The LF/Scout fleet, a Response

from Sins Forums

To start, I'm going to make an arguement that I know a lot of you are going to disagree with. I don't think fighters are an acceptable counter to long range firgates. Why? It takes a dispraportianate amount of effort to counter fighters than it takes to build them. For like 30 or so fighter squads, you only need 30 or so flak. Think about it. 200 ship slots vs. 120? That favors flak heavily.

Fighters to me always have and will always be a wierd unit. They are super weak and die super easily. That to me means they need to be on the move when countering whatever they're countering so they're not in range of what can kill them, which to me says the fighters is designed to counter the bomber. It just happens to be good against other units.

Strikecraft are the only unit that can die, but not have to be fiscally replaced. This leads to imbalance in using fighters against lrfs because if flak destroy the fighters, the person who was using fighters has to wait a loooong time for antimatter reserves to build up and rebuild his fleet rather than build new carriers with new fighters.This gives the flak/lrf user a window of opportunity to deal a knockout blow with the enemy's investment dead and rebuilding.

This is why scouts have to stay. The relationship between fighters and flak makes it so that fighters can't be too strong, because then you have a new spam, but can't be too weak because then the bomber spam would become popular. This means scouts are the only reliable answer to the lrf spam early in a game. Thankfully, there's a big drop off in how effective scouts are later in the game thanks to bad multipliers and poor amounts of dps.

And so it begins............

People seem to hate scouts.....

No, not that kind, although some poeple do.

Gotta love 'em, but not  that  kind, unfortunately

Ah....that's nice...but still no.

You're getting warmer. (Age of Empire II Scout Cavalry)

Ah....there they are.....but oh?  What's this?

People are using these with their scout armies because it's an effective early game fleet that is useful more because these units counter a lot of early game targets but in and of themselves are actually weak units? Whaaaaa?

Seriously though, take a look at this. In green are the two types of damage scouts and light frigs do.

 

  Very Light Light Medium Heavy Very Heavy  Capital
Anti-Very Light 150 75 50 50 50 50
Anti-Light 100 200 50 50 50 50
Anti-Medium 100 100 150 75 75 75
Anti-Heavy 100 75 100 150 50 50
Anti-Very Heavy 50 50 50 50 100 75
Composite 100 150 125 100 100 75
Capital 25 75 100 100 100 100

Now take a look at it again. I'm going to highlight the columns of what both anti-light and anti-heavy units suck against

 

  Very Light Light Medium Heavy Very Heavy  Capital
Anti-Very Light 150 75 50 50 50 50
Anti-Light 100 200 50 50 50 50
Anti-Medium 100 100 150 75 75 75
Anti-Heavy 100 75 100 150 50 50
Anti-Very Heavy 50 50 50 50 100 75
Composite 100 150 125 100 100 75
Capital 25 75 100 100 100 100

 

Scouts and lf's suck against against targets with medium armor, very heavy armor, and capital armor. A carrier cap, light frigs early, and some heavy cruisers later (if the idiot is still making them) is all you need early to snuff this strategy. If you want people to stop doing it, you have to beat them first. We complained for ages about the Illuminator (still do), but not there is an actual counter so people don't do it as much anymore. People have drifted to this strategy either because they've had their ass handed to them with it, or they find it to be the most effective.

The counter is rather unusual, I admit, but still works. Thanks to the fact that the lf/scout combo requires scouts, that means half that fleet is bascially just taking up space in his ship slots.

Poeple don't like that a tier 0 strategy works so early.....What else is going to work super super early in the game? You can't build mid game ships in the early game and have them work? Hello? How is that unexpected? You can't build a MID game ship in the EARLY stages and  win? The early game fleet wins in the early stages? Whaaaaa? Really?

Now, I will be serious and say I think the bigger grievance is when these fleets get large. If his fleet gets large, (60 + lf, 80+ scouts), then that means you had adequate time to be forming your own fleet of light frigs, caps, and hc's in some mix or form. A pure lf fleet will crush said opponent. A couple caps will help. And with that kind of time getting hc's out in decent 10+ capacity isn't unreasonable. Repair bays are your friends against people who rush you first.

Let's not forget that scouts are pathetic in combat, as are light frigs, yes even the seeker and disciple.

I seem to be in the minority among the vets in thinking this isn't a problem. I don't see the scout army as a problem. I don't see the light frig army as a problem. I don't see them together as a problem. As along as they're all counterable, I'm happy. I don't make my fleet according to what I want to make. I make it according to what my opponent made. I don't think this prohibits late game ships from coming out, and I don't think this is a problem for current balance. It's a new trend that people need to learn to crush, and the exploiters will look for something else (they'll probably go back to the Illum).

 

 

110,497 views 71 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

This is all very interesting, Amish, and it's great there's finally a counter to the rather boring LRF spamtastic battles, but...

doesn't that leave this diagram look rather faulty?

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

That chart isn't 100% accurate, and not just in regards to scouts. It says support cruisers counter HC's, that HC's only counter LRMS (when they really counter everything except bombers). Somewhere along the line that chart never got updated. It even acknowledges scouts are supposed to counter something....ableit buildings (level 3 ability).

