I'm sure this has been asked before but here goes:

Seeing how so many people here have such a strong opinion on Impulse and on IC using any kind of DRM on their software, what would these same people do instead?  What would THEY do to protect their game?

A genuine question - very interested to know the answer.  With regards to accessing previous versions of the game, the first thing that strikes me is SUPPORT.  How do we expect IC to cope with the logistics of a lot of different people running a lot of different versions?  You'll then get users who prefer a particular version, coming on with technical or balance issues.  You'll get multiplayer compatability problems.  It just seems unworkable.

I can, however, see how it might get annoying for mod developers.  That, I don't have any answers for...

Regardless of what we think about his reaction and comment about piracy, he is right in one regard:

We depend on Impulse and Impulse alone to activate, download, update the game.

This is why they need no DRM. And they can talk as much about they want about the "R" like rights in DRM, and say that Sins does not have DRM or copy protection... it is splitting beans, this is actually a better copy protection than many other DRM methods and also has its drawbacks, as the example of the OP shows.

Think about it - what if the server you got the hacked version from was down?  Would you complain to them and say 'now I'm playing on a legitimate one so I won't have any of these problems again.'

Sure there might be the odd technological glitch, but would you prefer them to release patches on open servers with painfully slow downloads, large file sizes and possible install problems.

Your complaint about backporting may have some validity, your excuse for pirating it is about as good as a light frigate against a Starbase...

No, they are promoting nothing of the kind.   It is all on *you* when you pirate from them.   It is your responsibility.  Your fault.

If you are, because of some temporary inconvenience, prevented from playing A GAME, you could find some other thing to spend your time on.   Nothing is obligating you to steal.   Stardock is not responsible for your illegal behavior in any way.

Of course, with your self-absorbed self-entitled victim mentality, you won't understand that.

I find it sad that some people find nothing ethically wrong about stealing someone's hard work. Regardless of whether or not you the DRM sucks (which I do), it doesn't give you a right to bypass your moral obligation to do whats right.

There are far too many immature, selfish people in the world.

Temporary inconvenience ???? I will never be able to have the version of sins between 1.12 and 1.16 in a legal way because Impulse directly upgrade to the last version... From the Stardock central time, you was able to choose what update you wish to install...

About the "A GAME"... i almost not game at all... i am a modeler and since a few month, i made models for several mods... the point is that i need a copy of each version for test purpose since all mods are not at the same level ( version )...

Stardock is responsible for Impulse and Impulse don't allow to upgrade to the wished level or downgrade if needed... so, yes, Stardock is responsible... Pirate exist because people are asking something that they don't receive in the normal way... of course, you have some greedy people who use only pirate version because they don't wish to pay for something... but these guys will never post here or seek support... mainly, the people who complain here and in other topic have legal version... and it is our customer right to complain when something seem not good for us... It is not the customer who need to adapt but the publisher... because we pay and they receive our money !!!

For info, when i have buy my first boxed version of sins, the box was requested to use Stardock central for upgrade... but with time, Impulse have appear... i was happy with Stardock Central but Stardock have change their system and in some way break their contract with me... on my more recent boxed version ( yes, i have buy more that one boxed version ), the need to use Impulse is written on it... So, new customer are fully informed...  

you could find some other thing to spend your time on.

Good idea... i will stop to give any support to several mod and return to my initial 3D modeling work... people seem to be more friendly there with my free work for them that here... between Stardock ignoring my post/e-mail, people considering Stardock being God like and not accepting one critic related to some problem, i become really tired of it... Stardock have now loose a good customer and they will loose more of them with time...

I'm not going to buy-in to most of the commentary above. Most of the arguments objecting to my post are unspiring, almost entirely being limited to some variety of "pirating games is bad... mkay... so just don't do it... mkay". Whatever...

I'm mainly back to say that the same thing happened to me again last night.

As noted, I don't get to play that often but the level of enthusiasm generated by Entrenchment somehow miraculously lead the stars to align and I managed to get three frends up for a network session via Hamachi Saturday night. Tragically, for the second time in as many days, it appears that Stardock's servers were down again and not everyone was running the same version.

