The point Annatar is making has nothing to do with the lack of SC defence. In face I would assume you would hope someone would rely on using SC agaisnt the beam cannons. Since with the extreamly high sheild mitigation and the recent nerf of damage across the board to Moudle armor. The actual damage SC will do to the beam cannon is pathetic. If your being invaded and they use SC the huge amount of time it takes to effectily null a semi-good defence with the synergy works in your favor. Its more than enough time for you to build or call back a fleet.

All Annatar is suggesting is to reduce the mitigation to allow balanced fleets to combat and null Advent defences in a timely manner. Right now, Over all defence wise, Advent has an advantage. The advantage is that it take a longer more Ogrovs or bombers heavy fleet to null Advent defences. Which allows more than enough time for them to pull back a front line fleet.

A small drop in the mitigation would still allow Advent defense to outlast the other races defences, yet allow a typical strike fleet to null thier defences with greater effectiveness.

*hands -Ue_Carbon a huge jar of non-poisoned cookies*

well none of this applys to me since i use nothing less than giantass fleets but isnt the ability to stall untill a fleet returns the point of having the turrets last so long

the advent defencese really dont have much killing power and its easy enough to run away from the returning fleet

unless the defence is stacked with SC but then its simple enough to micromanage to eliminate those first (because if i recall they dont gain migitation from synergy)

not that they couldnt afford to nerf it a little or nerf the synergy max out level

EDIT: early in the game even if you research the techs for shield bestowal and synergy hagers cost a good deal and as long as theres only one or two and a few beam defence platfoms itll die to just a cap or two. it be a different story if there was also a partially upgraded starbase but early in the game i dont think many people could leave that defence on all his exposed flanks so it would just be a matter of finding a weak spot

I've actually used a similar tactic but with a focus on hangar upgrades and culture upgrades to weaken enemy star systems and shut down reinforcements between stars. 80 Advent Bomber Squadrons can take out just about anything in the large star gravity well. The culture eats away at nearby planets while Im off decimating other star systems.

hhmmm i usually have 2 that are full hangers and 2 for full close range stuff

tho having them have nodes for culture is such a good i dea that i wonder why i didnt do something like that

First off I've enjoyed the thought that has gone into this post and the discussion that has followed. Its quality is a testament to the quality of the community and the game. I'd like to tie together some things I don't think have been addressed. 

1. These things only come together in very long games. Dampening these things huts the short and mid game survivability of the Advent - reducing their ability to cope with raids. 

2. This requires a highly clustered arrangement of tactical structures - which leaves much of the gravity well defenseless. Smart players take out the support structures and hangars from afar with bombers while their fleet takes out the planet and undefended structures, if they decide to engage at all.

3. It is incredibly expensive (in resources and construction time) to set up this kind of defense even in the end game - unless the advent are being feed by allies - this arrangement will be limited to a handful of worlds leaving the rest of the players worlds very vunerable to attack. 

4. In the long game this is the least of you worries - Advent culture should be dominating the star system squeezing planet productivity if not taking over planets outright. Its the weak Super Culture Starbases and the Economy Buff Starbases behind the front lines you have to find and destroy to win against the Advent in the long run. The Defensive Starbase you've described won't have much if any of the economy or culture upgrades that give Advent Players their real long term advantage. 

I have to disagree with Annatar11 that this is a problem. This might make things interesting at bottlenecks against an Advent Player but it hardly constitutes a game braking advantage that requires nerfing any of theses small advantages that combine well in very specific and unlikely circumstances. 

Its ok, I get what your throwing out. I just dont think people are thinking outside the SC/Typical Assault outload box.

I dont think they are ready for the wisdom.

I heavily agree. I've played several games (against the AI) and their bombers clear out my hangar defenses in seconds... I have four with all fighter support but that still wasn't enough, the hangar was destroyed. 

Furthermore, based on I what it seems, the point of these nerfs is so Advent defenses take as long as TEC defenses to destroy? Wouldn't that be a huge nerf since the point of all of these upgrades is so that Advent defenses are more sturdy? And therefore should take a lot longer to destroy?

Sigh, ok. This is not a NERF. Its a tweak. A minor one to add to that. Advent sturcutres will and would survives longer that any other races if what is suggested, is put into play. It would mellow out the outragous migitaition. You can not deny that 70-80% migitiation is a bit over the top. Even for an Shield reliant race.