The flak vs. fighter issues has never been resolved, so I really feel fighters aren't adequate.

+1 Loading…
CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

I could see supports countering with their abilities.  That is after all what was implied with arcovas.  They wouldn't stand a chance against Gauss Guns without Timed Explosives.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

:)  Very Interesting Amish, I always like your analyses, you put a lot of thought and experience into them.

Anyway, im not a multiplayer, so im not as prone to run into some of these things, the AI acts a little different, but its nice for my continuing education in how fleets are built to best use against other kinds of fleets.  

As always thanks for the interesting info,

-Teal

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

hehe AoE2...

My friends and I play lan games of that at least once a week .

 

<3 amish.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Well, the Scout Cavalry (Or should I say Mini-Cavalry? ;) ) is essentially the Feudal age Knight. Scout frigates as a combat unit are pretty similar to AOK Scouts. ^_^

Also, I've never seen Vasari use a Scout/LF spam. You may want to remove their pictures. ;)

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Doesn't the entire root of the problem still stem from the fact that LRF spam is easy and effective, while being hard to counter?  LRFs have never been totally balanced in this game.  Not in Sins 1.00, not in Entrenchment 1.41.  While TEC and Visari LRFs aren't nearly as bad, Illums (and Advent in general really) have always been a major thorn as they have high damage, long range AND are quite tough. People are scout rushing because they are sick and tired of the game being all illums, all the time.

The last chance to fix this is Diplomacy.  Illums need to be rebalanced as a tier 2 unit, and put in line with TEC and Visari counterparts.  End of story.  The all-around unit is supposed to be the tier 5 Destra, not the Illum.  Fix Illum spam, then we can talk about nerfing scouts as combat units.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Excellent point.  Illuminators specifically i think should have been higher in the tech tree for what they do. (Not that i want them higher, they're just tough, not mentioning the latest bug...I'm talking about the fact that they seem to target multiple enemies at once with each of their 3 batteries.  And at 17 average damage per attack, that's saying something to their power.)

I once concidered fielding nothing but TEC Javelis', back before i saw these forums and started ICO, because they had a lower supply cost, did more damage, and cost less creds/metal, using a little crystal instead.  But i'm more of a fleet-diversifier and couldn't bring myself to do it.  And back then i didn't realize their strengths/weaknesses against different units.

I do think LRFs should be one of the stronger units in the game, as their primary purpose was to take out defense platforms (Actually, buildings in general) from outside of their firing range.  Maybe if they were made a little easier to kill, like losing some hull or armor...

But we're here discussing Scout/LF Spam, not necessarily the Illuminator so...

The spam in question WAS created by another spam, so logically, there has to be a start to it all.  What we need to do is find out what the FIRST popular spam was, what people did commonly to counter it, and why the next popular spam was introduced.  Repeat untill we reach scout/lf.  A Timeline like this would do more to figure this problem out than one might think.  (And maybe give some insight as to what may be next...)

I disagree with Amish' views on Fighters, i generally make about half my squadrons or more into them, mostly to counter enemy strikecraft, but also because there is a descent number of units weak to them.  LRF, Bomber, Fighters themselves, siege, scout, and i think i'm forgetting 1...

I'd also like to see an updated chart like the one Apheirox posted.

BTW, Amish, i gave you karma for this after my last post.k1

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

There are already a bunch of threads talking about this, but since you have your own now, I figured it won't hurt to cut and past some of my opinions from other threads:

First:

Scouts have serious limitations, but skilled players can use them effectively to get an upper hand before you can progress far enough to make their scouts obsolete.  I can play any race, but I tend to favor Vasari.  Vasari don't really have much of an answer to Advent or TEC scout spam.  And building defenses is not an answer....if someone puts you on the defensive with scouts before you can expand, you are pretty much done.

I think scouts should still retain their abilities to fight LRF...I wouldn't want to see them nerfed stat wise (maybe a little for Advent scout's health).  I think they just need to be a bit more expensive, say 250 cr and take 3 supply.  This would put them more in line with Vasari scouts for cost.  They could still be spammed to counter LRF, but their cost and fleet supply would be a bit more in line with the value they bring to an army.  I think they are just too dirt cheap for how effective they are currently.

Second:

I just don't like the game being dominated by Tier 0 units.  Yes, Scouts do lousy damage, but enough of them will take out a cap.  I haven't been able to play the last few weeks, but when I had a chance to play a bit last month, and people were getting me to retreat caps with their mostly scout, some disciple armies.  Scouts are meat shields....they suck up damage from your secondary batteries while you are trying to kill the more dangerous LF's.  They are replaced as fast as you can kill them.  I'm sure a big part of my problem is I like to play Vasari, and I just need to switch to Advent for a while.  Why wouldn't I play Advent now?  Best Scout, Arguably best LF, Most DPS Flak, Best Carrier, Best LRF, and great Capital / Guardian support cruiser synergies...highest DPS HC too, but who would ever need em?