Thankfully I'd downloaded a full cracked version since my last post which I can extract and have running straight from a zip file in about five minutes. After about an hour of driving around to people's houses with the pirated verion we finally managed to get a game going, in defiance of Stardock's best efforts to prevent us from playing our own game.

Note to Stardock, I pay for a game to play in my time, with my friends, at times convenient to me. I have zero interest in paying Stardock to dictate who I can play with and when.

The score to date: Pirates 2 : Stardock 0.

Number of future customers lost: 4

Great job guys!

To be entirely truthful, the OP has got a point.

This is the first stardock game I've ever played, I loved it to bits and spread the message of love to a few of my friends who all grabbed copies from the shelves, we spent a good few weeks up to our eyeballs in frigates and cruisers having a ball and a bit of fun in our free time.

This weekend for no specific reason we all decided to give it another bash, non of the current "new" games excited us so we thought we'd return to an old classic instead. Two of my mates use Impulse (which btw sounds like a great idea, its something I've never really heard of, but a game that patches itself and saves me bothering with which exe or zip i need and just gets on with things sounds fantastic) but three of us haven't really followed things since the release and only ever played the original version.

Yet we couldn't upgrade versions to be compatable, and we couldn't play amongst ourselves with the versions we had, which ironically resulted in the two people who use Impulse regularly resorting to a pirated copy just so they could play with those of us using our old cd versions. We laughed it off at the time but the harder things are for us, the less likely we are to return to playing a game, no matter how good.

Please make things easy for us; have a backup, have a failsafe. Either make the servers more reliable so even at peak time we can all connect and upgrade, or spread an installer that doesnt require impulse, otherwise you'll start to hear more and more of the stories like above.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet - Stardock/Microsoft's new DRM scheme (GOO) should address this exact problem.

I wonder if this will be rolled out to Sins and Entrenchment.

edit: Misread the news article.

What's the deal with strawman arguments tonight.

There was nothing stopping him from playing the game.  He wanted to get an update and (so he says, I haven't heard of a case where the Impulse servers were down for more than a few minutes) the download server is down.

Calling THAT DRM is like saying an FTP site for hosting patches being down is DRM.

This is exactly the kind of idiocy that is just wipes out sympathy for anti-DRM consumers. Because whenever I meet with a publisher, you can bet I'll get a post like this thrown in my face where the DRM nuts will accept nothing less than some FTP site with the raw EXEs right there. 

And if there's no middle ground, then the publishers might as well take the hard line.  Users need to start making some distinction between obnoxious copy protection where you only get to install N times and have to keep a CD in the drive  versus the requirement to download updates with our download manager (Impulse).

Impulse will update from any version of Sins to the latest version. You can even right click on Sins from Impulse and have it verify install and it will update *individual files* to the latest version.  That's one of the main reasons we use Impulse, it greatly eases updating for us.

You know, I'm new to SoSE, and I plan on modding and working with a mod team.  That being said, all this complete BS about DRM and not being able to choose what version you have, go grow up.  A game company is in the business to provide the best game they can while making a profit to pay its developers to make updates and/or new games.

What that means is, their only obligation is to provide us the consumers, with the most up-to-date version of their product, why, previous versions are inferior products to their current version.

I have only one thing to say to the nay sayers... if you can do better, then put your money where your mouth is, and do it, or just shut up.

Previous versions aren't always inferior to the current version.  I've patched some games and found the new version worse than the old, because patches aren't always perfect and can sometimes introduce new problems (especially if they have new content or tweaks rather than just being bugfixes).

But that's another issue, really.

I disliked the DRM so much that I tried to give away my unactivated boxed copy of SoSE, but my post was deleted in minutes.  Which doesn't surprise me.  A company that uses DRM and says it doesn't is hardly likely to allow dissent.

