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And you decide to hire the guy that ruined the 20-year old Civilization franchise???

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And you decide to hire the guy that ruined the 20-year old Civilization franchise???

from Elemental Forums

Dear FrogBoy,

I have owned most of your titles since GalCiv1. I enjoyed your creations thoroughly. Now, I was about to buy Elemental after reading how much better it became with patch 1.1. I wanted to buy Elemental because the lead designer of Civilization 5 ruined my civ experience after 20 years of loyal support.

Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches. I know of many that were thinking along the same lines, and were about to put money into Elemental to run away from the monster that this "lead designer" created and that is not true to the succesful principles that made Civilization the best franchise ever.

With this move, I think you lost a huge amount of potential sales that were about to happen, Brad. I'm sorry. Good luck, you will need it now.

 

Regards,

elemental
790,078 views 217 replies
Reply #151 from Stardock Forums Top

I hate myself for dignifying this thread with a response but I'm going to do it anyway for Frogboy's sake.

Adding two well respected managers is a very good thing.  It will help development in many ways.  Getting these particular two people on board at Stardock is a coup that will significantly improve the company. 

It has been a long time since a lone programmer working in a garage could deliver a AAA product.  As much as I love Spiderweb Software and other indie developers, if you want to play at the AAA level, you need a big staff, a lot of time and money, and a very good management team.  Good managers are hard to find, especially in gaming.  Gaming doesn't pay as well as a lot of the alternatives.  Kael is a great example of this.  Getting him to ditch his (most likely much better paying) enterprise job to pursue his game design hobby full time is great for Stardock, as is getting a senior person from Firaxis. 

Stardock does games for love, not money.  Financially, I strongly suspect that Stardock would be better off devoting its resources elsewhere.  I doubt their return on investment for gaming is anything like as good as for their other products.  However, they have a solid enough set of non-gaming products that Brad can afford to indulge his love of games and we, the gaming community, are the lucky recipients of that passion. 

The fact that there are threads on the forums talking about how bad these hires are is an example of the gaping disconnect between popular perception and the reality of development.  I don't know what to say that will change anyone's mind, but I do encourage people to read more about the development process before flaming.

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Reply #152 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting brycex99, reply 150
Domicron,

You're just linking me to the 1 mostly negative review I've found myself. That doesn't mean it's "right" but that it just conforms to your opinion of Civ 5, so I'm not quite sold on the hate yet.

It isn't just in reviews that I've heard good things about it either, but actual players that have enjoyed the game. I'm not one of those guys that just trolls Metacritic and buys any game that is 90 and up, I generally like to get a variety of opinions before purchasing a game. Some of my favorite games, or most memorable moments have been from poorly received games that I'm later shocked to find out were poorly received!  I kinda feel like this is what's happening but reversed.  A couple of guys didn't like Civ 5 that much, and are on a quest to disparage the game and the name of Jon Shafer after finding out quite a lot of people enjoyed the game.  Generally if someone has to throw out foreboding prophecy about how "so many gamers" are going to abandon something, it's usually their way of trying to justify their opinion, and isn't based on fact. My guess is that Elemental sales will continue to increase, and the 3 guys that didn't like Civ 5 are going to make a statement and not buy it. That's usually how these things pan out.

 

In any case, Time is the one and only relentless judge. Time will tell. Even if it does sound strange to you and others, I truly hope you are right and I am wrong. But then again, it's only a stupid game. I just would like to see Stardock make more and better, and this hire puts a doubt on that from my perspective. Yell whatever you want, insult, I don't care... Time will tell. What I can tell you is that the amount of discomformism from Civ5 is much more than 3 guys, believe it or not, and the name of the Lead is unevitably attached to the result.

But then again... it's only a stupid game.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #153 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow... There's alot of vitrol here toward this guy. Honestly from what it sounds like he was doing that might just be too much to realisticly put on one guy. Maybe he couldn't quite pull it off, I don't know. I never played civ 5. But regardless even if he made a few mistakes doesn't make him an epic failure at game design or that he doesn't have alot of talent. To me it from what I've heard civ 5 had alot of great design ideas and interesting new mechanics, some of which flopped in execution and others of which gave the AI trouble (fortunately we have froggy to make our AI awesome). Overall it seems like people need to take a breath and think about what they are thinking (lol). In any case if you don't want to buy the game because Brad brought on some guy you don't like that's up to you. But I don't understand why anyone else really cares to read your complaining. Overall I say meh, and I apologize to Jon for the crazies. I don't know you but I don't think you deserve this...