OK, in the other thread RA, you said you doubted that scouts would take out a Cap.  Well, they don't assassinate it!  Some caps are practically invulnerable to scouts, like a Progen or a Skirantra.  But believe it or not, a low level Marza or an Evacuator will die.  Let me explain how the fight goes (as if you haven't done this to people, right????).  And this is against Advent, btw, because everyone who loves to abuse this tactic seems to be Advent (because they have the most effective Scout / LF mob).  First, while Seekers don't do a lot of damage, they are almost as tough as a disciple...so you aren't going to waste your shots killing them when you could be killing the enemy Disciples or even have a chance at forcing the enemy cap to withdraw (probably a bad idea unless you have significant firepower optimal towards killing a cap).  The enemy Seeker / Disciple swarm will eventually get the upper hand on your frigates...rather quickly if you play Vasari -- because the Disciples have way more firepower than your Skirmishers, and your Navigator spam has no hope of keeping up with the Seeker spam. 

As soon as the Seekers have no optimal target to kill, they start nibbling on your cap ship.  Even if you start killing the scouts, an early capital will not kill them that quickly.....I won't even get into what someone with really good micro can do to you.  Scouts are really fast and can be run into and out of combat very easily...Disciples are too....this is good news for the Advent player, because he can actually force you to chase Seekers / Disciples if you want your kill, spin your ships around, etc... all the good micro stuff.  The player with less ships has a much harder time.  At some point, you realize your capital ship is going to die....mostly from Scouts, because the Disciples are supressing your other ships.  TEC can fight this kind of attack off with their own spam and homecourt repair advantage...but I have been overwhelmed as Vasari while sitting on a Repair bay.  If everyone uses these spam tactics, Vasari would pretty much have to start with a Skirantra as their flagship to even have a chance.

I don't know....I find Seeker rushing and the LF / Scout fleets to be more annoying than Illuminators.  Illuminator fleets are brutal, but I always played Vasari and TEC, not because I couldn't play Advent, but because I enjoyed the challenge of beating Illuminator spam players.  I still think 1.10 was one of the best balances of the game ...Carriers were very powerful, but I still found ways to counter them....When I got bored of killing people with my own carrier fleets, I killed people with LF fleets, with Flak / repair fleets (specifically because everyone said flak was useless.)  The thing about those strategies is everyone had a chance to expand a bit and an opportunity to outplay the other guy.  I find the Scout / LF rushing really uninteresting compared to a game where there is a reason to use other units.

 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

But believe it or not, a low level Marza or an Evacuator will die. Let me explain how the fight goes (as if you haven't done this to people, right????). And this is against Advent, btw, because everyone who loves to abuse this tactic seems to be Advent (because they have the most effective Scout / LF mob).

Two things popped into my head when I read this.

1. I actually don't use this tactic all that often, or at least past the first tier. I fight it more than I use it. My first fleet is just about always 1/2 light frig, 1/2 scouts (on a small scale, like 6 lf and 10 scouts).I find it to be a poor investment to make them in masse, and I will keep smurfing the users of this tactic until they stop.

2. I get a skirantra when Vasari, so that means the Evacuator won't die. Health cloud helps it too (and a repair bay, heals at 40 hps overall, not too shabby in the very early stages on one military lab). The Marza could potentially die, though I like to run it or sit in a repair bay. I tend to move it around too. Scouts/lfs's suck at hitting moving targets. I don't mind losing a low level cap if it means I'm going to rape his fleet. Obviously the Marza will rule the day if it hits level 6, but provided the Marza was your first pick for a capital ship, it should get to a high enough level that it can make it to and sustain in a repair bay, OR if it is a low level cap, that means your first cap was either an Akkan or a Sova. If it's a sova you're set. Those missile turrets are gold against this tactic. If it's an Akkan, you'd best rely on hitting the Progen with Ion bolt to stop shield regen.

P.S. One of my favorite things to do is to just get rid of the scouts. They are dead weight, so I buy the tier 3 ability Martydon for the seekers and run them all into the enemy cap. That is fun, though a risk, because after that you have little to no fleet.

P.S.S. If the scouts/lf's are in masse, where the hell's your fleet? If your enemy invests in a fleet, you have to invest in one too. And I feel this further cements that the users of this tactic are the users of the Illum spam: Going after the cap is something we saw a lot of when LRF was god, but now there's another tactic that's trying to do the same thing at the same stage of the game (first 30 min), and is actually doing it slower so as to allow the cap to make it to a repair bay, so I'm actually happy this strategy has come about. The old days of "mass more lrfs than your opponent, target enemy cap, chase enemy cap, kill enemy cap, finish off enemy fleet, win rush" are gone.

You think this tactic is mindless? It's the lrf spam that I thought was mindless. You just ran on auto-pilot after you did it enough times. Now there's a counter to it, so poeple have moved to the next strategy that requires the least amount of effort (though this time it's......wait for it.....COUNTERABLE).

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

P.S.S. If the scouts/lf's are in masse, where the hell's your fleet? If your enemy invests in a fleet, you have to invest in one too. And I feel this further cements that the users of this tactic are the users of the Illum spam: Going after the cap is something we saw a lot of when LRF was god, but now there's another tactic that's trying to do the same thing at the same stage of the game (first 30 min), and is actually doing it slower so as to allow the cap to make it to a repair bay, so I'm actually happy this strategy has come about. The old days of "mass more lrfs than your opponent, target enemy cap, chase enemy cap, kill enemy cap, finish off enemy fleet, win rush" are gone.

