Frogboy Frogboy

Labor Day notes

Labor Day notes

It is great to be back to the land of high speed Internet connections. 

The team got v1.07 out this week which addresses some of the issues reported by players. There’s a lot more to do of course.  Here’s a few notes on what’s on our plate right now:

  • Enabling multiplayer. Why isn’t it up now? Because the same problems that would cause a user a problem in single player would happen in MP too except now there are now multiple human beings involved which increases the frustration.  I’m going to look at the response to v1.07 this weekend and see where things stand.
  • Improving the AI Part 1. There is a little (lot) of confusion on the AI.  Minor factions aren’t supposed to build. They’re just there.  I think we’ll have to change that to either make it more obvious that they don’t do anything (like change the style of city to be more obvious) or have them behave more like major factions. 
  • Improving the AI Part 2. I am hoping to be able to get my AI updates into v1.08 (next week) to make the major faction AI substantially more capable. The basic problem with the AI is that a lot of data changes were made very late in development (values for weapons and armor and how much various improvements do) that heavily altered the AI’s evaluation of what was “worth” constructing or how much it needed to protect its sovereign and such. This is the kind of thing that will have to be addressed – for starters.
  • Game Mechanic Changes. There are going to be quite a few game mechanic changes based on our own experience and reading on the forums.  Keep posting your suggestions. 
  • Magic System Changes. This is an area that’s going to get a lot of changes. For instance, Essence will become a boolean (true or false). Your mana will come from a global pool of mana that is from the shards. The elemental spell books (earth, air, fire, water) will get moved out of character creation and into the tech tree so that players can determine what spell books they want.  Various spells will gain a mana “maint” rather than using “enchantment slots”. This all brings us to the next part
  • General UI. There are some outstanding posts on the forums with suggestions about the UI that we’re looking at. But generally speaking, we want to eliminate a lot of what I’d say (with the benefit of hindsight) gratuitous complexity (enchantment slots, tile limitations on cities, obscured game mechanics, etc.).  We’ll get very specific with the community as we start to put these in.
  • Performance, Compatibility, Memory.  These three things remain the most troubling and frankly, heart breaking issues.  On a personal note, nothing pains us more than when someone accuses us of “rushing” the game.  The phrase “works on my machine” is not an acceptable excuse. We just blew it on so many levels that it will require a detailed post-mortem (which I do plan to provide so players, customers, and others can learn from our mistakes in general and my personal mistakes in particular).  When I read the check-in logs, I wince at how specific each “crash” is (“Crash caused by user having 8X AGP card in 4X AGP motherboard with soft lighting turned off when in the unit design window”).  There’s a reason most games license their engines (Civilization and Fallout 3 use Gambryo for instance, other games use Unreal, and so on).   We use our own home grown one “Kumquat” which is proving to have serious teething issues that we are most definitely suffering the consequences for.

There’s a ton more to add here but these are a few of the things on our mind. It’s been, as you can imagine, a horrible horrible couple of weeks.  We’re doing out best to make sure Elemental lives up to its potential which brings me to the final part.

Elemental’s original release schedule was to have the first release (War of Magic – Book 1: Relias) and 2 expansion packs (Book 2: Cerena and Book 3: Magesta). 

What we’re going to do is that for users who own the game by a certain date will get (at least) the first expansion pack for free as a token of our appreciation for hanging in there with us.  As some long-time Stardock gamers can tell you, our expansion packs aren’t minor things. 

Have a good weekend!

680,201 views 265 replies
Reply #201 Top

You mentioned multiplayer - normally when I look at a game I consider that to be an extremely important aspect, but in this case I hope you consider post-poning it until single player works properely. I can't imagine what kind of flak the forums will see if you enabled it and there are more problems with that than there are with single player

 

1.07 fixed most of the performance issues I've had, rendering the game playable and fun for the first time, which is awesome =-)

Reply #202 Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 31
Having Minor Factions act like the Majors (but perhaps not expanding city number, etc, and just build up their one city) sounds great.

The spellbook change is another thing.  It's a very big change.  There's a lot of very big changes.  May I suggest not rushing in and making very big changes piecemeal, but instead take some time (fixing stability and the other things will keep you busy for a while) and consider all the potential very big changes as a group?

Going with Nick on this one. Don't rush head long to throw out the mechanics you have now. Some of them are decent and good "for starters" and just need to be added to and refined.

Chief, I saw you use the words "Gratuitous Complexity"...there's is no Gratuitous Complexity in the game, just a UI that some people can't grasp or that others say doesn't give Enough Information. If anything it needs information and functionality Added to it, not made "less complex". Go slow and think this through from a deep strategy players perspective. Don't "streamline" it, don't "dumb it down", and don't make it "less complex". People aren't saying it's too complex, they're saying it needs to convey more information and function correctly. I can point you to some great ideas in the Elemental Ideas Section on feedback for this :) .

