The LF/Scout fleet, a Response
Sins Forums
To start, I'm going to make an arguement that I know a lot of you are going to disagree with. I don't think fighters are an acceptable counter to long range firgates. Why? It takes a dispraportianate amount of effort to counter fighters than it takes to build them. For like 30 or so fighter squads, you only need 30 or so flak. Think about it. 200 ship slots vs. 120? That favors flak heavily.
Fighters to me always have and will always be a wierd unit. They are super weak and die super easily. That to me means they need to be on the move when countering whatever they're countering so they're not in range of what can kill them, which to me says the fighters is designed to counter the bomber. It just happens to be good against other units.
Strikecraft are the only unit that can die, but not have to be fiscally replaced. This leads to imbalance in using fighters against lrfs because if flak destroy the fighters, the person who was using fighters has to wait a loooong time for antimatter reserves to build up and rebuild his fleet rather than build new carriers with new fighters.This gives the flak/lrf user a window of opportunity to deal a knockout blow with the enemy's investment dead and rebuilding.
This is why scouts have to stay. The relationship between fighters and flak makes it so that fighters can't be too strong, because then you have a new spam, but can't be too weak because then the bomber spam would become popular. This means scouts are the only reliable answer to the lrf spam early in a game. Thankfully, there's a big drop off in how effective scouts are later in the game thanks to bad multipliers and poor amounts of dps.
And so it begins............
People seem to hate scouts.....
No, not that kind, although some poeple do.
Gotta love 'em, but not that kind, unfortunately
Ah....that's nice...but still no.
You're getting warmer. (Age of Empire II Scout Cavalry)
Ah....there they are.....but oh? What's this?
People are using these with their scout armies because it's an effective early game fleet that is useful more because these units counter a lot of early game targets but in and of themselves are actually weak units? Whaaaaa?
Seriously though, take a look at this. In green are the two types of damage scouts and light frigs do.
| Very Light | Light | Medium | Heavy | Very Heavy | Capital | |
| Anti-Very Light | 150 | 75 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Light | 100 | 200 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Medium | 100 | 100 | 150 | 75 | 75 | 75 |
| Anti-Heavy | 100 | 75 | 100 | 150 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Very Heavy | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 100 | 75 |
| Composite | 100 | 150 | 125 | 100 | 100 | 75 |
| Capital | 25 | 75 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
Now take a look at it again. I'm going to highlight the columns of what both anti-light and anti-heavy units suck against
| Very Light | Light | Medium | Heavy | Very Heavy | Capital | |
| Anti-Very Light | 150 | 75 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Light | 100 | 200 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Medium | 100 | 100 | 150 | 75 | 75 | 75 |
| Anti-Heavy | 100 | 75 | 100 | 150 | 50 | 50 |
| Anti-Very Heavy | 50 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 100 | 75 |
| Composite | 100 | 150 | 125 | 100 | 100 | 75 |
| Capital | 25 | 75 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
Scouts and lf's suck against against targets with medium armor, very heavy armor, and capital armor. A carrier cap, light frigs early, and some heavy cruisers later (if the idiot is still making them) is all you need early to snuff this strategy. If you want people to stop doing it, you have to beat them first. We complained for ages about the Illuminator (still do), but not there is an actual counter so people don't do it as much anymore. People have drifted to this strategy either because they've had their ass handed to them with it, or they find it to be the most effective.
The counter is rather unusual, I admit, but still works. Thanks to the fact that the lf/scout combo requires scouts, that means half that fleet is bascially just taking up space in his ship slots.
Poeple don't like that a tier 0 strategy works so early.....What else is going to work super super early in the game? You can't build mid game ships in the early game and have them work? Hello? How is that unexpected? You can't build a MID game ship in the EARLY stages and win? The early game fleet wins in the early stages? Whaaaaa? Really?
Now, I will be serious and say I think the bigger grievance is when these fleets get large. If his fleet gets large, (60 + lf, 80+ scouts), then that means you had adequate time to be forming your own fleet of light frigs, caps, and hc's in some mix or form. A pure lf fleet will crush said opponent. A couple caps will help. And with that kind of time getting hc's out in decent 10+ capacity isn't unreasonable. Repair bays are your friends against people who rush you first.
Let's not forget that scouts are pathetic in combat, as are light frigs, yes even the seeker and disciple.
I seem to be in the minority among the vets in thinking this isn't a problem. I don't see the scout army as a problem. I don't see the light frig army as a problem. I don't see them together as a problem. As along as they're all counterable, I'm happy. I don't make my fleet according to what I want to make. I make it according to what my opponent made. I don't think this prohibits late game ships from coming out, and I don't think this is a problem for current balance. It's a new trend that people need to learn to crush, and the exploiters will look for something else (they'll probably go back to the Illum).
.These types would encourage you to expand and reseach econ before you go mil.