Reply #154 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting MattSan, reply 112



Quoting Rune_74,
reply 110
I'm beginning to notice it is the same guys that have the most insane reaction in these threads...coincidence??


What would be even more telling would be to look up their age.  I think there would be a trend there.  Like younger members of the audience who haven't lived through three decades of game development from the Atari 2600, to the C64, all the way to present consoles.

They started at the console end.

Nuff said.

 

Edit: Now wheres my asbestos suit.

haha, I remember my atari 2600.  I loved that thing... I literally had to beg my mom for a year to get a 5200...

Reply #155 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Valkrionn, reply 122

of the project then the "failure" is partly his. It doesn't matter how large or small the percentage of said failure attributed to the designer it still exists. If the designer knows he cannot fulfill his responsibilty toward a project then the designer should leave before the product launches. That is unless the designer doesn't really have a problem with the higher-ups or the rest of the team..........in which case he-most-certainly-is-to-blame.

Of course people can change......and everyone always deserves a s


 

Of course some blame goes to everyone involved. My point is that attributing the lion's share of the blame to people who more than likely had very little to do with the issues is ridiculous. And saying that he should have left with a partially completed game... No, that really would be worth blaming him for. Instead, he did his utmost best in order to release the game in the best state he could, under whatever restrictions he was subject to.


The ideas in Civ5 were not innately flawed. All the issues attributed to 1upt could be fixed via careful balancing (and possibly the addition of a hardcap on units, so production costs can be dropped significantly), as with the rest of the game's issues. Go back and actually read Jon's explanation for joining Stardock, and Brad's responses in this thread... There are very good reasons many game developers would jump at a chance to join a studio that is independent from publishers.


God knows I would. I've already promised myself I will never work for EA, at the very least.

be careful saying things like that.  I have a buddy who absolutely hated microsoft when he was younger.  he applied for internships at apple, loved linux/opensource/etc etc.  guess where he works now?

 

Reply #156 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Domicron, reply 138
cross posting because I think everyone should read this.

 

RPS: OK. So we’re nearly there! How did that end up becoming lead designer?

JS: Well the thing about design at Firaxis is that it’s fairly unique compared to design at other companies. Most companies have a lot of specialised designers, so for an RPG you’d have quest designers and narrative designers, and area designers and maybe a lead designer that organises them all. The way it works at Firaxis is that there is a designer, and he is also the gameplay programmer who programs all the gameplay rules, and he also programs all the AI.

RPS: Even for the more recent Civilizations? There’s one guy doing the core of the programming?

JS: Yeah. The thing is, that’s always how Sid Meier’s done it. Firaxis is his company, and that’s just the model that we use. The games have been successful, and it’s the only way that we know.

RPS: So one of the bigger reasons why you were made lead designer is because you know both sides. Programming and design.

JS: Yes. Which is becoming more common, but to be proficient enough in programming to handle all the gameplay rules, you have to be fairly experienced. We had other designers at Firaxis who were senior to me, but they weren’t programmers or they hadn’t played Civ. It’s such a specialised role. Our teams are getting bigger now, so on Civilization V I didn’t program all the AI. Only about half. We had a combat programmer doing combat AI, and a programmer doing the AI for the workers and explorers, but I programmed all the game rules and the diplomatic and economic AI.

Honestly, I think this is a big reason why a lot of games aren’t as good. The vision-holder isn’t working directly on the game, he’s just saying “Hey! Please do this and make it work like this.” And it works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn’t.

how about a link to the rest of that article?  I don't have it handy here, but I read it the other day.  he later on goes into a bit more detail about which specific areas he personally designed.  for example, somebody else was lead for the much-maligned ai. 

Reply #157 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting brycex99, reply 141
Okay, this is kinda confusing to me... Civ 5 has been out for awhile now right?  Thing is, I've only heard good things about it.  Where is all this Civ 5 hate coming from?  I actually haven't played the game myself so I have no way to judge, but is it just a few people that loved Civ 4, so no matter how Civ 5 played it was going to be bashed by these people? Or was it one of those.. 2 months later people suddenly realized they actually DON'T like it?

It doesn't make sense to me, because pretty much everyone I know that played it has liked it, and most reviews have been favorable towards it.  Suddenly Jon Shafer is "the guy that ruined everything"?  Did I miss something?

generally speaking, hardcore civ4 fans dislike/hate civ5 because it's not as complicated.  people who were monarch players in civ4 are now immortal players in civ5, and anybody who could succeed at emperor+ in civ4 typically dominates civ5 deity in short order.  some of the true "fanatics" at civfanatics, probably 30-40 of them anyway, have taken it upon themselves to unleash a vendetta against firaxis/shafer for "ruining their beloved game".  doesn't matter that they put down civ4 years ago, civ5 wasn't what they wanted so they're pissed.

however, civ3 fans tend to love civ5, as do most of the more "casual" gamer crowd, aka the console generation.  also, people (like me) who weren't elite civ 4 players but just played it to have fun seem to enjoy civ5 much more.  the civ series in general just evokes extremely strong emotions in people b/c the franchise has been so successful for so long.