My point was this is after your fleet gets thinned out a bit and the scouts have no other optimal target, they are perfectly capable of taking down most caps, especially if there are enough of them.  As you say, Vasari pretty much has to build a Skirantra first.  TEC can fight back just fine on defense as long as they spam their own Scout / LF fleet and use repair.

Martyrdom is a waste of a perfectly good scout, unless you see an opportunity to take out a damaged cap.

Anyhow, bottom line, you like the balance -- I don't.  I think it is pretty stupid that a player can dominate the game with Tier 0 units and then tech up at their leisure to assault the final strongpoints.  I think scouts should use 3 supply and cost about 250 for the effectiveness they bring to the fight.  And they could still be used just fine as a counter because they would still be relatively cheap, but people would be more encouraged to tech up when they had the chance.  I also agree that fighters are countered a little bit too easily right now.  I know fighters were too powerful in 1.10, but it definately created a true rock paper scissors situation between LRF, Carriers, and LF.

 

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Cykur you got some good points in there, but I also play primarily Vasari, and while this strat has caught me off guard a few times, theres a few things I personally do to fight it back. And while I certainly feel that with the weakness of both the skirms and navigators make it particularly tough to manage an opposing army of similar units, watching how guys like JJ, Howthe and Fortune manage those types of fleets has taught me some important stuff.

First, going on the defensive that early doesn't mean game over. Watching replays with JJ has taught me that its nearly impossible to stop him from expanding and attack his key planets at the same time, which is often how he stays alive and kicking against the crazy odds people throw at him. He rarely uses his colonizer cap for battle, but would rather send it off to nab asteroids, terrans and deserts towards the center of the map (understanding the behavior of militia AI is certainly important). More logistics in safer places. As long as theres money coming in, it doesnt matter what kinda structures you lose. I'm not saying that everyone should do this always, I'm just saying what I usually do. 9 times out of 10 it pays off. Wathing a couple of replays with fortune and Kl3mz, I learned the benefit of scuttling. When my structures are under attack (with a little practice) Ive learned to time when to hit the scuttle button to try and get the refund just before its destroyed, the benefit of which I use to rebuild that structure somewhere else (eggs build bonus helps A LOT). And lemme tell you how worth it the investment in a few turrets can be if you see scouts/lfs coming.

I usually head straight for Carriers as vasari, because lets face it, Vasari bombers are good against everything (flak included, fighters of course excluded), plus with the recent jump in popularity of carrier caps, a carrier or two with fighters can slap down the early game advantage they offer. Sometimes though I'll get rushed before I can get enough to do much, specifically by the strat in question. Lfs are dangerous to my strat yes, but with a litte fancy micro, I can usually keep (most of) my carriers alive. Long enough to drive off or kill their cap, which means my HW is safe. If I do run into this strategy I usually do the one Vasari thing that will absolutely best it, Starbase.

It can be tricky to starbase, especially without feed. I usually pump out two or three migrators, which my opponent will chase down immediately because well, if they dont they get screwed. I'll jump them in, out, move em around until I get the cash i need to sb, then lure them away from one with another or my carriers, then deploy. Unless those troops are right on top of it, chances are they won't be able to kill it before it pops up. I focus on the lfs while its building iwth my carriers, which are usually safe because hes either trying to kill the SB or running away, and without sufficient lfs, he doesnt stand a chance of killing the sb. I've done this upwards of 10 times, and most of the time it works. The times it hasnt were because crappyness of my spot on the map, and honestly theres not much you can do against any rush in a bad spot on the map. Beyond the first attack with this rush, its pretty easy to beat a fleet consisting of only scouts and lfs, as RA has pointed out above. This isn't the ONLY thing one could possibly do, but seeign as this is a thread to discuss strategies to counter lfs/scouts, thought I'd put across how I handle em.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Cykur you got some good points in there, but I also play primarily Vasari, and while this strat has caught me off guard a few times, theres a few things I personally do to fight it back. And while I certainly feel that with the weakness of both the skirms and navigators make it particularly tough to manage an opposing army of similar units, watching how guys like JJ, Howthe and Fortune manage those types of fleets has taught me some important stuff.

First, going on the defensive that early doesn't mean game over. Watching replays with JJ has taught me that its nearly impossible to stop him from expanding and attack his key planets at the same time, which is often how he stays alive and kicking against the crazy odds people throw at him. He rarely uses his colonizer cap for battle, but would rather send it off to nab asteroids, terrans and deserts towards the center of the map (understanding the behavior of militia AI is certainly important). More logistics in safer places. As long as theres money coming in, it doesnt matter what kinda structures you lose. I'm not saying that everyone should do this always, I'm just saying what I usually do. 9 times out of 10 it pays off. Wathing a couple of replays with fortune and Kl3mz, I learned the benefit of scuttling. When my structures are under attack (with a little practice) Ive learned to time when to hit the scuttle button to try and get the refund just before its destroyed, the benefit of which I use to rebuild that structure somewhere else (eggs build bonus helps A LOT). And lemme tell you how worth it the investment in a few turrets can be if you see scouts/lfs coming.

