I've played it quite a bit actually.  It felt exactly like Civ 4 with some new factions and some lame random events.  Still had the tech tree crap, still had stacks, archers were overpowered, still had most of the things I hated in Civ 4.  It simply felt like someone put a coat of paint over the game.  Fantasy 4X games simply don't work for the Civ core engine because of the technology/advancement - centric model.  They all feel contrived and tacky.

I don't think you actually played FFH2 very much if you can't see that.  And yes, most people are idiots.

That's a perfectly understandabble opinion, totally different from the post I quoted. Still, I would like to point out that such a deep game cannot be judged by the assets they "stole" (they stole nothing, everything was asked for or free), but from a gameplay perspective. Also, it IS a mod, and many of their choices have been dictaded by that. For example the magic system, Kael actually never liked it so much (iirc) but it had to be done this way because of what assets they had at hand and the possibilities of the AI.

And you're wrong. On both points

Edit: also, why do you play a mod for a game you do not like? That would be like playing the original fallout mod for NWN and complaying it is "just the same hack & slash". How could the FFH2 team address the stack of doom problem, for example...? By forcing one unit per tile? I think you need some perspective over it.

If you're able to do better... Just start modding! I'll be the first to praise your work if it deserves it.

[sorry for the double post]

Yes FFH2 was great, maybe someday he will make one for this game wooHOO. Looking forward to it, all im saying that most ppls are selfish and hardheaded that want something on their parts, maybe they dont want their helps at all. But i rather have something that is nice and well written to make it masterpiece than crappy game that is unfinish. I wouldnt besurprised we will pay even more to get this game full sets of dungeons, races as well another expansion.

Sorry, but no. From the mod description for one of the old releases (http://civilization4.filefront.com/file/Fall_from_Heaven_2;64936):

Nothing was asked for, everything was taken without permission. Notice how he says all "unknowingly" contributed.

You absolutely *can* and *should* judge the professionalism of a mod by everything, not just gameplay. Ripping off other people's work without so much as asking them does not deserve any form of praise.

Edit: Randomly hit one of the sites he linked to:

http://www.bromart.com/contact.html has this gem:

Certainly not "free", wouldn't you say? The current "credits" page has 3 "used with permission" listed, out of 13.

You just laid out exactly why FFH2 sucks.  You try to rationalize it's shortcomings by saying, "well it's just a mod, you can't be so harsh".  -Yes- -I- -can-.

A lot of people are comparing the FFH2 "mod" to a standalone game like Elemental, so I am judging it in the same way.  It is inferior to Elemental because it feels like a slapped on candy-coating to Civ 4.  That in itself, makes it inferior.

If Kael was such a great modder, why couldn't he fix the stack of doom problem?  Why couldn't he change the way technology works?  Why did he have to steal from other graphic sources to make it?  He PIGGYBACKED on others to be successful.  IMO that is a sign of a weak designer.

I just heard the FFH2 stand-alone game was cancelled, guess Kael's "great game idea" can't stand with the big boys afterall can it?

Whatever you may feel about FFH2, I have a really hard time thinking that you could possibly feel that that Elemental is a better game.  I have played the hell out of both, and hope Elemental rises and changes like FFH2 did, but this game so far is so buggy and unbalanced, and without even a drop of story depth compared to FFH2.  This game should try and live up to not only MoM, but FFH2.  Right now, it's nowhere close.

Fine, let's compare "FFH2" with Elemental.  Go download the FFH2 mod, extract it to your desktop and try running it.  Oh wait, you cant?  Well, why not?  Did the designer do a boo-boo and forget to include an executable file?

I don't ever want to hear somebody use the Acronym, "FFH2" again without saying Civ4+FFH2 because that's what it is.  In fact, it's probably 95% Civ 4 and 4% FFH2, and 1% Guild Wars.  When comparing FFH2 with Elemental, Elemental is light years ahead because, to begin with, I can actually run the damn thing without ripping off other people's work.