Although the forthcoming GOO thing looks more promising.  If Stardock hadn't already annoyed the hell out of me, I'd be looking for GOO'd games.  GOOey games.  GOOey GUI games.  Good GOO'd GOOey games :) 

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

That sounds like a contradiction.  You don't like the DRM yet you never registered your boxed copy.  I am quite sure that the base retail version of SINS can be played as it is, thus it has NO DRM on its own.  DRM only comes into play when you get updates through Impulse, which requires registration.  So if you never registered your boxed copy, then you never had to deal with DRM.  So how can you say that you don't like Stardock's DRM when you haven't encountered it first hand?.

Also, can you tell me where you found a statement by Stardock that they do not use DRM at all?  To my knowledge Frogboy has always said that Stardock is not anti DRM, they are anti-stupid DRM.  The closest I can find is how Stardock has no DRM on its base retail games only, DRM only comes into play for digital versions or updates.

It isn't a contradiction - I haven't registered it because I don't like the DRM.  I'd actually prefer StarForce anti-copying stuff, despite the stability problems I've had with it.  Although I'd probably think differently if I had ever sat on a game disk or something like that.

um, okay, pirating first, if you have already payed your silver coin, have bought the game, and are simply downloading an older version of the game so you can play with your friends... im probably going to catch some flak for this but i dont consider that piracy. if you hadnt paid any money and wanted to play the game with friends and so downloaded a pirated copy THEN thats stupid and illegal... but downloading something thats outdated, potentially inferior and most importantly, something you once had and already paid for, is not piracy in my opinion, despite where you get it from.

now, DRM... Yes, i guess Impulse is DRM, dont get me wrong im as pissed off as the next guy when servers go down, but as far as i understand DRM (and i dont claim to be an expert) DRM is simply some method of making sure you are the actual owner, and that you are not some chump who wants a free lunch (and when Entrenchment is $10 download, its actually less than lunch). i dont think thats too much to ask, i mean, if you make something, write a book, paint a picture, anything, you would want to be compensated and acknowledged for your work right? Stardock/Ironclad/EA everyone is no different... except EA etc are blood sucking leeches but lets not get into that. i mean, i downloaded Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 (legally). after i downloaded it, it wanted me to go on the net to verify i was the guy who bought it.... except that downloading RA3's big 6 GB ass burnt out my net connection (i was overseas and using mobile internet) so i had to wait like a month to get internet back so i could play the damn game. i bought a CD version of Crysis Warhead, and, unlike Crysis Original Recipie, where you just needed the disk to play, Crysis Warhead requires no disk, but needs regular uplinks the the net to check that im the guy who bought it... at the time i bought it, i didnt have the net! so again, for like a month to 5-6 weeks, i couldnt play my game! THAT is stupid DRM my friend. given, most people have internet nowadays, but i didnt, and it caused me SERIOUS aggravation. Compared to that, the Impulse server being offline for one night is nothing to worry about. Just curious, if they had taken the server offline to do maintenance (make sure it doesnt blow up) or to increase effeciency and speed, would you still have complained? if it screws up regularly, then, yes, Stardock needs to get its ass in gear and fix the problem, but if they are doing actual needed repairs/performance boosts, then one night is nothing to cry about.

now, from what i understand your problem to be, the servers were down and your friends couldnt update the game... why werent they updated in the first place? why was your version more recent than theirs? if you have a group of friends you like playing with, and you only play once a blue moon, update to a certain point and sit there, that way you can play without any issues with compatibility. regardless, the servers are down, its unfortunate, but it happens... when your cable tv goes down because some drunk schmuck ran into the telegraph pole, do you blame (sorry, im Australian i dont know who provides cable TV in the US) do you blame Foxtel for having a monopoly on your tv? you sit it out and wait. i mean, like someone up top said, if the there was no impulse, and simply a standard website with all the exe files on it, and the server that supported that website went down, would it be any different to what happened to you with Impulse?

Im sorry, i know this isnt what you want to hear, but sometimes things go wrong, and/or they need to be fixed. I live in Australia, thats like 20-something hours ahead of the US, if they take the servers down at 3 am US time, thats like 11 pm my time... and personally, id still be playing then, so, for people in the US who have jobs/school/lives and arent playing at 3-4 am, its not a problem, but for me, im playing at a still decent hour, and i get shot down because time difference sucks. Stardock etc is in a tough position, cut them some slack.