Yall need to think past what attacking it, that is besides the point. Look past the fact you can fly by them, once again not the point of the OP.

Annatar, would it be easy enough to write a mod and/or make a video to demonstrate what you are suggesting. This would give the argument something visual to reference and show more specifically what you are intending.

Looking back at your math earlier. Keeping the exact numbers it is 2.5 times the time.
(3000 / 44) / (3000 / 110) = 110 / 44 = 2.5

I did some of my own math based on yours.
110 / 44 = 2.5
=>110 / (time multiplier) = (DPS)

DPS = 20 * 5.5 * (1 - max mitigation)

110 / (time multiplier) = 20 * 5.5 * (1 - max mitigation)
=>110 / [(time multiplier) * 20 * 5.5] = (1 - max mitigation)
=>max mitigation = 1 - (110 / ((time multiplier) * 20 * 5.5))
or
110 / (time multiplier) = 20 * 5.5 * (1 - max mitiagation)
=>110 = 20 * 5.5 * (1 - max mitigation) * (time multiplier)
=>time multiplier = 110 / (20 * 5.5 * (1 - max mitigation))

If you cut the max mitigation to 50%, will only take twice the time.
And if you cut the max mitigation to 33.3333...%, it will be 1.5 times the time.

Overall the current time multiplier of 2.5 does seem excessive.
Would either of the two time multipliers I solved for above be more appropriate?

I should make note that as I don't own Entrenchment yet, I only have the numbers presented in the forum to look at.

  im back the reason i said about the novolith is if the planet is gone the turets stop working alowing you to get rid of them an their boneuses one by one and as for the kostura i doun't have any exepirence with it other than the manul really the one time i used itit  failed my expection's so i never really tried it after that i had bean under the impresion that it destroyd orbital struchures compleatly. and the opining vid is terible a man in a chair very impresive not compaerd to the original but the new fetures are a dream so it kinda made up for it

-Ue_Carbon you are assuming the end game techs of both the Civic tree and Military tree. But at the same time you do not think the enemy would have access to the same level of tech?  Because they only need access to military tree to get shield mitigation debuffs!  Tec get it at tier 6, Vasari at tier 5! Compare that to Tier 6 in both Civic and Military in order to get mitigation this high, plus you need to research defense tree to get building shield and the aditional buff of the turret.

To me it looks like it's EASIER to get shield bypass than it is to get this high mitigation.  So the couter is already a lot easier than the thing being countered.  I don't think it needs to be made even easier, not using support cruiser is simply lazy on the part of the player, I don't wish to reward this laziness.

I will admit I dont know the Advent well. I was just going on what Ive have experienced and what Annatar and others have others have posted about numbers and such.

Ok well Advent gets 6% mitigation with culture from the civic tree, 2 techs at tier 2, 2 at tier 4 2 at tier 6. Thats 6 techs plus temple of communion research, 7 techs!  Then you need to get tier 6 in military by getting 2 research at tier 1, 2 at tier 2, 2 at tier 4 and finally 2 at tier 6.  The last 2 tech will give you 2% each, for 4% total.  So you end up with +10% mitigation after you research 7 civil and 6 military techs.  Then to shield your buildings you need to research hanger in defense tree, and another tech that gives near by buildings 750 hp shield.  We are up to 15 techs needed so far, now you mayw ant to get one more tech which gives additional 500 hp to turrets and stacking buff, so after 16 techs you have very tough turrets.

Now if you are TEC you can research your Cielo crusier prototype, and the designate target ability, 2 techs, and you give target -25% mitigation.

If you are Vasari, you can get simply Subverter prototype, which comes with it's ability Shield Disruption that gives you -10% shield mitigation and -25% Phase missile Block.

