Blair Fraser Blair Fraser

Multiplayer Crashes

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Multiplayer Crashes

from Sins Forums

I apologize for the MP dumps. I've addressed this multiple times in other threads but they've been buried so it isn't because we are ignoring it or trying to hide it - its just impossible to comment on it everytime it reappears in a new thread. Tech support has also been in email contact with a variety of people (including some in this thread).

The MP bug is 1 of 2 major bugs we are aware of and its a sync bug. Statistically, it is very rare which is why it is so difficult for us to track down (we have yet to see it ourselves but we have something going out soon that will help us find it from those who do get it). Also, any multiplayer fixes are scheduled to go out in 1.1 not 1.04. They are in seperate code paths and completely seperate systems being worked on by completely seperate people. This isn't a matter of just throwing the fix into 1.04 and 1.04 development is not slowing down 1.1's development so don't feel we are wasting time on 1.04 (balance + misc) when the *real* bug is in 1.1 (multiplayer).

Now, to save you all a lot of headaches - the nature of the sync bug is that once you've had a game where it happens it is very unlikely you can recover from a MP save game. If you load the MP save game and continue to play you will crash again. You will then load a more recent save game and crash again. The crashes will come more and more frequently. If you see this behavior just start over as its very probably that its the sync bug and the crash is nothing to do with your machines, network, or drivers. If you don't see this behavior, its likely a driver problem or you are running out of memory or you are running a bad mod (at least based on the data we've collected through tech support).

As soon as 1.04 is out I am going to make a post looking for volunteers. I have a special 1.04 build that will track the synchronization info we need to track it down. Since we can't recreate it we need to have a few players who it happens to regularly to play 1.04 with this build and then send us their logs when it goes out of sync.

P.S Minidump is the generic term for a general crash - it could be anything and is not caused by any specific problem. We can decode the minidump to get useful information on the true nature of the crash.

technical
123,579 views 205 replies
Reply #76 from Sins Forums Top
Hmm, we can no longer edit our posts on the forum?Anyway, the crash was with the regular 1.04 exe. That's what prompted me to go here in the first place.


The crash with 1.04 is known. That is why there is a SinSyncFix exe out for testing.

Glad we cleared that up.

I don't know what 2130 CET means. Is that military time? (I am GMT-06:00)

I'll be around tonight and tomorrow.
Reply #77 from Sins Forums Top
I appreciate the effort put into solving this but ... come on, couldn't you think of a more complicated way to get those sync info? Replacing the executable and so on, it's really a little overkill I'd say.
And what's so hard about the whole thing anyway? StarCraft got it working fine 10 years ago. And today we need to manually replace executables and run special program versions? I'm a little disappointed.
CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #78 from Sins Forums Top
I appreciate the effort put into solving this but ... come on, couldn't you think of a more complicated way to get those sync info? Replacing the executable and so on, it's really a little overkill I'd say.And what's so hard about the whole thing anyway? StarCraft got it working fine 10 years ago. And today we need to manually replace executables and run special program versions? I'm a little disappointed.


Blizzard wrote sins of a solar empire 10 years ago? OMG SOMEONE CALL THE FBI, STARDOCK HACKED STARCRAFT AND RENAMED IT SINS ;P
Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top
Blizzard wrote sins of a solar empire 10 years ago? OMG SOMEONE CALL THE FBI, STARDOCK HACKED STARCRAFT AND RENAMED IT SINS


Totally not what he meant. He was talking about all the steps needed instead of just clicking on the download and it sending the files to the right place.

All I need to do is drag the exe to my Sins main folder and let it replace the old one and then delete the user.settings for this to work right?

Me and two buddies got together tonight to try it and one of us got the minidump... I didn't see any of this red writing you speak of though...
Did I install the exe. right?
Reply #80 from Sins Forums Top
Blizzard wrote sins of a solar empire 10 years ago? OMG SOMEONE CALL THE FBI, STARDOCK HACKED STARCRAFT AND RENAMED IT SINSTotally not what he meant. He was talking about all the steps needed instead of just clicking on the download and it sending the files to the right place.All I need to do is drag the exe to my Sins main folder and let it replace the old one and then delete the user.settings for this to work right?Me and two buddies got together tonight to try it and one of us got the minidump... I didn't see any of this red writing you speak of though...Did I install the exe. right?


the red writing only occurs if you actually experience the synch crash issue..
Reply #81 from Sins Forums Top
CET = Central European Time. It's currently GMT+1, while it's GMT+2 in periods due to daylight savings time.