Ok, then I'll back off and wait what you'll be able to produce as soon as you start modding Elemental. Please, give us a nice FPS out of it, I know you'll be able to address all the shortcomings of the Engine!

People compare FFH to commercial games because it is FUN and free, while many games are paid for and sucks. But thinking that a team of a dozen of so modders should give you the level of polish of a commercial game is just... well strange. Also you didn't answer my question. If you do not like Civ, why do you play such a mod?

Also explain this because, maybe it's my fault (I'm not an english speaker) but I cannot understand your point. FFH is a mod. You cannot make it a standalone game because, you know... Firaxis would be quite pissed...

And then a question (a serious one, no sarcasm), if FFH "stole" all those images, why no one has ever complained about that? I would certainly if someone stole my work... Or are there some legal issues I'm not aware of?

Cant we all get along lol

I gave it a fair shake and came away with the realization that all the hype was just a lot of hot-air.
 

Somebody just did complain about it.  There may very well be legal issues, but they are only good for anything if they are taken to civil court in a suit.  Many publishers won't do this because, A. It comes off as petty to pick on the little guy, or B. They like the free publicity.

That's not the point though.  The point is, is that he used somebody's work to make himself look good.  Not just Guild Wars, but Civ 4.  This seriously damages the comparison to a game like Elemental which was built from the ground up with it's own engine and it's own assets.  I'm just putting things into perspective here when people try to heap their praise on Kael when 95% of the game wasn't even done by him.

Errr.... you know that Kael was HIRED by firaxis to do a scenario for BtS? Since they recognized that the guy made them gain money I wouldn't say he "stole" from them.

Also, again, they're modders, they did this in their spare time and asked no money for it, they actually discouraged PayPal donation in favor of humanitarian donations. Yes they made all that to look "good" and, you know? they managed to do that... They are a bunch of good peoples doing this for nothing more than other peoples sake.

The art thing is a serious issue though, one that I was not aware of and I'll surely try and document myself about it...

So the main complaint about FFH2 is that they cribbed some artworks off the internet?

FAIL.

Though it's true, if you didn't like civ4 there's not much reason to think you would like FFH2 either.  It is more than just civ4 with a new coat of paint, but not much more.

I'm not sure what kinds of mods for elemental won't be able to be described in the same way though.

If the artists were bothered by any unknowing contributions, they only needed to send a cease and desist request.  You guys are getting really excited.

Do you jump up and down and scream for their heads every time someone makes a Star Wars mod?

I don't really understand the point of your argument...and they got permission to use the artwork that they used.  They didn't steal it.  They asked the people who have rights to it and were given permission to use it, and if they didn't get permission, they would change the art.  That game has 21 unique nations and several unique races, heroes, and a much deeper backstory.  Right now, it is better than Elemental.  It is more stable, it's magic is more interesting, the game is more balanced, the nations more diverse and the story deeper.  I've sat and read everything they wrote about that mod, all the characters and nations, the backstory is facinating.  What do I know about Elemental?  Titans had a war, and the world is crap, and now some humans can use magic and heal it and some Dark non-humans know dark magic that makes things icky, but the exact same.  I bought the Elemental novel, but haven't got past the first few pages...maybe it will get better. 

FFH2 was a very well done mod for Civ IV. After I had got it I never touched vanilla Civ 4 again.

Unfortunately I disliked many of the basic Civ 4 gameplay decisions. So FFH2 was much more fun than the original game but after some time it too got boring to me.

Nevertheless I think the creators of FFH2 are very talented people and I would like them doing some mod work for Elemental.

Why all the venom for a free mod?  An impressive amount of work went into it, austensibly in someone's spare time, and gave a fresh coat of paint to a good game, complete with lots of lore.  Yet some of you act like you are personally insulted by its very existence.