I usually head straight for Carriers as vasari, because lets face it, Vasari bombers are good against everything (flak included, fighters of course excluded), plus with the recent jump in popularity of carrier caps, a carrier or two with fighters can slap down the early game advantage they offer. Sometimes though I'll get rushed before I can get enough to do much, specifically by the strat in question. Lfs are dangerous to my strat yes, but with a litte fancy micro, I can usually keep (most of) my carriers alive. Long enough to drive off or kill their cap, which means my HW is safe. If I do run into this strategy I usually do the one Vasari thing that will absolutely best it, Starbase.

It can be tricky to starbase, especially without feed. I usually pump out two or three migrators, which my opponent will chase down immediately because well, if they dont they get screwed. I'll jump them in, out, move em around until I get the cash i need to sb, then lure them away from one with another or my carriers, then deploy. Unless those troops are right on top of it, chances are they won't be able to kill it before it pops up. I focus on the lfs while its building iwth my carriers, which are usually safe because hes either trying to kill the SB or running away, and without sufficient lfs, he doesnt stand a chance of killing the sb. I've done this upwards of 10 times, and most of the time it works. The times it hasnt were because crappyness of my spot on the map, and honestly theres not much you can do against any rush in a bad spot on the map. Beyond the first attack with this rush, its pretty easy to beat a fleet consisting of only scouts and lfs, as RA has pointed out above. This isn't the ONLY thing one could possibly do, but seeign as this is a thread to discuss strategies to counter lfs/scouts, thought I'd put across how I handle em.

 

Deceiver, I appreciate the comments, and you point out some good strategies, but I DO understand many advanced tactics.  You don't see me much these days because I have moved several times this year and am sometimes living where I don't have a good connection to get on ICO, but I've been playing the game since it came out.  I love Vasari, they are my race of choice, though I play TEC a lot too -- that said, unless the map is spread out enough to let you expand, I don't have much faith in Vasari's ability to survive an early confrontation with Advent.  I think I will be able to play somewhat next month, so if I do get the chance, I will send you a message and we can play some games where you can demonstrate your Vasari defenses against me.  =)  Apparently, this is a good time to practice my Advent game.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

About fighters, I agree that they have never been balanced correctly.  First, they were far too weak, and thus lrm was uncounterable except with one's own lrm.  Then with the "carriers rule" patch of the game, fighers (or carriers?) were way too strong.  They were completely uncounterable except with one's own fighters.  Well, Cykur knows that I never employ the "current spam of the day" - I'd honestly rather lose.  I don't think he ever saw me build a single carrier back in the days of uber-carriers.  I lost a lot, but at least I did it... *my* way.

Then more changes were made to the game, and carriers/fighters were dethroned off of their lofty perch, and lrm spam was back in vogue.  Fighters were once again too weak to counter lrm spam.  But now we have something that will - the scout.  Some people are unhappy about that.

Just personal preference - I found lrm (and carrier) spam in the past to be completely asinine.  Thus my personal preference is for a counter to lrm spam in scout spam.  I think most people complaining about scout spam are lrm/illum spammers who are pissed that their age old tactic doesn't automatically work anymore.

I don't include Cykur in that category by any means - he could win most games with any unit, and I think he has legitimate concerns about tier 0 units being in such a stong position to dictate the flow of the game, blah blah.  And he has different personal preferences (as does anyone) about which flavor of spam offends his taste buds the most.  For me, it was the absurd carrier spam that makes me want to projectile vomit when I think about it even to this day... but truth be told lrm/illum spam has been a far greater problem in this game's history, and I want to hurl when I recall it as well.  If I have to choose my flavor of spam, it's scout spam every day, and twice on sundays.

This is not a shot at the devs (it really isn't), but I think they lack the tools, resources, abilities, etc. to truly balance this game.  There are probably good reasons for such lack of tools, resoures, etc., i.e. my intuition tells me that there are too many mathematical variables at play in this game, and one is confronted by a "combinatorial explosion" (as we say in computer science) when trying to balance them all.  In other words, it may require a supercomputer, or several, to balance this game, along with a team of programmers with ph.d.'s in mathematics.  So the game will always be coarse-balanced for SP, probably never fine-balanced for MP.

So, since fine-balance will never be forthcoming, we have to pick a poison.  Naturally, the picking of poison for most people will be a subjective thing.  Subjectively for me, scout spam agitates my projectile vomit reflex less than carrier spam or lrm spam.  When subjected to scout spam, I can hold back the geyser of pressurized puke for a longer period of time before it inevitably explodes out of most of my facial orifices (mouth, nose, etc).  And I have actually on occasion enjoyed watching an illum spammer get their ass handed to them by a scout spammer.  I never enjoyed seeing a carrier spammer get raped back in the day, except by another carrier spammer, and I never saw an illum spammer get raped back in the day, except by another illum spammer.  I've never seen a damn Marza abuser get what's coming to him (man, I STILL can't believe the devs have left MB essentially unchanged).  But at least with the current balance, I have had occasion, however small and fleeting, to throw my head back and belch out a good laugh.