Edit: Huh, this time I could edit. Weird.
Reply #82 from Sins Forums Top
MadTim,

If you followed all the instructions, got the minidump, but did not get the results Ironclad speaks of, it means the crash you encountered was not due to the sync bug. What's left is:

-the pathfinding bug
-a crash due to your hardware
-a crash due to your software (i.e. video drivers)

Try sending your minidump file to [email protected], explain that you were using this exe, and hopefully they can help you find out what this crash was due to.

-HM
Reply #83 from Sins Forums Top
I was talking about working netcode. Games ship with working netcode for over 10 years now. Why does Sins have so much trouble with it? And why is it so difficult to solve when nearly every multiplayer capable game in the last 10 years already did it right?
Reply #84 from Sins Forums Top
MegaVolt,

Please, just think a bit. Do you honestly believe that games that are ten years old have the most robust networking code for today's PCs and Internet lines? Developers and programmers are constantly refining their software in an attempt to bring the best performance to its users as possible. Most times this benefits us all. But with every 10 steps forward, there's an unforeseen step back when things don't quite work right. Especially considering the fact that PCs and software are infinitely more complex than they were ten years ago.

It sounds like Ironclad has this bug fixed, but they are taking just a bit more time to be sure. Would you rather they rushed this, then they (or the community) discovered the problem was still there? Be patient, let the professionals do their job, and this will be squashed properly.

-HM
Reply #85 from Sins Forums Top
This isn't a matter of just throwing the fix into 1.04 and 1.04 development is not slowing down 1.1's development so don't feel we are wasting time on 1.04 (balance + misc) when the *real* bug is in 1.1 (multiplayer).
.


Does that mean that I have to have 1.1 to solve this problem or can I just have 1.4?
Reply #86 from Sins Forums Top
Does that mean that I have to have 1.1 to solve this problem or can I just have 1.4?


Ironclad will release this hotfix as a separate patch once they're sure it does the trick. It will be a required download for everyone.
Reply #87 from Sins Forums Top
Ironclad will release this hotfix as a separate patch once they're sure it does the trick. It will be a required download for everyone.


Do you know when?
Reply #88 from Sins Forums Top
Overloard: the answer, as Annatar said, is, "Ironclad will release this hotfix as a separate patch once they're sure it does the trick."

-HM
Reply #89 from Sins Forums Top
I was talking about working netcode. Games ship with working netcode for over 10 years now. Why does Sins have so much trouble with it? And why is it so difficult to solve when nearly every multiplayer capable game in the last 10 years already did it right?


Technology and software changes I do not find it all that far fetched.
Reply #90 from Sins Forums Top
Also, no one said to replace the EXE. I renamed it and just manual load that one when I want to play using it. Or you could rename the original one and then replace it when its time to update.
Reply #91 from Sins Forums Top
Ironclad will release this hotfix as a separate patch once they're sure it does the trick. It will be a required download for everyone.


Do you know when?


Read reply #62.
Reply #92 from Sins Forums Top
Does that mean that I have to have 1.1 to solve this problem or can I just have 1.4?


Yep... I quit trying to figure this out...
Me and my buds are planning to just reinstall the game tonight and lan the out of the box version.

We didn't start getting these stupid crashes until a few updates ago.

I'm in the same boat as you. I was hoping that last update would have fixed what ever is screwing this game up for us but its still there.

Reply #93 from Sins Forums Top
Played with Edix, and no problems arose. I've successfully played one single game with 1.04, but a handful that have crashed, so the rate of failure looks better for the fixed one so far!
Reply #94 from Sins Forums Top
Yep... I quit trying to figure this out...Me and my buds are planning to just reinstall the game tonight and lan the out of the box version.We didn't start getting these stupid crashes until a few updates ago.I'm in the same boat as you. I was hoping that last update would have fixed what ever is screwing this game up for us but its still there.