 

Reply #203 Top

Froggy, I know you have been getting alot of flak, I just wanted to let you know I believe in Elemental. So far I have payed for four copys of the game (one for me, and three for my friends). As I have been playing since beta I look at this as beta 1.07. Keep up the fight!

Reply #204 Top

I like all the prompt heads up on issues being worked on. All in all I'm loving the game (when I can keep playing it without a crash) and really look forward to all the content changes and additions. It seems to be like any other game working out it's tweeks. Even the biggest companies release games with bugs it happens. Not to mention it is always impossible to make everyone happy.

Just wanted to say even with the hic ups I like the game alot. I would like to see some more content with the magic system and dynasties. It seems I'm only using a few spells over and over and the others I don't really need to use. I really think the dynasties aspect of the game is great and would like for there to be different ways to raise your children to be more fitting to a roll you would like them to fill (i.e. A melee class, an amazing mage, or a major support for your economy). It would also be great to capture officers or sovereigns and hold them for ransom. But thats just one of the things I really love about this game is that it has so much to build on instead of just being a dead end game.

Reply #205 Top

Minor Factions:


*Kingdoms would want to make them allies (possibly vassals?) while Empire would want to conquer and assimilate them.

*Leaders have unique properties, and once the required dimplomatic steps are taken, i.e. Kingdom makes them vassals/allies or Empire conquers them, the leader of that minor faction becomes a champion with unique qualities in-line with that minor faction's traits.

*As vassals/conquered folk, player gains access to their special buildings and units, ala MoM.

 

Reply #206 Top

Sounds good :-). I've only played one game since the beta sadly but should be back to times where i can sit and happily game away for a few hours in about a week's time :-). Glad to see plenty of patching being done. My big suggestion for minor factions:

 

Thought 1:

Minor should mean No Dynasty imho.

Suppose sovereign death in enemy territory means heirs take over. Minor faction sovereign death in Any territory except within own borders  => minor faction death. No other limits.

 

Thought 2: (I'd really really like to see this!)

The minor factions have an option to trade for marriages (or, without thought 1, another city)  but will Only Do So in exchange for their 'special unit'. If they are wiped out, you lose that unit. If a player conquers them they gain the unit But get a negative diplomacy hit from all other players. Maybe they also lose some diplomatic capital (paying off foreign diplomatis to look the other way perhaps?).Sounds to me like that could result in a lot of interesting diplomacy and skirmishing over minors? :-) Maybe minor territory should also be 'no-mans land'. Factions can skirmish there without a war.

Sound like a good/horrible idea? :-)

Reply #207 Top

About minor factions:

They need to be self sustainable. To be able to function well with just one city.

And that means at lest one golden mine (so they could house defensive army) and maybe some other important resource. It could even be something related to their flavor, and not random.

Reply #208 Top

you guys already put my mind at ease  and this puts it to rest cant wait to see the campaign turn into sumthing decent

Reply #209 Top

Quoting mharmless, reply 179

I see the point you are going for, but I think we're using different assumptions. My assumptions are

1) There will still only be one channeler initially, the sovereign.

2) That by some means the sovereign can designate additional channelers.

3) That as a consequence of boolean essence, the sovereign no longer takes a personal penalty for spreading his essence as his essence is still 'true'.

4) That as a consequence of boolean essence, the unit maximum mana expenditures will be controlled by either some sort of global throttle or perhaps their own wisdom.

I guess it is assumption 3 that is my source of concern. The mana regeneration problems can be fixed without removing the interesting choices about leveling up the sovereign vs protecting him, and deciding which champions are worth investing this precious limited essence resource into. I find this mechanic to be fairly unique and enjoyable.

I think the penalty will be in the new system, too, because, as Frogboy mentioned, some spells will have a maintenance cost instead of using enhancement slots and Imbue Champion should have such a maintenance cost.

Reply #210 Top

oh, on the AI part 1- I'd rather see the minors behave more like majors then the other way around.

 

Just my own preference, maybe this should be poll before proceeding to see what to try first?

 

 

Reply #211 Top

Quoting cephalo, reply 83
I recommend not working super hard on the AI right now beyond putting a few band-aids on the really bad stuff. Activating multiplayer might sound like a super bad idea right now, but multiplayer is the thing that will expose the game rules that will need to change.

If you finalize the AI now, when multiplayer comes around it will be clear that major changes will need to be made, and you'll either be forced to make separate rule sets for single player and multiplayer, or write the AI twice! Multiplayer allows us to examine the game design in detail, and will be the most efficient way to make Elemental the best it can be.

Also, I'm putting the final polish on an actual random map generator for Elemental. I still need to find a good way to place starting locations, but I have some ideas. I hope to be finished over the weekend. So far the results are good.