The folks who want to move away from scout spam should explain what will happen to the game if we adjust the scout, and why such a modified game will be better than what we have currently.  For instance, will we move back to illum spam again?  If so, this is better WHY?  Since Cykur is both extremely knowledgeable and quite well-spoken (as well as being the nicest player I've ever had the pleasure of being face-raped by), perhaps he can take a crack at this?

(The real truth is, I think this "1 unit at a time" mode of balancing the game is just a perpetual game of "whack a mole."  One unit is too strong?  Nerf it.  Then another unit becomes too strong.  So nerf it.  Then another imbalance occurs, ad nauseum.  We need a more wholistic approach to game balancing.  Can anyone donate a supercomputer to the project?)

EDITS:  Just corrected a misspelling and a stray parenthesis.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Deceiver, I appreciate the comments, and you point out some good strategies, but I DO understand many advanced tactics. You don't see me much these days because I have moved several times this year and am sometimes living where I don't have a good connection to get on ICO, but I've been playing the game since it came out. I love Vasari, they are my race of choice, though I play TEC a lot too -- that said, unless the map is spread out enough to let you expand, I don't have much faith in Vasari's ability to survive an early confrontation with Advent. I think I will be able to play somewhat next month, so if I do get the chance, I will send you a message and we can play some games where you can demonstrate your Vasari defenses against me. Apparently, this is a good time to practice my Advent game.

Looking forward to it, haven't played with you in what seems like forever.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Somehaw i fail to see the problem of spammer... utill he get bugged stinking 50 lums.

But until then (thx Tyr u restored my faith in me and vasari)    i usualy rush rushers :)

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

The folks who want to move away from scout spam should explain what will happen to the game if we adjust the scout, and why such a modified game will be better than what we have currently. For instance, will we move back to illum spam again? If so, this is better WHY? Since Cykur is both extremely knowledgeable and quite well-spoken (as well as being the nicest player I've ever had the pleasure of being face-raped by), perhaps he can take a crack at this?

 

I probably am not bothered by the Illuminator spam as much because I have been contending with it ever since 1.05.  And I almost always played Vasari and TEC.  Sure, I would spam Assailants sometimes, but I never felt too bad about it because Assailants are very counterable and I would usually have to diversify at some point.  I can see where people hate Illuminator spam so much they are happy to see any ship able to counter Illuminators.  It just doesn't sit well with me that you can pretty much decide the game with Tier 0 ships and then tech up a bit to finish off a player who has dug in.

That is why I suggested making Scouts & Seekers cost 250 cr and take 3 supply.  They will still work as a counter -- I know this because I've used Vasari Navigators to fight off LRF and they cost about 225 cr 25 metal 3 supply.  This will make Scout/Seekers just be a little less desirable as permanent parts of a fleet.  An Illuminator costs 380cr 115 resources = 380c + (115 resource x 4.5 c/resource) = 897.5 credits.  If you counter it with 3 scouts that cost 750 credit and you still have a scout left over, THAT IS A COUNTER!  Right now you can do it with 3 scouts that cost 600 and take the same 6 supply as the Illuminator...and still have scouts left over.  So when I suggest they cost 250 and take 3 supply, I don't feel bad for the scout.  It will now take 9 supply to counter a 6 supply Illuminator, but still be cheaper than the cost of the Illuminator.  I think the the supply efficiency is the Illuminators reward for being a tier 3 ship.  This is what I mean when I talk about the scout's cost efficiency.  In addition to the math I just described, the Seeker is also hands down the toughest of all the scouts.  Now you start to see why people keep 50 of them handy in their fleets before they start to add more advanced ships. 

There are other balance issues in the game.  One is that maybe there is no other solid counter for LRF spam still.  I am not sure, because one problem masks another.  Supposedly HC's are performing better against LRF, but we won't know because nobody needs to use HC's right now when they have scouts.  Subverters also got improved, which is one of the ways I dealt with Illums back in 1.05.  Ultimately, I think fighters need to be a little tougher.  I know some people hated carrier spam, but I think flak is working a bit too well now...enough so that people don't use carriers until very late game when they need to use bombers to attack people's starbase fortifications.  If fighters were a bit tougher, they might be able to effectively counter LRF before they die to flak...and LF are very effective at killing carriers, so as long as we don't go back to the level of 1.10 carriers, we are ok.

The other major balance issue is that Vasari ships in general have atrocious cost/supply efficiency across the board, so they really rely on their Starbases and late game technologies...if they survive that long.  This is pretty well known, I think, and I'm not going to get into it in this thread -- but I will say that my solution of making Seekers & Scouts cost more in line with Navigators will help the Vasari balance a bit, which is why I don't think Vasari Navigators need buffed in Deciever's poll.

Ultimately, there will always be some ship or strategy that is just a bit more effective.  I accept that.  I just think the Scout is way too cost and supply efficient for a Tier 0 ship.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 15
I've never seen a damn Marza abuser get what's coming to him (man, I STILL can't believe the devs have left MB essentially unchanged). 