Now, all things said, i think your idea to get a pirated copy is nothing for other people to be upset about, it solved a problem... i hope you and all your friends have updated since then and no longer need the pirated version, but, for its purpose, it served well. like i said, he already paid his 10 pieces of silver, and since you dont pay for udpates (thanks Stardock/IC), and since we can assume he already, at one point, had the version he was downloading, he wasnt exactly stealing, simply overcoming an unforseen (by him) obstacle. However, just because servers go down does not mean that Stardock needs to give up its right to ensure it get acknowledged and compensated for its work, and Impulse does that, and even then, with updates only. You could steal the mint version of Sins (CD) and play forever without ever spending a cent, so insofar as that, Impulse is not DRM. but if you want the latest upgrades and advancements, then you need to pay, and you need to do in so that you get what you paid for, and Stardock/IC makes sure it gets fairly compensated for its work.

As a gamer I am getting concerned about these clients that will be needed to simply enjoy your game.

We have Steam, Impulse, Blizzard's TBA, MS Windows Live, etc..

Each service is boasting their benefits to the users. I am sitting at my desk looking at several hundreds of dollars of games in two boxes. Occasionally I pull one out of the box, install the game using my cd key, download the latest patch (which I usually keep with the game on CD just in case) and play.

My favorite game was Empire Earth.  Sierra was brought out, the website is shut down and the forums closed. Dispite this, I still play EE. The user community has modded the game to use different servers and life continues. Now, what would have happened if the game required activation.

I just want my patches without Impulse. I use Steam because of Valve's committment to improving the game and free DLC. I don't want multiple gaming clients running on my machine. One's enough.  I do not want to have to additionally worry about Stardock's survival (no offense). The game industry is extremely fluid, studios come and go. Meanwhile really good games vanish because their IPs get locked up in legal.  If Impulse is good, let it ride on its own, stop forcing Sins users to have to use it for patches to fix simple game bugs. Game registration should be more than enough! If you insist on using it for the expansion - fine, I'll just wait for the retail copy.

I am not trying to go into a Steam vs Impulse. I deal with Steam because I have to, but I fear over the next few years, distributors will be jumping on the activation, micropayment DLC bandwagon. Looking back we will miss the simple old CD checks with patches via FTP.

. 

lol. I'm pretty sure I was just called a liar by a Stardock rep. Way to go with the customer service guys, nice.

And you might want to ask my friends whether anything was stopping us playing the game, since we were hardly going to be sitting on our own playing against the ai's were we? (And by the way, on the subject of strawmen, as noted above I could have lived without an update. I have an earlier archive backed up that I can't reinstall without Stardock's servers either, so I lose on both counts.)

Regardless, I made the post for your benefit as a previously satisfied, now ex-customer. You are, of course, more than welcome to ignore it or otherwise as you see fit. Ultimately it's your bottom line either way and the only thing encouraging me to contribute to it, given the widespread availability of easier to play cracked versions, is my goodwill. Suffice to say you've lost mine.

Looks like we both got a win today, congrats.

I really don't understand why you like something that can physically damage your CD/DVD drives(and cause a lot of other problems) over Impulse.  Plus. ingnoring any problems with Starforce, I have thought that the company deserved to shut down after they linked to a working torrent of GCII on their forums just to prove a point. To each their own I guess.

I don't know about you, but I would like to think that the CEO of the company would know about any problems with his servers.

Given comments by Frogboy in the past, you sound like the kind of customer he doesn't mind losing.

Not having total jerks as customers is all the reward I need. Go away.

Your point must've been that you can't understand English (which would be valid if it wasn't your first language, but your writing style at least suggests proficiency).

For example:

Find me one place where Stardock said they don't use DRM. Just one. Good luck!

So yes, Zubaz was quite correct in his assertion that you don't know what you're talking about.

Frogboy, If I could afford to buy a game everytime you said, I would! But at last Im poor so I will save you a beer instead. Ok, and a pizza.