I'm not sure I like the changes for the magic system. I was planning on making a pretty big magic mod that would remake existing spellbooks and add lots of new ones. The changes were supposed to differentiate existing fire/water/air/earth books instead of making them too similar as they are now. OFC there would be much more spells in each book too. I would also re-add life and death books. The plan was to make each of those 6 books available at the sovereign creation and they would cost 10 design points each, making you think hard what you want to spend your points for. The rest of them could be added to research tree but I'd rather have them all available only through quests or found in special sites. They would be a rare find too.

If you pull spellbook selection out of the sovereign design and put them into the tech tree only (that can be done via mod already, i believe) then you still didn't solve the issue with 'no reason not to have all books', you just changed method in how to achieve it. Instead of spending 12 or 15 points in sovereign design, you now spend research and some time to get them, but you will get them all anyway. If you, however, make them expensive in the design, make each spellbook worth the cost (more spells and each spellbook really different in purpose and effects) while making the rest available ONLY if player has luck to find them, they you gave a player a choice to make. Do I take fire or air? What if I don't find fire in game?  If you take spells out of Sov creation, I won't be able to make this kind of mod. Also, since you are doing and overhaul and you have 1 tile unit groups you could add more types of spell effects. For example:
1. Single unit - hits only 1 unit, regardless if it's alone or in the group
2. Single tile (area effect 1), effecting whole group of units in single tile (or 1 unit if it's alone, OFC)
3. Multiple tiles - the kind you currently have for spells like blizzard (area effect 2+)
4. All enemies - hits all enemy units in the battlefield, friendly units not affected
5. All friends - hits all friendly units in the battlefield, enemy units not affected
6. All units - all units on the battlefield affected
7. Overland spells on the single tile (including damage spells)
8. Overland spells with area effect (also including damage spells)
9. Global spells that have effect only in your area of influence (your borders)
10. World spells that affect whole world.

Just by making the above selections you would open tons of possibilities for making more and varied spells which translates in more diversity and fun for the player.

For making that magic mod I'd definitely need some solid info on all the spell effects and other options I can use to make them. I won't need step-by-step 'modding for dumbs' manual on how to make a mod there, but I do need an info to see all the options I have available to make a mod (spells in this case).

I don't have a problem with global mana pull change although there definitely should exist an ability that limits the amount of mana each caster can pull during single turn. It feels really wrong to have some john doe that suddenly found ability to cast spells, cast as much and as powerfull spells as the sovereign who has been doing that at least most of his life. You could also separate defense and magic defense stats so that units that have high combat defense may be vulnerable to magic and vice versa.

I think it's just the other way around.

Right now, the real reason to imbue as many champs as possible is mana regen.
With 3 champions helping you regen 4 times as much mana as a solo channeler.
That lets you put more enchantments on cities or summon 4 times as many stone giants. And opening a battle with 4 "free" AOE spells is... useful.
(those giants have their own mana pool and regen independantly)

With "channeler" being a boolean flag, your mana expenditure would scale as it should:  with the amount of mana resources controlled.

So I think that's a very good idea.

Not to mention, when you imbue, they can level up in Essence...

I see the point you are going for, but I think we're using different assumptions. My assumptions are

1) There will still only be one channeler initially, the sovereign.

2) That by some means the sovereign can designate additional channelers.

3) That as a consequence of boolean essence, the sovereign no longer takes a personal penalty for spreading his essence as his essence is still 'true'.

4) That as a consequence of boolean essence, the unit maximum mana expenditures will be controlled by either some sort of global throttle or perhaps their own wisdom.

I guess it is assumption 3 that is my source of concern. The mana regeneration problems can be fixed without removing the interesting choices about leveling up the sovereign vs protecting him, and deciding which champions are worth investing this precious limited essence resource into. I find this mechanic to be fairly unique and enjoyable.