With the improved Akkan, TEC players have a much more common and viable counter to Marza. Advent can still tank Missile Barrage, and Vasari... well, Vasari can use the Marauder. >__<

I actually took out a level 6 Marza in a game yesterday. Ion Bolt is extremely useful to taking it out.

Quoting Cykur, reply 18

That is why I suggested making Scouts & Seekers cost 250 cr and take 3 supply.  They will still work as a counter -- I know this because I've used Vasari Navigators to fight off LRF and they cost about 225 cr 25 metal 3 supply.  This will make Scout/Seekers just be a little less desirable as permanent parts of a fleet.  An Illuminator costs 380cr 115 resources = 380c + (115 resource x 4.5 c/resource) = 897.5 credits.  If you counter it with 3 scouts that cost 750 credit and you still have a scout left over, THAT IS A COUNTER!  Right now you can do it with 3 scouts that cost 600 and take the same 6 supply as the Illuminator...and still have scouts left over.  So when I suggest they cost 250 and take 3 supply, I don't feel bad for the scout.  It will now take 9 supply to counter a 6 supply Illuminator, but still be cheaper than the cost of the Illuminator.  I think the the supply efficiency is the Illuminators reward for being a tier 3 ship.  This is what I mean when I talk about the scout's cost efficiency.  In addition to the math I just described, the Seeker is also hands down the toughest of all the scouts.  Now you start to see why people keep 50 of them handy in their fleets before they start to add more advanced ships. 

I agree now. In that previous game, my opponent essentially overwhelmed me with a Scout/LF spam. He had 50 Arcovas and 15 LFs up in about twenty minutes, that just wiped out my fleet in minutes. And the Scouts I killed off just replaced so quickly. Even with just a supply increase, Scouts wouldn't be able to counter LRFs to soundly. Which should hopefully make Carriers and Flak a bit more useful. ^_^

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 18

The folks who want to move away from scout spam should explain what will happen to the game if we adjust the scout, and why such a modified game will be better than what we have currently. For instance, will we move back to illum spam again? If so, this is better WHY? Since Cykur is both extremely knowledgeable and quite well-spoken (as well as being the nicest player I've ever had the pleasure of being face-raped by), perhaps he can take a crack at this?
 

I probably am not bothered by the Illuminator spam as much because I have been contending with it ever since 1.05.  And I almost always played Vasari and TEC.  Sure, I would spam Assailants sometimes, but I never felt too bad about it because Assailants are very counterable and I would usually have to diversify at some point.  I can see where people hate Illuminator spam so much they are happy to see any ship able to counter Illuminators.  It just doesn't sit well with me that you can pretty much decide the game with Tier 0 ships and then tech up a bit to finish off a player who has dug in.

That is why I suggested making Scouts & Seekers cost 250 cr and take 3 supply.  They will still work as a counter -- I know this because I've used Vasari Navigators to fight off LRF and they cost about 225 cr 25 metal 3 supply.  This will make Scout/Seekers just be a little less desirable as permanent parts of a fleet.  An Illuminator costs 380cr 115 resources = 380c + (115 resource x 4.5 c/resource) = 897.5 credits.  If you counter it with 3 scouts that cost 750 credit and you still have a scout left over, THAT IS A COUNTER!  Right now you can do it with 3 scouts that cost 600 and take the same 6 supply as the Illuminator...and still have scouts left over.  So when I suggest they cost 250 and take 3 supply, I don't feel bad for the scout.  It will now take 9 supply to counter a 6 supply Illuminator, but still be cheaper than the cost of the Illuminator.  I think the the supply efficiency is the Illuminators reward for being a tier 3 ship.  This is what I mean when I talk about the scout's cost efficiency.  In addition to the math I just described, the Seeker is also hands down the toughest of all the scouts.  Now you start to see why people keep 50 of them handy in their fleets before they start to add more advanced ships. 

There are other balance issues in the game.  One is that maybe there is no other solid counter for LRF spam still.  I am not sure, because one problem masks another.  Supposedly HC's are performing better against LRF, but we won't know because nobody needs to use HC's right now when they have scouts.  Subverters also got improved, which is one of the ways I dealt with Illums back in 1.05.  Ultimately, I think fighters need to be a little tougher.  I know some people hated carrier spam, but I think flak is working a bit too well now...enough so that people don't use carriers until very late game when they need to use bombers to attack people's starbase fortifications.  If fighters were a bit tougher, they might be able to effectively counter LRF before they die to flak...and LF are very effective at killing carriers, so as long as we don't go back to the level of 1.10 carriers, we are ok.

The other major balance issue is that Vasari ships in general have atrocious cost/supply efficiency across the board, so they really rely on their Starbases and late game technologies...if they survive that long.  This is pretty well known, I think, and I'm not going to get into it in this thread -- but I will say that my solution of making Seekers & Scouts cost more in line with Navigators will help the Vasari balance a bit, which is why I don't think Vasari Navigators need buffed in Deciever's poll.

Ultimately, there will always be some ship or strategy that is just a bit more effective.  I accept that.  I just think the Scout is way too cost and supply efficient for a Tier 0 ship.

