism as the USG’s benevolence comes at a steep price. There is no manipulating right and wrong or any moral for that matter, save that for the PC nuts. People make decisions on what they are willing to do verses the right and wrong of it and they make them with little forethought or afterthought often times spontaneously. The most destructive form of motivation is through terror and fear and we have the best experts money can buy.  Movies like this are vivid representations of motivation of this sort.

 

Hahahaha, exactly why my absolute favorite Simpson's episode is the one where the two presidential candidates are revealed as evil aliens and then the people of America have no option but to vote one of them into office! I have seen no better jibe at how screwed up democracy has become in America.

Oh wait, i lied, my absolute favorite Simpson's episode is the 'tontine' one where Mr burns is trying to have Grandpa Simpson killed... shoots up the old persons home and the other old dude says "was that you or was that me?". That line nearly put me in hospital it cracked me up so much!!!

 

Edit: sorry been away for a while, got a bit behind in the conversation.

 

BoobzTwo, glad to hear you watched Amistad. There are some truly masterful works of cinematic wonder in this modern age, movies that hit so hard it is like you have just been punched through a brick wall and then you have to pick yourself up and dust yourself off,,,, i love that!

America has never been a Democracy, and I assure you that you do not want one. Plutocracy or Polyarchy are much better descriptions of it, but a Republic was the founding Fathers principle. All the first order countries around the world fall into the Plutocracy variants. Our spreading “Democracy” around the third world is tantamount to a death sentence for much of the indigenous people and their infrastructure and their defensive capabilities. How would you like to live in a defenseless shattered country in the Middle East? That’s democracy for you, go figure.

I was a nuclear engineer for 25 years and have a special place in my heart for old Simpson and his place of employment, hehehe.

 

Well i have no particular urge to go into such great detail all for the purpose of not calling America a democracy. The two forms of government overlap, so it is all a bit ambiguous. But i will meet you half way and refer to America as a representative democracy, happy?

As for what you say about our so called 'spreading of democracy' around the world, i don't see your point at all? Clearly most if not all populations around the world seek democracy of some kind, so long as they have a say in who governs them. Just look at what happened in Egypt or Libya and even Syria! As for the third world, there is no third world country where the population has it any worse than the populations of medieval Europe (climate and overpopulation issues aside) as they go through the process of dragging themselves into the modern age. Western influences on the whole are very beneficial, but certainly we could and should do allot more!

 

 

 

 

 

Freedom and Demoncracy are just marketing catch phrases to rally the people. Then when people disagree with the policies behind "fighting for freedom" and "spreading demoncracy" you are labeled unpatriotic. Marketing 101

BoobzTwo, there seems to be some confusion on De Beers so I will attempt to clarify.  It's actually a bit complicated and I'm just too lazy today to go into detail.  No, When I say blood diamond industry I'm not talking about the super valuable red rock you saw in the movie that everyone was fighting over, jokes aside.

De Beers themselves have put out a number of publications about the blood diamond industry and why De Beers is an absolute global necessity to protect us against it by making diamonds from illegitimate sources illegitimate.  Adopting policy standards like laser tagging and registration alongside maintaining their near monopoly for improved control is a central part in the strategy of course.  The strategy has changed since diamonds can now be made economically by machines and Russia has opened up its diamond vaults for the commercial market.  In response, De Beers has significantly adjusted the global supply by selling more to destroy the technology sector and drastically reduce any foreign profit margins.  This is in addition to giving away, as in free, special diamond testing equipment so the major dealers can tell the difference between De Beers and everyone else. The nature of the diamond market's value and profitability is tight control through supply and demand.  If you want to know more then I suggest you google or wikipedia it.

You want to hear anther little factoid?  To cut costs, the diamond cutting is starting to be outsourced into countries like India.

 

 

Personally I think it's a boring subject and just for the record the secularism sold onto us is a total sham most of the time.  Separation of church and state sure but it usually ends up being co opted into a united church of the religion Atheism.

