Vasari starbase offensively useless

Same as with the anti-structure ship it's not supposed to do the job alone. You back it up with your fleet until the sb is "mature" enough to engage the other sb which definitely balances the odds against a fortified position. Plus you get a tech so it builds faster in enemy wells, so do not think it's useless just because it's not overpowered.

Works great for me.  I'm growing my space turnip in one corner of a gravity well while my fleet is taking everything else, my fleet don't attack stationary SBs until my turnip is built.

If I'm against Vasari AI then as long as the Star base is being tanked by my fleet it wont attack my own star base im building.

Gee if only you could do something to protect it while it's being build.  I dunno something like putting mines in place where you are building it and maybe using some sort of a ship that heals, like an overseer, to keep it up while it's being built....  If only something like that was possible.  Oh wait, it is.

The point is, if i DO have adequate support to protect it, the starbase becomes irrelevant as the fleet that's 'protecting' it most likely wiped out the enemy anyway. So now the expensive starbase is left to clear repair bays and turrets...waste of money

not at all. By your same logic, that would render assault cruisers useless too. after all, they are only useful once the enemy fleet is engaged elsewhere, or they become extramely tasty canon fodder.

And a starbase is so much more useful than just for the clearing of structures, it acts as an block to a counter offensive.

Yeah dude unprotected torpedo cruisers will die to fighters before they can take down anything.

Sounds like you haven't "needed" one yet to take out a defensive emplacement.  When you run into a situation where you do need one, they are quite handy.

there are generally two things an Orkulas assault accomplishes that you can't do with just ships alone.

1) it very effectively locks down the grav well both during the assault and afterwards. there's no chance at all that an enemy will jump past your fleet and bomb the planet you just captured since there's a nasty ol' Orkulas there defending it. it also severely punishes enemies who try to retreat from it and your fleet. it will take them MUCH longer to regroup after a tactical withdrawal because they just lost 30% of current hull and 100% of anti-matter.

2) it breaks up the tactical advantages an enemy would normally have while fighting in their own territory. while your fleet sits on top of it and defends it during construction you'll be out of range of enemy fixed defenses. they can fly a fleet over to fight you but then they're out of range of their own turrets and repair bays so you've neutralized alot of their advantage.

you are right however that you really don't need to build an Orkulas to take out an enemy SB. bomber squadrons are a much better choice than dueling starbases.

Cykur is right, taking out large groups of gun emplacements can be very expensive ship wise. Much better to upgrade the starbase, let it do the hard work for you without you losing ships needlessly

Try large numbers of emplacements and repair bays surrounding an upgraded starbase where there are fighter hangars in system to shoot down your bombers.

That thing looks hideous!  Its an angry turnip with legs!  Its so ugly!

That makes the starbase an option for worse/more dire times, then. Sounds like you just haven`t encountered a circumstance where you *need* that offensively located starbase. I`m confident in my own playing that when A.I.s coordinate to attack me I`m going to be calling on that capacity.

well if they turned it up side down, then increased the tenticle size it would be like an octopus.

MarkoBarko is right.

It is totally inefficient to create a starbase to prevent losses of frigates and cruisers due to gun platforms or hangars, come on.

There is also no point to create a starbase to support an attack, it just takes too long. Or to leave it as a rearguard, come on.

The ability to move is an advantage nevertheless. The real question is if the Vasari can make do without "Anti-Structure" torpedo cruisers. A mobile starbase has some advantages, but building a starbase each time you would need some torpedo cruisers??? Not really viable!

That's exactly it. Vasari attack entrenched planet with different method than TEC and Advent. With them, you can always have Anti-Structure Cruisers with you, but with Vasari, building a starbase is viable only for heavily defended planets. Symmetry=lazy balancing, and i, for one, am happy with the way things are now.

Vasari is the pimpest with a freaking movable starbase, I don't want to hear about it's not "powerful" enough. 

ToJKa, right, they simply must do it differently. I still think the Nano-Assembler of the "Egg" gives them a nice edge versus starbases.