WOW. Just WOW. Thank you Frogboy! You know I've really been pissed with Stardock a little bit since in BETA I suspected that things would end like this but you guys did a hell of a job fixing many things. It now runs much better on my machines. And I know there's a lot more to come and that we get the expansion pack for free is just unbelievable and brought me back to think about Stardock like I was thinking about you guys before the release: the only real "community driven developers" for something I'd call a major game, that I know. Thumbs up for you guys. Yes you made a mistake, but everybody makes one or two from time to time but to me it's all good now - keep it up.

Greetings!

Shared mana:

I think that the shared mana pool is a step in the right direction but making (Losing) Essence to a Boolean is probably a mistake.

I would reconsider Essence/Wisdom as "How well can a Caster unit tap into the mana reserve and how much mana is wasted in the process".

This would make new casters waste more mana and would also keep the ability important for Sovereigns.

I like MoM a lot. I still have it on the hard drive and playing it on occasions using DosBox but...

I like to see Elemental as a different game, one that is fun to play and mod. if I wanted MoM, I wouldn't have bought E:WoM and just continued to play the original

I see a great potential for E:WoM, heck, It 'cured' my WoW addiction. Balancing the game and nailing the foundation can be rough and tough and I wish you Stardock guys all the best to make it happen.

I'm teetering on the edge of a decision about returning the game. Posts like this pull me back from the ledge. In it's current state, this game is not worth keeping. But I guess I'll keep my measly $50 deposited in Stardock's account for a while longer, in hopes they'll turn this lump of coal into the diamond their other games are.

They won't give you a full refund anyway.

If every shard just generates "mana, 1 unit" then this would not make them very distinct.
You could use that mana to cast 10 "earth" buffs even if you have no earth shards at all but only a mess of fire and water shards.

I say that mana should have a colour.  Elemental is the name of the game so they should be important. Always.
Oh, if that would visibly be true it would be an interface and accessability nightmare but it doesn't have to be that way.

It would be a tweak to the cost of spells.
Let's say 1/3 of the spell cost would be generic.
It's no fun being totally "dry" when you don't find the right colour of shard and you have to keep in mind that the AI has to be able to work with the system, too.

The other 2/3 would be determined by how many fire shards you actually controlled.

So if you control a total of 5 fire shards then the spell cost of a 40 mana fire spell would be:

=    40 / 3 + ( 40 * 2 ) / ( Fire.Shards + 2 )  = 24,8

Cost of a 40 mana spell
Shards  Cost
0           53
1           40
2           33
3           29
4           26
5           24
7           22

So while mana itself (and it's generation process!) could stay completely colourless, the cost of the elementary spells would dictate how many of those you could cast.
If you have 5 fire shards but no earth, then it would be advisable to rely on fire spells for combat or the likes but sometimes you simply have no choice because
a particular city or unit buff has the wrong colour. But there is no equivalent at all in the colour you have...
It should still possible to cast those but it would be far more efficient if you would conquer only one of your neighbor's properly coloured shards.

The effect is the same as if mana would have a colour - only with a far simpler mechanism that is easier to manage and understand.
(and a lot easier to implement because it really only affects the spell's cost = )

Even with the current system of all magical damage being physical and counting against "physical defense", how many "proper" shards you controlled
would suddenly matter when deciding which damage spell to cast in a fight.
That's a lot of function for very little coding.

Thank you for the update and the hard work to continue to improve the game.

I read through all the replies to this post and so far haven't noticed anyone mentioning a point I'd like to add (sorry if it's been mentioned in another thread).

It bothers me that whenever a single unit is attacked on the map, the combat is automatically calculated without the option to play out the battle yourself. There should be the option to either play the battle yourself or allow autocombat for every battle regardless of how many or what kinds of units are involved. There have been a number of times I lost a battle that I felt if I'd been able to play it myself I would have won.

Thank you for the opportunity to give our feedback.

Far from perfect.

But we've got every faith that things'll be fixed when they're fixed. I can't speak for the others, but I'm nothing if not patient

Take your time. I ain't goin' nowhere, nohow!

Just go to options and set 'tact-battle threshold' to 1. Now you will always have option to use tactical battle.

You mean even with the tactical battle threshold set to zero in options?