You know atheism is not a religion, but that conversation is going on somewhere else on JU. Boring is right though, best left to others to postulate the un-ponderable. I have to stay with science, sorry.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, it seems pretty straight forward now. Now what isn't outsourced to India? I cannot remember when I called on a technical issue that I didn't spend half my time telling them I can barely hear / understand them and the rest of the time trying to understand why they cannot help me... progress I suppose.

Atheism technically is a religion. It's the religion of rejecting all other religions and the existence of a deity.

Exactly, but I am willing to bet you know as much about those American campaigns as you do about Iraq or Afghanistan. I am not trying to be mean here ... you just do not have the correct information. For instance, if you are interested in Afghanistan, where do you go for your information? I go to people like Malalai Joya who is living through the American invasion (call it democracy if you like) and Noam Chomsky. I do not go to our media in any venue for what I would think are obvious reasons. So I use Igor’s internet almost exclusively. If you are interested in trying to understand what this ‘democratic and freedom thing’ is actually about and you have an hour and a half … watch this video about the benevolence we have spread around their country. Don’t ask the USG!!! You just cannot force democricy and freedom on a country ... through war???

Malalai Joya and Noam Chomsky at Harvard   http://youtu.be/pcZhQLbvgEw

Nice ... good time for a laugh or two. When do you find the time to search out this stuff, hehehe!

Wrong, atheists cares nothing about your religion or anybody else's for that matter. They just don't believe in a one God. I am a child of enlightenment. I think irrational belief is a dangerous phenomenon and I try to consciously avoid it.

 

I'm sorry too because your coming across as looking like a crackpot with this post! because despite the limitations of world media, i am quite certain America did not invade Egypt, Iran or Libya!! And if your referring to western propaganda stiring things up, well i think that is quite insulting to the intelligence of the people fighting for their freedom in those countries. Afghanistan and Iraq do not fit in with what i was talking about at all, because obviously there is massive western interference in those two countries and massive amounts of propaganda and misinformation, which is obvious and insulting to my intelligence if you think i cannot see that!

 

Edit: i did wonder what will ever become of Iraq, then when they had their big soccer win i immediately realized their going to make it! It is a truely remarkable feet and is similarly inspiring as the movie 'Invictus' And here is a quote from an old news report "Despite our misery in Sadr City, we came out in the streets to celebrate the victory," said Ibrahim Karim, a 44-year-old engineer. "We are happy now because we have forgotten for a while our sad situation."

Just throw in a bit more stuff on 'Invictus'from wikipedia

While incarcerated on Robben Island prison, Nelson Mandela recited the poem to other prisoners and was empowered by its message of self mastery.

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I do not doubt your sincerity, just your information. Simply put, if you do not know (or believe) the USG was deeply involved in these Countries troubles (and about a hundred more), then you cannot have an accurate view of what has been going on in the Middle East since John F. Kennedy. You have to go back that far and do a lot of time consuming research through the last 50 years. The evidence is mostly there for the taking and analyzing, but you aren’t going to find the kind of info you need through movies or American media outlets … take the time and just watch this YouTube and you might begin to understand that what you think they get (democricy, freedom) is not what the people of these countries get. It is almost always worse ...

 Malalai Joya and Noam Chomsky at Harvard   http://youtu.be/pcZhQLbvgEw

I glad you like Noam's work and OMG how did I miss this 1    x (where's the infinity key)

Notice how, what I would say is the most important YouTube video of our time has only 5000 hits. But I guess what movie stars do with there time and star trek reruns are a network priority.

What do you think would happen if this hit prime time?

Sadly, I think it would get as much respect as any other pacifist who hates America and is secretly working to overthrow the USG at the expense of her own people. You don't think these ‘analysts’ are going to just grow a conscience because of an obvious agent of radical Islam is trying to propagandize them? ... How about you?

Sadly I agree about Malalai but what Noam talked about Pakistan destabilizing and giving radicals nukes scared the crap out of me. I live to close to NYC. Southern Ontario Canada near Toronto.