Reply #158 from Stardock Forums Top

I belong to the ones who wanted to buy the game, but have been halted by all the negative feedbacks about it being basically unfinished, buggy and not involving.

As I have read that the lead developer of Civ V has been hired, my first thought has been “my God, I hope he doesn’t make the same mistakes with Elemental”. Yes, I have been playing Civ since the first title, more than 25 years back, and I have been somehow disappointed by Civ V: after a few months trying to get involved with Civ V, I now find myself playing with my friends Civ IV…

I am not judging Jon Shafer since I don’t know him, and as someone has written, developing a game is definitely not a one man job. But as a turn-based strategy fan who has been waiting years for the sequel of Master of Magic, I am hoping that Elemental can become, if not the official, at least the moral sequel of the epic MoM – and Civ IV looks a much better title to learn from than its partly disappointing sequel.

The best of my wishes to Jon and all the development team: I really hope to be playing, 6 months from now, the fantastic game that Elemental has the potentials to become.


Reply #159 from Elemental Forums Top

hey OP do you think he would jump ship so quickly if the game was made exactly the way he wanted it to be and go to a company like SD where he would obviously have alot more free reign over his projects, answerable only to Froggy poo?

Reply #160 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting bryanw1995, reply 157

Quoting brycex99, reply 141Okay, this is kinda confusing to me... Civ 5 has been out for awhile now right?  Thing is, I've only heard good things about it.  Where is all this Civ 5 hate coming from?  I actually haven't played the game myself so I have no way to judge, but is it just a few people that loved Civ 4, so no matter how Civ 5 played it was going to be bashed by these people? Or was it one of those.. 2 months later people suddenly realized they actually DON'T like it?

It doesn't make sense to me, because pretty much everyone I know that played it has liked it, and most reviews have been favorable towards it.  Suddenly Jon Shafer is "the guy that ruined everything"?  Did I miss something?

generally speaking, hardcore civ4 fans dislike/hate civ5 because it's not as complicated.  people who were monarch players in civ4 are now immortal players in civ5, and anybody who could succeed at emperor+ in civ4 typically dominates civ5 deity in short order.  some of the true "fanatics" at civfanatics, probably 30-40 of them anyway, have taken it upon themselves to unleash a vendetta against firaxis/shafer for "ruining their beloved game".  doesn't matter that they put down civ4 years ago, civ5 wasn't what they wanted so they're pissed.

however, civ3 fans tend to love civ5, as do most of the more "casual" gamer crowd, aka the console generation.  also, people (like me) who weren't elite civ 4 players but just played it to have fun seem to enjoy civ5 much more.  the civ series in general just evokes extremely strong emotions in people b/c the franchise has been so successful for so long.

 

Personally, I thought Civ III was the worst of the bunch. Perhaps that's why I dislike ciV so much.

The immersion factor isn't there at all for me and it is plain boring

I think the warmongers in general like ciV but the builders certainly do not.

Just didn't do it for me.

C'est la vie.

Reply #161 from Stardock Forums Top

it's funny, I did a OCC game yesterday and enjoyed the heck out of it b/c I got to play "builder" in it.  Much like civ4 was for me, I enjoy managing smaller/builder games more but I typically am more likely to win when I aggressively conquer everyone in sight.  Unfortunately, killing everyone in sight has always been a stronger high-level strategy in civ than playing bob the builder (as many of prefer).  now that I've gotten the warmonger bug out of my system I think I'll try for some smaller/more focused games with a mid/late game expansion when possible going forward (unless I randomly get greece or the mongols...).