I didn't try 0. I have it set to 1 and always do tactical battles.

Hey Frogboy, welcome back.

Forgive me for establishing my cred again (I rarely post on the forums) but I'm a loooong term stardock fan, from back in the days of dengin.net and the original galciv and political machine. So first, the constructive criticism - the game wasn't ready on release, at least not to Stardock standards. It's still not quite ready (I'm one of those 64 bit users who've been having problems) and I haven't gotten through a single complete game yet with the "your save isn't compatible with the new version," various errors, slowdowns, and memory holes.

With that said, learning the nuances of this new TBS game has been really fun - Elemental has consumed 98% of my gaming life since you released it and I've played it far longer than I have StarCraft II (which still isnt' finished).  It truly is something different and has a ton of potential over the long term. There are still gameplay and balance tweaks that need to be addressed (as you know and are being very clear about). I also know how quick to adapt your team is, how willing they are to make fixes, and how completely honest you are in explaining what's happened - what went wrong, what went right, and what lessons are going to be learned. I know you'll take all this knowledge and apply it to your future projects.

The worst game I ever played on Day 0 was Civilization III.  If I remember right, it took 3 patches until it was playable and an expansion pack before it was fun and it felt like there was zero communication and those patches took months before they were ready. Elemental still needs fixes and tweaks, but it is nowhere near that horrible experience I had with Day 0 Civ III.

Stardock is an amazing company and I love your games and what you do. Thank you again for your honesty about the game's shortcomings. I can't wait to see what you have in store for us and the ways you and your team are going to make Elemental better. I'm still glad I bought the Limited Edition.

P.S> My hope for your next game project is a city simulator, ala SimCity.  EA/Maxis seems to have abandoned it and I honestly don't trust anyone else to make it good. I'm sure your team could make something incredible and unique that would give you another set of completely rabid fans.

P.P.S> I apologize if this was asked earlier, but have you thought about reconsidering your retail strategy? It seems like the retailers aren't willing to play fair and with more and more things going to digital distribution, maybe just saying a big FU to the retail stores and being purely digital is the way to go.

What this guy said, lol. Someone in marketing took the day off when naming this one?

They waited until marketing was safely tucked away in a meeting before officially naming it.

They were working on Society until it got shelved. (be patient, the page takes a few seconds to load)

RE: Magic, lots of good ideas here.

The ones that I really like are:

1. Research spells by Book (i.e. Fire Book, Fire Level 2, Fire Level 3, Water Book,Water Level 1, Water Level 2). So that players really to make a choice and don't automatically gain access to all spells of a specific level. Sovereigns would still have to learn each spell once it is added to their spell book. Force them to make choices.

I would allow a player to purchase a spell book at start or research it later. If they purchase it at start (3 points) their sovereign would begin the game with knowing one 1st level tactical spell from that book. Have books beyond the first one cost more - i.e. 1st book 3 points, 2nd book 6 points.

2. Attunement: (Element) Talents. As was suggested by Robert Hentschke; a sovereign who has the Attunement: Fire trait gains a bonus to damage from fire spells and a bonus to mana from controlling Fire Crystals. Or perhaps this reduces the mana cost of spells from the specified school by -1.

I agree that this abilities should not be cheap, at least 10 points each. Perhaps an increased cost for atunement (elemental) abilities beyond the first one purchased.

3. Increase speed of mana regeneration. Perhaps as was suggested by having wisdom affect this (20 wisdom +1 regeneration, 30 wisdom =2 regeneration), a magic research tree and buildings that affects this (i.e. Monastery of Contemplation - +1 regeneration rate), or a strategic magic spell (Mana Regeneration, cost 20 mana, uses 5 essence, Level 4) or a Magic Rengeneration Talent (+1 regeneration rate, costs 15 points).

4. Separate regeneration of strategic from tactical mana. Having tactical mana regenerate faster seems to be intuitive as strategic magic use should really drain the soverign more.