But I do not think we are talking about relative power or balance, but about the concept of using Vasari Starbases as attackers.

I can attack planets of course, but building a starbase for that, probably also having to upgrade it...? When I could get a whole fleet with more power, that will not stay behind?

Still, they might not really get a viable structure-destroyer, but sometimes the moving starbase could still be useful.

And for defense purposes, it is definitely an advantage. Fly towards enemy fleets and make them follow you into a minefield... - works

Well here's what I like about it.

Enter an enemy grav well and engage their fleet, when they retreat to the safety of their starbase start building your Orkulus. Then the enemy fleet, weakened, comes to destroy it and while they focus all their efforts on destroying it, you destroy their fleet with yours. It's worth losing a weak SB just to annihilate the enemy fleet, leaving their starbase relatively undefended, at which point you can just build another Orkulus to remove it.

I love the Orkulus because it is MADE to take on even the toughest defenses head to head, it doesnt mess around lobbing bombs from far away, it gets right in your face and messes your sh!t up.

And even though you can't bring it with you to the next well, it's still useful in the fact that ITS THERE, dominating that gravwell and protecting your flank.

To be honest... the research on the Vasari dreadnaught that increases the amount of damage done to structures is pretty pimp now - because guess what? It affects structures - AND star bases (and for that matter it's actually working now, lol)!

So no, you don't need an Orkulus on assault... but they really go help quite a lot in the end game if you can get one set up. It allows you to have far more survivability in an extended meat-grinder like assault (fuck you, TEC!), and can prove instrumental in dealing with those ridiculous Advent defenses.

Oh, and...

Gee if only you could do something to protect it while it's being build.  I dunno something like putting mines in place where you are building it and maybe using some sort of a ship that heals, like an overseer, to keep it up while it's being built....  If only something like that was possible.  Oh wait, it is.

Quoted from Astax for the truth.

I've only recently picked up Entrenchment and today was my first Vasari game with the expansion.  I built a starbse in an enemy gravwell (vs. AI) under cover of my fleet, but my fleet was called away to defend my opposing flank.  Because I was dumb and didn't have phase gates yet, it took my fleet a full 4 jumps, then a fight, then four jumps back, and my starbase was still in the enemy gravwell kicking ass.  It fought off 5 waves of enemy ships, including 4 caps and destroyed every structure in the gravwell, including 2 consecutive starbases (granted, the second almost didn't complete construction.)  The only reason it was threatened and I had to save it was the sheer amount of bomber-equipped drone hosts the Advent bot threw at it.  So I'd say yes, viable offensive tactic, at least vs. AI.

Being able to augment offensive power without burning more command points (and thus leaving the points for either RA, or not having the points and instead having a more efficient colony) might also be nice.

If the Vasari are supposed to use their starbase to take down enemy starbases, wouldn't they be screwed if they were fighting against a Vasari opponent? The Orkulus may be designed to fight against enough defenses but it won't fair very well against another Orkulus that has more upgrades.

Yeah, it is very hard once they are fully upgraded and backed by fleets and other static defenses.  I've encountered this before in Vasari vs Vasari games where the losing team retreated everything to super fortified Orkulus worlds.  The only solution I had was to go around these super fortified worlds and control most of the map, then we made many Kosturas and hit the worlds so many times that everything but the starbase is destroyed, at which point your fleet can go in and take out the Orkulus.  The game was pretty much over...it just took an extra hour to close the deal.

It is pretty handy to have a TEC with Novaliths on your side to take out the last couple super fortified worlds.

Thank You!, Thank You!, Thank You!

That's EXACTLY what I was trying to say for the past month! Vasari starbases are not the answer when it comes to assaulting another Vasari starbase. They require an Anti-Structure Cruiser; they could make it like a battering ram; heavy armor, heavy shielding, heavy firepower (only vs. structures), very costly but with a very, very short range (point blanc) and vulnerable to bombers.

Well, a cobalt light frigate won't beat an upgraded cobalt alone either, whats the point?