A statue should be made in your honor, cephalo.  I was a bit disappointed that Frogboy didn't add a random map generator to that list.  It pleases me to see that you have taken up the reins.

As for the AI, I would agree that this should be finalized later, whether multiplayer is activated or not.  The AI needs to make intelligent decisions based upon the game mechanics, and if these are going to be significantly changed, then the AI will need to be updated to reflect those changes. 

But you are right in your assessment that multiplayer games need to be enabled, if not for anything else than to allow us to play games against intelligent opponents.  I also think that some strategies for the AI could be learned from here as well.

 _____

Thanks for the update, Frogboy, and keep up the great work.  Your dedication is appreciated.

As for the spellbooks during character creation, there are some various posts throughout this thread that offer some nice suggestions and alternatives.  One of these is the cost to research spells.  This could be expanded upon.

Personally, I believe sovereign creation needs to offer more varieties of sovereigns, not less.  I think it would be interesting to allow the sovereigns to choose primary, secondary, and tertiary schools.  These can be handled via point buy (primary = 9 points, secondary = 6 points, tertiary = 3 points).  The level which you choose determines the rate in which you research, your casting power, and/or what level spells you can eventually research.  This would be similar to a simplified "spellbook selection" that MoM offered during sovereign creation.

In addition to above, all schools could be bought for 21 points (saving you 3 points).  This would grant you one primary school, 2 secondary schools, and 1 tertiary school.  These would be determined by the school you choose.  I.e. if you spent the 20 points and chose Fire as your primary school, Earth and Air would be secondary schools, and Water would be your tertiary school.

Anyhow, this is just my simplified opinion and could be explored deeper if it proved a concept that accumulates inteterest.

Reply #212 Top

Changes all sound pretty good, especially the magic love! 

However, i'm still waiting for the 64bit version, i know its going to take a while, but it would be nice!

 

Otherwise, stability is still the major bugbear, especially the ATI Windows 7 crashes and Out of Memory errors that plague the game...

Reply #213 Top

 

I was pretty excited about the game since I missed Master of Magic for many years

Since my copy of the game has not arrive yet, I read Gamespot review

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/elementalwarofmagic/review.html

 

It is scoring at 4.0 of 10.0, honestly I am a bit sad with that, but it is valuable / worth to read.

Given my visit to this game forum since early of the years, I trust Elemental team for outstanding service.

 

Is OK, I will wait for another 2 months to stabilize / polish before I Install it,

Just want to say that Demigod is also many bugs at the time of release, and Stardock able to handle that, yes you can. 

 

My only concern is a game "brand" take times to build up, but can be destroyed in a short while, probably that's the reason

we keep on complaining Starcraft 2 delay I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #214 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 37
Minor factions will focus on building one kick-arse metropolis but they won't expand.

Oh, yes !! Transform those minor factions into extremely* effective regional Powers -- somewhat like Iran threatens its geopolitical region without being able to project military forces outside of it.

* > Of course, that "extreme" value would have to be scaled in relationship with the A.I.-difficulty level the gamer defines when he selects his rivals, in the pre-game, faction setup.

Reply #215 Top

Quoting Arkenor, reply 3
As I think I've mentioned before, the single map that comprises the current "campaign" is not what most people would consider a campaign. It was an evenings play. I do hope that you aren't thinking that that was reasonable, and that the next books, whether they're free or not, will be significantly more substantial.

People care about the campaign? I've never even started it up..
I'd be more happy if they put ALL their effort and new content into the main game, the main custom game / multiplayer mode, since thats what we'll play the most anyway.

Otherwise i'd be as dissapointed as i was with the Anno expansions, which basically added a few new scenarios, but almost nothing new to the actual main gameplay. I'd hate to see Elemental do the same mistake. Mission packs should be mission packs, not labeled as Expansions. Expansions should severely expand upon the gameplay features, not just add a 1-run scenario / campaign map.

Reply #216 Top

Well, what they call "campaign" is more a scenario in my book. A single mission that could be part of a campaign.

But ultimately it's wasted effort. How often would I play this one static mission over and over?
I think - once.

The GalCiv franchise (and MoM) has always been all about the random/skirmish maps. That's where the replayability is.

But well - it says "campaign" on the box so there has to be at least a lip service given to that. *shrug*

Reply #217 Top

Quoting Baleurion, reply 215
I'd be more happy if they put ALL their effort and new content into the main game, the main custom game / multiplayer mode, since thats what we'll play the most anyway.

I agree 110%

Reply #218 Top

Quoting Cryptomancer, reply 214

Quoting Frogboy, reply 37Minor factions will focus on building one kick-arse metropolis but they won't expand.
Oh, yes !! Transform those minor factions into extremely* effective regional Powers -- somewhat like Iran threatens its geopolitical region without being able to project military forces outside of it.