I mean, seriously.  He didn't commission a graphic artist and instead scavenged artwork?  How audacious!  He used the underlying Civ 4 engine?  The nerve! It's not a standalone?  How dare he!  I for one think he owes us all a personal apology.

You trolls sound like the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.  (OMG I didn't use an original character for my simile!) 

GaelicVigil:  You seem to be grinding an axe here.  I don't know your motivation, but I have seen the method before.  I don't think anything anyone has to say about FfH2 will alter your thinking.  So this post is for those who have never played FfH2, and may never if they put any stock to your words.

For me, FfH2 was a huge improvement over Civ4.  FfH2 amplifies Civ4's replayability.  The mod isn't just about adding new units and giving new names to techs.  The mod increases player decisions many fold.  Civ traits along with religion allow for many many ways to play the game.  The civs are unique and add elements not present in Civ4.  Like a civ which can only build 3-4 cities but can work a 3 tile fat cross vs 2.  Religion in FfH2 goes way beyond being just a dimplomacy modifier like it is in Civ4.  You have religious units and heroes.  And the Armegedon Counter is pure brilliance.  Religion is used to quicken or slow Armegedon.  Other events affect the AC as well.  I've read that Many people share my thought that Civ4's end game is dull.  FfH2's end game is exciting.  There is reason to keep playing.  FfH2 introduces ranged magical attacks.  Theres more but I'm outta time.  I played a great many FfH2 games.  I have yet to exhaust all the possible religion/civ/playstyle combos in FfH2. 

FfH2 is a deeper game than Civ4.  The mod team introduced new gameplay dynamics.  There are features in FfH2 not available in Civ4.  THe team spent a great deal of time modding the game.  They did a fine job indeed!  It is much much more than just a visual flavor mod.  It is a whole new game.  The mod won some big contests with steep competition which included mods for games vastly more popular than Civ.  One contest being a $25,000 first place win... voted on by gamers and industry professionals. 

divvu80, WhiteElk, don't get into an argument with GaelicVigil, just see his posts on other threads to see why. It's likely to get the thread locked.

Back on topic, yeah SD should just give Kael a job. He's the kind of game designer that would have prevented this whole debacle. He's also good at taking input from thousands of people who all want to see their dream mechanic in the game and condensing it down into something consistent playable.

Yeah, I apologize if I come off as rude.  I guess I just take negative criticism of Elemental a little too personally.  Maybe I need a break from the forums for a few days.

Apology accepted (for the rudeness of your first post, all the rest are your opinion, and it is not something you should apologize for...)!

I speak only for myself, obviously...

If only J.R.R. Tolkien had accepted Kael's help... 

I played FFH2 just a couple of times.  It was fun, but man oh man the crappy ai killed it for me.  As soon as I saw a civ with well over 200 of those 'ritualist' units in their coastal cities, and not a single ship, I was pretty much done.  

The demon faction never even moved the strongest unit it started with, it's demon hero, not even while I was walking around it razing their cities.

The elves sent a buttload of ships over and blockaded my coast when I didn't even have frigs yet.  That was good, but then I researched frigs, knocked out the blockade, then sent my ships to return the favor.  Their coast was blockaded the rest of the game.  I didn't even have to replace a single ship. 

A terrible ai can ruin any game I guess...   I never did get the feel of a 4x fantasy game from that mod though, it was simply a fantasy version of civ, which would've been fine with me if the ai could actually play.

There are modmods which address some AI issues apparently, though I'm no expert on them.

I played some Wildmana, and found it to be entertaining, but the problem I have with FFH2 is that my system is ancient (more than 5 years old now) and so late game I get a lot of crashes.

I dunno, the early game is the fun part to me anyway

Wildmana significantly improves the AI of the original FFH2. In fact, I believe Kael used some of Sephi's AI work for some of the later patches for it. The AI can actually be a challenge in it. But still, with all the modding, Civ IV's AI wasn't really meant to handle some of the stuff FFH2 throws at it. There's only so much modding can do.