Reply #163 from Elemental Forums Top

Jon Shafer is the devil. No! He is the devil's more sinister grandmother, who taught the devil everything he knows. For those who might argue otherwise, here is a short list of bad things about Jon Shafer:

  • If it weren't for Jon Shafer, Global Warming would be a lovely term about fairer weather.
  • Chuck Norris hates Jon Shafer.
  • Jon Shafer invented usary.
  • George Lucas was threatened by Jon Shafer on pain of anal rape, to write Gungans and Jar Jar Binks into Star Wars.
  • Jon Shafer invented ball cancer.
  • FOX News' main fact checker and editor is Jon Shafer.
  • Jon Shafer is not good with spatial relations.
  • Toe-stubbing was invented by Jon Shafer.
  • Jon Shafer has been tested on animals.
  • Jon Shafer has 10 personalities, each one identical to the other, but with different facial hair.
  • Only 2 out of 10 Jon Shafers recommend Jon Shafer.
  • Jon Shafer is called Jon Shafer, a term made unpopular, offensive and sexually dysfunctional by Jon Shafer.
  • When Jon Shafer reads this list, a tear falls from one eye at the pride in his achievements.

 

For more sound facts about Jon Shafer, just PM me.

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Reply #164 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Istari, reply 163
Jon Shafer is the devil. No! He is the devil's more sinister grandmother, who taught the devil everything he knows. For those who might argue otherwise, here is a short list of bad things about Jon Shafer:


If it weren't for Jon Shafer, Global Warming would be a lovely term about fairer weather.
Chuck Norris hates Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer invented usary.
George Lucas was threatened by Jon Shafer on pain of anal rape, to write Gungans and Jar Jar Binks into Star Wars.
Jon Shafer invented ball cancer.
FOX News' main fact checker and editor is Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is not good with spatial relations.
Toe-stubbing was invented by Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer has been tested on animals.
Jon Shafer has 10 personalities, each one identical to the other, but with different facial hair.
Only 2 out of 10 Jon Shafers recommend Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is called Jon Shafer, a term made unpopular, offensive and sexually dysfunctional by Jon Shafer.
When Jon Shafer reads this list, a tear falls from one eye at the pride in his achievements.

 

For more sound facts about Jon Shafer, just PM me.

 

You could turn that into a ridiculous request to make a new unit/spell/vistory type: And the sovereign create Jon Shafer?

Reply #165 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 7
Maybe we should reserve judgment until we actually see what is going to be done with the game, kinda blowing your nerd-rage load a little soon on this.  The guy is clearly talented and experienced.

Lord Xia is the voice of reason here?

Has anyone seen War, Death, Pestilence, or Plague yet?

Reply #166 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Istari, reply 163
Jon Shafer is the devil. No! He is the devil's more sinister grandmother, who taught the devil everything he knows. For those who might argue otherwise, here is a short list of bad things about Jon Shafer:


If it weren't for Jon Shafer, Global Warming would be a lovely term about fairer weather.
Chuck Norris hates Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer invented usary.
George Lucas was threatened by Jon Shafer on pain of anal rape, to write Gungans and Jar Jar Binks into Star Wars.
Jon Shafer invented ball cancer.
FOX News' main fact checker and editor is Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is not good with spatial relations.
Toe-stubbing was invented by Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer has been tested on animals.
Jon Shafer has 10 personalities, each one identical to the other, but with different facial hair.
Only 2 out of 10 Jon Shafers recommend Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is called Jon Shafer, a term made unpopular, offensive and sexually dysfunctional by Jon Shafer.
When Jon Shafer reads this list, a tear falls from one eye at the pride in his achievements.
 

For more sound facts about Jon Shafer, just PM me.

I didn't want to post in this thread, I really really didn't... but damn this was just plain laugh out loud funny.

And now since I have gone ahead and posted, I like Civ5.  Like it a lot.  Yes, it has problems but I've never played any game that didn;t have some problems, but regardless I like it.  And I like Elemental.  So Jon Schafer, regardless of all the horror and havok that is attributed to you, I welcome you to our lovely friendly little family.

Don't f*** it up!!  (just kidding, couldn't resist...)

Reply #167 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Winnihym, reply 165



Quoting Lord Xia,
reply 7
Maybe we should reserve judgment until we actually see what is going to be done with the game, kinda blowing your nerd-rage load a little soon on this.  The guy is clearly talented and experienced.



Lord Xia is the voice of reason here?

Has anyone seen War, Death, Pestilence, or Plague yet?

Yea...that is scary...

Reply #168 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Istari, reply 163
Jon Shafer is the devil. No! He is the devil's more sinister grandmother, who taught the devil everything he knows. For those who might argue otherwise, here is a short list of bad things about Jon Shafer:


If it weren't for Jon Shafer, Global Warming would be a lovely term about fairer weather.
Chuck Norris hates Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer invented usary.
George Lucas was threatened by Jon Shafer on pain of anal rape, to write Gungans and Jar Jar Binks into Star Wars.
Jon Shafer invented ball cancer.
FOX News' main fact checker and editor is Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is not good with spatial relations.
Toe-stubbing was invented by Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer has been tested on animals.
Jon Shafer has 10 personalities, each one identical to the other, but with different facial hair.
Only 2 out of 10 Jon Shafers recommend Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is called Jon Shafer, a term made unpopular, offensive and sexually dysfunctional by Jon Shafer.
When Jon Shafer reads this list, a tear falls from one eye at the pride in his achievements.