I am not overly concerned there because the USA is the best defended nation in the world, we are by far the only super power, and they are Imperialists so they will force the death and destruction to take place elsewhere where they can clean up out  their messes. After all, they have already stolen virtually everything they can from their own people. If radical Islam were doing to attack us, if they were capable or had the wherewithal they would have years ago. Virtually all the ‘terrorists’ our USG is producing here are teams of wan-to-be’s who all are invariable supplied by said same government. One would think in 10 years, the crack elements of al-Qaeda and their masterminds with all their imbedded super cells would learn not to buy their material from the USG, just a thought here. There is a war of terror and it is blossoming in the Middle East. If any nukes go off in America, it will not be from radical Islam ...

 

You might notice i used the word 'seek' in reply number 29. And the reason for that word is because I'm not making any claim as to what they actually 'get' in terms of government. My point is that people the world over who do not have any say in who governs them always have very strong desires to change that situation so that they do have a say in who governs them! This is true regardless of what intricacies you may dig up "through the last 50 years"

I'm also talking about western 'countries' and how they support and give guidance to the developing world and could be doing allot more!

But your trying to whack that on the head with things to do with the self serving foreign policies of individual western governments over the last 50 years or so and the usual propaganda that goes with it. That was never what i was talking about.

In Australia it is actually compulsory to vote, and i do tend to grumble come voting time that i have to vote when there are no options available that i have any great respect of or who inspire me that they will bring real change. Then when i see dirt poor people on TV getting a vote for the first time in their lives (admittedly media staged, depending on the show) and how valuable it is too them, i do feel rather guilty! From my perspective, it is practically impossible for me to grasp in my mind how the right to vote can actually mean so much to people??

I suppose if our country ever suddenly had a remarkable leader appear.... similarly to Obama (in the beginning) i might actually feel something inside about it?? and actually be excited to vote???

But remarkable leaders is another important aspect of real change for a nation. This is why the world remembers the names of people such as Gandhi or Nelsen Mandela, and many others throughout history! So this then begs the question? Can a struggling nation such as Afghanistan recover without having its own Gandhi or it's own Nelsen Mandela? And such a person, if there is one, will be identified by the population, no one else! So i just hope the Coalition forces are listening, if not then it is a total waste of time.

I was quoting post #37 not #29??? The problem is that there is an accepted universal (world) view and then there is the USG (American) view.  Neither the people of Iraq nor their government asked the USG for help on destroying their country. The USG didn’t even knock on the door … they just started bombing. What makes you think we (USG) has any right whatsoever to determine world policy and why are we entitled to decide the internal affairs of someone else’s country? An open mind would ask these type questions. A closed mind does not need these things answered because they think they already know.
 
The words communism, socialism and now terrorism have been redefined for us (PC) and many believed what they were told. As a child, I can still remember the nuke drills we trained at, because we were told it was imminent … those commie bastards … it never came. I do not care what kind of government you think we have, but it and every other government bears various degrees of socialism … it cannot be prevented (N. Korea, maybe).  I do not know how you can pick up a newspaper and think we have something good here, just me.

We are fighting “The War on Terror” … well, where is all that taking place? Not here that’s for sure … unless we count all the rights we as Americans have given up, humm… We (for our protection) cannot take a bottle of baby formula on a plane … yet we have open borders that the USG is required by law to defend (for our real protection) and they not only refuse to do so, they legally attack any state that tries to uphold the law. Border control has nothing to do with immigration… All this crap is the USG in action.

As far as propaganda is concerned then consider this. There were no WMD’s in Iraq and there was no al-Qaeda connection. There was no ‘yellow cake’ and no nuclear activity at all. The embargo had worked if Bush, Rice and Powel are to believed (statements they made in the first months of the Bush admiration) and Saddam has been unable to restore his military prowess at all, that what he had was in bad repair, etc. They all stated that Iraq/Saddam were of no threat to their neighbors or the world.  Amazing how these conditions could change in a few months don’t you think? So if you do not use the word “OIL”, maybe you can explain how we justified all the death and destruction in Iraq … because I cannot. But the word propaganda sure seems to fit.