5. Wider range of spells that does more than damage and make the spells from each spell book really different. I watched the Last Airbender cartoon series - and here the spells of the 4 elements (fire, air, water, earth) were really different. I don't get that feel in the current version of Elemental. The spells in Elemental are too alike. They need more character.

6. More Elemental Magic Oriented Buildings: Example:Water Wizards Guild, Fire Wizards Guild - that affect the cost of researching magic for a specific school. Monastery of Contemplation increases mana regeneration rate.

7. More Strategic Spells.

Strategic spells that aid the defenders of a city in unique ways.

1. Fire Elemental: Wall of Fire - surrounds the city with a wall of fire. On the tactical map this appears as a wall of fire. Enemy Units moving through the wall of fire take damage.

2. Water Element: Flood the land - surrounds the land about the city with water. On the tactical map half the battlefield where the attackers starts is covered by water, reducing their movement to 1.

3. Air Element: Wind Wall - surrounds the city with a wall of wind. On the tactical map enemy archer units find their attack range reduced to 2 or a much greater chance to miss their targets.

Strategic spells that destroy buildings:

1. Fire Element - Fire Storm - burns wooden buildings to the ground. Forces defenders to come out of the city if they wish to drive off the attacking mage and stop the turn by turn, title by tile destruction of their city. (destroys 1 title with wooden buildings per casting) - Mana 5. Wasted if cast on stone buildings.

2. Water Element - Tidal Wave - Summons tidal wave that destroys buildings built along the shore; i.e. harbor, and buildings constructed on beach titles. Affects multiple tiles. Mana 20

3. Earth - Earthquake - Collapses buildings of stone within the city, affects multiple titles - Mana 20.

4. Air - Windstorm - Destroys farming related tiles - i.e. irrigation, farms, orchards, affects 1 improvement per casting - Mana 5. Wasted if cast on stone or wooden buildings.

Strategic Spells that affect the movement of a specified ship for 10 turns.

1. Air - Favorable Winds - Movement rate for ship is increased by 1

2. Water - Favorable Tides - Movement rate for ship is increased by 1

3. Fire and Earth spells books have no spells that increase the movement rate of ships!

I currently consider magic to be the weakest overall part of the game.  I look forward to changes in this area!

Cheers

This, this support, this is why i buy stardock games-- whether I play them or not.  (i bought sins mostly because i love space games, but didn't really get into the rts concept much)

So i just want to know one thing.

When can i put in my pre-order for the expansions?

Wouldn't pooling essence make it a no-brainer?  The pool would lose 3xEssenceBonus each time, but gain a whole lot more from the added channeler?  If so, there'd need to be a change to make it a hard choice again, as 'no-brainer' choices are anathema to a strategy game.

Elemental war of magic is the first Stardock game i have played. I love strategy games and this game really looked impressive. To be honest i never heard of Stardock or seen any commercials for the game.  I bought it a few days after its release date and was pretty excited. Took it home and i was confused why i could only play on the cloth map. But i still played on the cloth map it was still good for about 45 minutes before i start getting problems and crashes. I was pretty angry with the game and pretty disappointed with Stardock. I still tried to play though, i love the concept behind the game and if it function properly i knew it would be a favorite. Patch 1.07 fixed alot of the problems i had and i could play with more then just the cloth map and im loving it. It did crash on me twice yesterday but its not enough to deter me from trying to play some more. Overall its a great game it just has some kinks to iron out and after reading Frogboy post im now pretty impressed with Stardock. I can tough it out while you guys fix some of the problems because you guys do have a great game here and with the customer support and service, i think you guys have another loyal fan here.

Post #147 - I like a lot of your ideas.  Especially the ones that overlap with mine.  Riding various monsters would rock.  Have griffons and hippogrifs and the like as well.

I believe the idea would be to change the cost to imbue champions. If the shared pool has a cap then it could lower that. Or alternately could impose a per turn mana maintenance cost, perhaps escalating for each additional champion imbued. Then the hard choice becomes whether it's better to have more mana in total or the ability to use that mana quicker and in more places. One could also tie the ability to imbue to shards possessed, a particular city building, spell level, or sovereign level. Lots of options.