 

For more sound facts about Jon Shafer, just PM me.

 

qft, esp the tear part...  I saw it happen and am willing to testify!

Reply #169 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 147
I think when historians of the future look back at this time, they will come to the conclusion that no one else in history is as self-important, or as indignant, as PC gamers with no life.

Nah... you're forgetting politicians, lawyers, and teen pop-stars.

People, I've been ridiculously critical of Civ V.  If I'm happy about this move and have full confidence in Jon's position and the team Brad put together - then for goodness sakes you should have a little.  Seriously, I've had epic melt-downs on Civ V, but I can still open my eyes to the future.  And that future looks pretty awesome at Stardock.  Hope you all can see that too despite your anger.

 

Reply #170 from Elemental Forums Top

civ 5 > civ 4 3 2 1

Reply #172 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Istari, reply 163
Jon Shafer is the devil. No! He is the devil's more sinister grandmother, who taught the devil everything he knows. For those who might argue otherwise, here is a short list of bad things about Jon Shafer:


If it weren't for Jon Shafer, Global Warming would be a lovely term about fairer weather.
Chuck Norris hates Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer invented usary.
George Lucas was threatened by Jon Shafer on pain of anal rape, to write Gungans and Jar Jar Binks into Star Wars.
Jon Shafer invented ball cancer.
FOX News' main fact checker and editor is Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is not good with spatial relations.
Toe-stubbing was invented by Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer has been tested on animals.
Jon Shafer has 10 personalities, each one identical to the other, but with different facial hair.
Only 2 out of 10 Jon Shafers recommend Jon Shafer.
Jon Shafer is called Jon Shafer, a term made unpopular, offensive and sexually dysfunctional by Jon Shafer.
When Jon Shafer reads this list, a tear falls from one eye at the pride in his achievements.

 

For more sound facts about Jon Shafer, just PM me.

Nah. I think he is a nice guy.

Just a bad game designer.

Reply #173 from Elemental Forums Top

hope you've got one of these handy...

iam rdy let the flames come :D

Reply #174 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 107

Ironically, Neverwinter Nights was originally going to be released as a set of mod tools only, but Bioware reasonably feared that it wouldn't sell without some sort of campaign, so the single player game was basically thrown together at the last minute using the mod tools they had developed.

Well, that would have been dumb for multiple reasons.  The major one being that without a ready-made game, only modders would have bought it... and then, modders wouldn't have bought it because without a game, there wouldn't have been a community to revolve around it.  It would have been worse than RPGMaker, because at least that crappy tool allowed you to bundle the game in an executable to give to someone who didn't purchase RPGMaker.

Reply #175 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Valkrionn, reply 122


 Of course some blame goes to everyone involved. My point is that attributing the lion's share of the blame to people who more than likely had very little to do with the issues is ridiculous. And saying that he should have left with a partially completed game... No, that really would be worth blaming him for. Instead, he did his utmost best in order to release the game in the best state he could, under whatever restrictions he was subject to.

 

That's what "lead" means.  It means you accept fully all responsibility for a project's success and/or failure.  If you ("the Lead") aren't comfortable with that or with the direction certain project-compromises are taking you then you have the option of doing the RESPONSIBLE thing which is to leave.  I have in my line of work worn a few different hats at times as well and have been project-lead more times than I care to remember.  There were also cases where I refused to be "lead" and others yet where I dumped the role once the "compromises" made it impossible for me to remain responsible to the project in question.  Everyone always has a choice.  That is my only point.  Anyone accepting the role of project-lead and then not fully accepting the failures (if there are any) that come up is simply ducking responsiblity.

Case in point.  Stardock released Elemental unfinished.  Plain and simple (and yes I know the myriad of threads which have beaten this topic to death.....threads I read but stayed silent about because I've always had the utmost respect for Brad and co.).  However......and this is a big however.......I lost some of that respect for Brad when he kept dancing around the point of whether or not he actually broke a promise made in the GBOR.  Sorry brad, but you should have simply said "YES" I did break my own GBOR a long long time ago......all the dancing around the bush made me lose faith in your "promises".  A simple IMMEDIATE admission to that fact would have gone a long way in retaining some goodwill with those of us who aren't just simple mindless fanboi-material.

Just sayin.....

O:)