* > Of course, that "extreme" value would have to be scaled in relationship with the A.I.-difficulty level the gamer defines when he selects his rivals, in the pre-game, faction setup.

 

Hell. Yeah.

 

I want a reason to ally with them, or even better a reason to not steamroll them at the first opportunity.

Also, how about expanding a bit their shopping list, maybe adding something unique for each of them?

Or giving MF special mercenary troops that you can hire if you're in good relations with them?

 

Anything to make them more "interactive".

Reply #219 Top

Quoting 2dme, reply 212

However, i'm still waiting for the 64bit version, i know its going to take a while, but it would be nice!

That can wait. [..and I have an x64 system :)] Crash & bug fixes/gameplay enhancements >>> everything else as it is now.

Reply #220 Top

Suppose sovereign death in enemy territory means heirs take over. Minor faction sovereign death in Any territory except within own borders => minor faction death. No other limits.

Sovereign death in ANY territory means an heir takes over.  If you don't want them to die, you can just reload a save - but if you want some realism and dynastic shuffling then let them die wherever they are..

Reply #221 Top

I am not sure how I feel about Sovereigns losing their 'spell points'... that might make magic more gimped than it is already.

And regarding the moving spell books to tech trees, that might make the Sovereigns feel even more uniform. If it is implemented, I would like to see spell book research become harder.

Please spend time looking at the Master of Magic spell lines and make EWoM's magic lines feel more unique like those. Adding an 'Arcane' of default magic line, and putting all the spells that are similar in there might solve the issues too. I would also add summon hero/champion spells, I almost never see adventurers other than Jannusk in my games.

Keep up the improvements!

Reply #222 Top

One more idea... in MoM you had spell books for each magic school, something similar based on spell levels would be effective in EWoM, so sovereigns would have to research spell level for each school they had, limiting them to all powerful in one school or jack of all trades in all schools.

Reply #223 Top

Stardock is the only non MMO game company I know that develops its games after launch around the player base. A MMO game at launch is more what the company thinks the player base wants vs. a year or two later what the players want now. This is why I love Stardock. The only games I have on my computer pined to the start menu are my current MMO and Stardock games. With that being said here are a few updates I would like to see in the game that I have not seen posted yet.

  1. All factions have their own color please show those colors on the map just like GC2 not yellow, green, and red. I want to see how others are expanding and go not like clicking in to every single town to know who owns it.
  2. City manager more like GC2 colony management window to quickly see the status on all cities and update them from the manger.
  3. Add the GC2 shift + N ability so I can restart another random game with my current options to get a better start position.
  4. Form an Army like a fleet in SoSE but the army stays grouped while in town resting. Since atm this is the only way to heal all the single clicking out of a city to reform my army is a pain. Easier to let weak die and strong stay.
  5. When a city levels up show me that city’s status resource screen so I know how to better pick the bonuses.
  6. Update character screen to the normal MMO charter item slots so I know where items go. Why boots are considered legs? I like to hunt for those item slot upgrades.
  7. The faction sides mean something. I like to play the good side in this game and want all of the good to come together to defeat the bad. Yet when I play a game it’s a FFA.
  8. Graphics mean nothing to me they just slow me down so I play on the cloth map. The cloth map is not as easy to tell what type of land your are on or how to access areas with mountains.
  9. While playing in cloth mode anytime you go to the menu and back your game is bugged to graphics mode and you have to load the game. So I always have to save the game first when I go to the menu to make changes and load the game up after changes. I start of a game with auto turn on and turn it off as the game progresses. That’s how I found this bug.
  10. More bow upgrades. Rethink the long training time on archers. I just stopped using them.
  11. More work on unit types for countering bonuses vs just attack power. If they have knights I need pikemen, if they have archers I need knights, if they have melee and I need archers, etc. As it is now I just go for the best attack and always win no matter the unit type. I mostly always auto battle combat slows this game down too much for me.
  12. Ability to turn off all the flash in combat and to pick faster movement speeds in combat to speed up the time it takes to do a round. More like Heroes of Might and Magic. That game had tons of options to speed up the combat vs just hitting auto battle.

 

This and with all the other changes talked about in this post mainly making AI on par with GC2 and fix the memory leak this game could become the GC2 of the turn based fantasy realm.

Reply #224 Top

While playing in cloth mode anytime you go to the menu and back your game is bugged to graphics mode and you have to load the game. So I always have to save the game first when I go to the menu to make changes and load the game up after changes. I start of a game with auto turn on and turn it off as the game progresses. That’s how I found this bug.

Nope. Zoom down below cloth map level and back out.

Reply #225 Top

All factions have their own color please show those colors on the map just like GC2 not yellow, green, and red. I want to see how others are expanding and go not like clicking in to every single town to know who owns it.

Turn off smart player colors in the options.