Personally, I think the Advent defences are fine.  I usually dont play Advent and when I have I have never used the Mass Disorientation ability so I cant speak to that, however, with a fully upgraded sb and full tac slots filled with beam turrets, repair stations, and hangars (2-3) I got my butt handed to me by an Unfair AI.  Basically (it was Advent as well) it came in with a full fleet of 8+ cap ships, destra crusaders, illuminators, guardians, and carriers and proceeded to wipe the floor with my defences.  It took a lot of losses but they managed to do it, and rather quickly too.  I guess what I'm getting at is that Advent defences are not impenetrable, just very powerful, something they deserve since the idea of their defences is synergy, just like with the rest of their forces.  An Advent sb or Advent turrets on their own are inherently weaker than their counterparts but when combined together (just like an Advent battleball) they become truly fearsome and tough to defeat.  I say leave the Advent defences alone, not only do the Advent need an area to be stronger than the other races but their synergistic (spelling?) effects go perfectly with the theme of the Advent.

Edit:

Not important but I just realized I spelled "defenses" wrong in that entire post .  I'm sure no one else cares but I thought I'd at least fix my mistake by pointing it out  .

Most of that is irrelevant and icing on the cake. You only need one tech: Synergy. The others make it a bit more of a pain, but Synergy is the main culprit and has no pre-reqs.

Cielos do damate taken, not mitigation. It's also 40%. And the problem with both of those "counters" is that they aren't really good at it. Cielos are way more effective on un-mitigated turrets and even not needed, and Subverters don't do anything. On mitigated turrets they make killing them faster, but it's still a lot slower than un-mitigated ones. Not to mention the Subverter also requires the full phase missile research line to be any sort of effective. And what do the Advent get?

I'm definitely agreeing with what you're saying here Annatar.  I played a game the other day where I had an asteroid next to a pirate base.  I'd only had time to throw in four beam platforms and a hangar at the base before it got raided by pirates since I wasn't paying attention to bounties.  My main fleet was a good 4 jumps away and I wasn't expecting it to be able to get there in time to make a difference.  I was expecting to see most of the defenses wiped out long before I could get any assistance in range, and probably lose the planet to siege frigs.  I was surprised that at the end of the battle, I had managed to get my entire main fleet all the way there, but on top of that, the one beam platform they had attacked the ENTIRE time still had about 300 shields left, and they didn't manage to take out a single thing in the system.

On a side note, I put in a starbase there after that, put in disorientation and meteor.  Now I just place all my brand new caps there and just let them level up because the pirates don't even get a chance to attack anything, they just sit there and spin in circles and get hit by meteors.

What?  So because the AI is stupid, and doesn't play like a human, the Advent defenses need a nerf?  Boy, I love the "logic" people come up with.  I got news for you - pirates could easily be held at bay BEFORE entrenchment ever came out, by simply building a mass of turrets on the side of the planet facing the phase lane where the pirates would be arriving.  In other words, pirates could always be beaten by simply doing what you just described.

What attacks turrets is irrelevant. Whether it's pirates or AI or players, they still last a lot longer through mitigation. Sure before you could hold off pirates with enough. Now you can do it with much fewer, even the largest raids.

So your point is that their new defense technologies shouldn't allow them to hold off such raids with "much fewer" turrets?  So what would you advocate?  "Slightly fewer?"

My point Kharma, wasn't that I could hold them off, what I was surprised about is that a large raid didn't even take out a single turret, much less cause any actual hull damage to it, especially when it was a rather lightly defended grav-well in the first place.  It also wasn't logic, it was an observation, I SAW it happen.  Has nothing to do with whether is was an AI or not.

My question was directed to Annatar.

I happen to think it has quite a lot to do with it.  An AI will mindlessly attack turrets.  A human will go around the turrets, or if he attacks them he will do it more intelligently (use anti-structure cruisers, bombers, etc).  I have said it before, I will say it again:  Don't suggest nerfs based on tests against the AI.

Annatar your funny. Everybody elses opinion or comment is irrelevent I happen to think astax posts were very relevant and to the point of the whole thread. First off to come up against a mass amounts of turrets and defenses like your describing takes a long time to build and ALOT of resources. You will hardly ever come across this. Couple that with all the labs and techs that it takes to make these defenses concrete. It may take a long time to kill one turret but the player must invest much more in building such a wall and put everything in one basket so to speak which is really better for you...less fleet to deal with.

The topic specifically says "Analysis of late-game Entrenchment Advent defenses".

Also:

Hmm:

this is crazy im an advent player  and i always view them as the type as "a strong defense is a strong offense" and so i like the way thier defenses are set up. but i have played against some of my friends when they were advent and i was something else and i never had a problem.(except for the vasrai since they dont have a real siege ship but i still got by them)