 

Im not saying lums cant be coutered. I just say that 50 lums need  a fleet of 1,5 costsize of advent 50 lusm + progen. Try to counter an equal advent player without great neutrals advantage .And if they r properly upgraded they will melt everything. Sure u can use several tactiks, but all of them requires eco and fleet advantage.

The main problem with lums is  every stinking little bug makes extra 40 dmg. Devs admited it when JJ made all the testing job for them but still didnt do shit to fix it. All i heard is "next hotfix" and "i have a glith in my chip lums r too powerfull"

very proffesional behaviour.

Idea about increasing and equaling scouts costs look nice

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Swordsalmon, reply 20


With the improved Akkan, TEC players have a much more common and viable counter to Marza. Advent can still tank Missile Barrage, and Vasari... well, Vasari can use the Marauder. >__<

Why use the Marauder when the Kortul can now stop missiles barrage as well now? Much better use of capital ship supply.

 

And another great post by Amish, though the Vasari probably do need something else besides a Starbase or carrier cap spam. Maybe reducing Skirmishers to 6 fleet supply will be a sufficient change (as that has been asked for already)?

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

I agree now. In that previous game, my opponent essentially overwhelmed me with a Scout/LF spam. He had 50 Arcovas and 15 LFs up in about twenty minutes, that just wiped out my fleet in minutes. And the Scouts I killed off just replaced so quickly. Even with just a supply increase, Scouts wouldn't be able to counter LRFs to soundly. Which should hopefully make Carriers and Flak a bit more useful.

Well go let Deceiver know if you want to change your votes around on his poll.  =)  When you adjust for metal cost, a Vasari Navigator costs about 337.5 credits, so I don't feel bad at all if Seekers & Scouts cost 250 cr and also took 3 supply.

Im not saying lums cant be coutered. I just say that 50 lums need a fleet of 1,5 costsize of advent 50 lusm + progen. Try to counter an equal advent player without great neutrals advantage .And if they r properly upgraded they will melt everything. Sure u can use several tactiks, but all of them requires eco and fleet advantage.

The main problem with lums is every stinking little bug makes extra 40 dmg. Devs admited it when JJ made all the testing job for them but still didnt do shit to fix it. All i heard is "next hotfix" and "i have a glith in my chip lums r too powerfull"

very proffesional behaviour.

Idea about increasing and equaling scouts costs look nice

I'm hoping when the Illuminator bug that JJ found is fixed, Illuminators will be a lot more in line.  They are still going to be tough because of their instant damage / strafing strategies, but hopefully not as bad as they are now.  That said, I still think there needs to be a progression of ships that are effective as you move up the tech tree.  So if you like the Scout balancing idea, go vote on Deceiver's poll thread.   =)

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 22


Why use the Marauder when the Kortul can now stop missiles barrage as well now? Much better use of capital ship supply.

 

And another great post by Amish, though the Vasari probably do need something else besides a Starbase or carrier cap spam. Maybe reducing Skirmishers to 6 fleet supply will be a sufficient change (as that has been asked for already)?

I actually forgot about the Kortul for a minute. So TEC halts Missile Barrage, Advent tanks it, and Vasari just kills the Marza outright. ^_^

Quoting Cykur, reply 23


Well go let Deceiver know if you want to change your votes around on his poll.    When you adjust for metal cost, a Vasari Navigator costs about 337.5 credits, so I don't feel bad at all if Seekers & Scouts cost 250 cr and also took 3 supply.

I'm going to do so. ^_^ And the supply/cost increase does actually benefit Vasari quite a bit. An unchanged Navigator will be comparably more powerful to Seekers/Arcovas and might be usable early-game. That and a Skirmisher buff would make Vasari a much more viable faction early-game and make Pulse Gun research more than a cost-waster. ^_^

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

I finally got into a game with some "pro-ish types" (my connection has been so horrible it has been impossible for a long time).  I'll be damned if I wasn't lrm spammed by a TEC.  I was playing Advent, no less.  I saw him building his lrm fleet, so I started building seekers, but I kept them at my home planet, in reserve.  I kept thinking that as long as he didn't actually "bring it" and spam me directly, I wouldn't spam him back, but of course he did roll into my planets with that shit as soon as he possibly could.  So I hit him with the seekers and he screamed "scout spammer!"

It's like "WHAT?!"  So eff'ing typical, I guess.  A damn lrm spammer calling someone else a spammer who only spammed him back in self defense!  I have far too much of a sense of fairness and fair play with these games, I guess.  It's like, why did I ever hold back to begin with?  I think I'm just going to start taking a totally cutthroat, no holes barred approach to online gaming from now on, just like everyone else does.

At any rate, that story was simply to say, lrm spam is still there, even from pro-ish types who know about the scout.  Even though the "cat is out of the bag" with the scout, the lrm spammers are just chomping at the bit at a chance to spam lrm again, unmolested.  If the scout is nerfed this crap will come back so fast and so hard your head will spin.

I say no adjustments to scouts should even be considered until there is a decent way to deal with lrm spam waiting in the wings.  And right now, there isn't.