There had to be WMDs in Iraq. The USG tortured people into admitting it. 

Ohh I know. The secret railroad smuggled them all into Iran. 

I like Mystikmind because; well most just want to harangue and Mystik comes across as sincere, to me.

We knew where all their military installations were, their palaces, bunkers, storage depots, oil infrastructure and any other place someone might want to destroy … But we did not know where all the nuke stuff was at. Looking back, I remember all those reports on mobile chemical and biological labs with pictures and specs. And many other things that never turned up. Now we have had 8 years to rape Iraq and try to discover establish something to justify this action and they still haven’t been able to. I just wonder how many more years and deaths (ours and theirs) it will take the blind USG followers … to just look things over in view of what we know to be true today. Just doesn't seem like a difficult task.

I had said allot more about Iraq etc etc in some other thread/forum but i cannot find it? I thought i might have been you BoobzTwo who i was discussing with? I made some point about how America needs to learn to sit back and let the world community experience the consequences of its decisions, be they good or bad? This is in the context of the reason given to us by the USG to Invade Iraq the second time. The world community chose to leave him in power after the first round, therefore the world community is responsible for whatever  Sadam may or may not do from that day forward. And it is the world communities responsibility to form a consensus in response to treaty violations.

But when it comes to a situation where an aggressor, in this case Iraq, is defeated and put under restrictive treaty, when you have that situation, everyone remembers the restrictive treaties put on Germany after WW1 and what happened when those treaties were not enforced!

But hindsight is a wonderful thing and the reality is, there are precious few wars we did not start that we should have started - Hitler being the only real exception i can think of? Of all the other dictators around the world that have posed a threat in modern times, whom we did not go to war with, in all those cases hindsight has proven the right choice was not to go to war.

 

But there is one other issue that confounds me? Wars that the west initiates or gets involved in on humanitarian grounds? There is Somalia, Serbia, probably a few i forget and now Libya. I was quite surprised to see how quickly the world community pounced on Gadafi when large numbers of civilians started getting wiped out? And what makes Somalia or Serbia or Lybia different to civilians getting wiped out in North Korea and the west does not invade? I'm utterly confused??

Hehe, Bullies don't start fights with people that will kick there ass.

Also you should look up how many democratically elected leaders were "removed" by the US and installed a dictator that was trade friendly to them.

Start here http://www.tomveatch.com/dictatorships.html and do a little research at the local library.

Humm ... at what point in our / your discussions did Iraq become the aggressor, just asking?

The world community did not have the authority to invade another country or they might have. Besides, Bush 1 was not as stupid as his son and realized the likely outcome. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the two had this discussion. Geeze … let’s just blame the world community for the actions of the USG, don’t work for me.

Every war ever fought by the American Government was a war of humanitarianism and freedom and democracy. American diplomacy has changed little. Our expansion west was nothing but an ethnic cleansing of the natives. And the Louisiana Purchase neglected to discuss the hundreds of tribes that had lived there for who knows how long. Yep … ethnic cleansing again. I think this was all to educate the savages and force European civility and culture on them. Democracy USG style is never a good thing to be on the receiving end of and is always costly in lives and property. Then of course, we had to teach the Mexicans how costly it was to get between the USG and the west coast. Yep, ethnic cleansing, democratic style. So we stole their land too and kicked them off, just because. If one is inclined to go back in time, well you might be surprised at what the USG has kept out of the school books … but not the archives and reliable records.

Do not tryto come up with all the answers at one time ... you just need to start somewhere and just follow where that leads you. Believe me, nobody can make much sense of all the messes in the world, you and I included.

Before I got too involved in Iraq, I did a lot of research on south and middle America. As I read through your list, well imagine my surprise ... I had investigated many of them, go figure. But there is just so much information on the internet; I don't think anyone needs to separate themselves from their popcorn and chips. I think they just have to have the desire and the constitution to question the status-quo and to be prepared for the results.