More likely that you always had them and had not seen them yet. And no you do not have to wait for 1.1 soon as the hotfix is released there will be an update before 1.1. This has been said many times by IC.

Also, if you can't figure out how to run an EXE how the heck are you able to play any games at all?
Reply #95 from Sins Forums Top
I think it bears repeating that a minidump is simply a program crash. There are many reasons why you might get it. This particular multiplayer minidump, referred to as "the sync bug", is one of many reasons you might get the error.

So just because you are getting a minidump error does not mean that the problem referred to in this thread is YOUR problem.

-HM
Reply #96 from Sins Forums Top
MegaVolt,Please, just think a bit. Do you honestly believe that games that are ten years old have the most robust networking code for today's PCs and Internet lines?


Today many people still play StarCraft. Guess what, it works just fine for todays PCs and Internet lines. The principle of the Internet hasn't changed the last 10 years. So the solution that was best 10 years ago is still best (and netcode is not an area were a new found algorithm will give revolutionary results).
Reply #97 from Sins Forums Top
I have been having a horrible time with minidumps during MP, I will be doing the proactive thing and install the “troubleshoot” update.

My neighbour, brother in-law and a friend (that is everyone I know personally who owns and plays Sins Mp) all are having this problem and all, including myself, have never been able to finish a mp game due to crashes. This leads me to think one of two things, one being that the snyc problem is fairly common, or two , this game is prone to crash which = flawed. I should note that I have a brand new system (4 months old) that has all the appropriate updates and drivers.

The four of us bought Sins almost unanimously to play mp with each other and are starting to get frustrated, I am willing (at my own expense of effort and time) to help troubleshoot with the tools offered in this thread but my other buddies are ditching the game until further notice.

I hope IC has a real “lesson learned” moment because this magnitude of error is not acceptable. Unfortunately the excuse “unexpected” or “hardware/software compatibility” may explain the situation but does not lessen the extent IC is at fault.

What I have read in this thread has helped me regain some respect for IC but the real test will be how expeditious and effective the patch will be.
Reply #98 from Sins Forums Top
MegaVolt, first, if you think Starcraft networking is always fine, you're sadly mistaken. Lots of people have complained about lag, a common performance problem with older networking techniques. To insinuate that Starcraft's network code is perfect and every game developer out there should make their code exactly like theirs is beyond an ignorant position.

But this is just getting stupid. If you want to play Starcraft, then go play Starcraft. Sins is a different game. When you make something different, even though the underlying principles are the same, changes are made, and whenever changes are made, there is the possibility that mistakes will be made.

Come back and speak to me when you have some concept of how to code and program, but until then, please stop arguing a point that you have not bothered to educate yourself about.

-HM
Reply #99 from Sins Forums Top
carlsagan1,

I sympathize that you're having problems, I really do. But if you think a bit, you'll realize that it's clear Ironclad simply didn't encounter this bug in all their years of development, because if they did, they would've fixed it before release. It's obviously trickier than one might initially believe.

I don't think any of us can rightly say whether the bug is common or not. All we can say is it happens to some people, and it doesn't happen to others. I have played online with three friends regularly and we have never encountered it. And we've each played at other times with one or two of the three others not present, and never encountered it.

It is possible that you have had this sync issue, but maybe it's another issue. Remember that the minidump simply indicates a crash, and it's possible someone you're playing with is having some other issue, but it will (sadly) break the game for everyone. The only way to be sure is to install the test exe Blair has made available, clear your settings file, and see if the red text appears when you crash.

-HM
Reply #100 from Sins Forums Top
I have been having a horrible time with minidumps during MP, I will be doing the proactive thing and install the “troubleshoot” update. My neighbour, brother in-law and a friend (that is everyone I know personally who owns and plays Sins Mp) all are having this problem and all, including myself, have never been able to finish a mp game due to crashes. This leads me to think one of two things, one being that the snyc problem is fairly common, or two , this game is prone to crash which = flawed. I should note that I have a brand new system (4 months old) that has all the appropriate updates and drivers.The four of us bought Sins almost unanimously to play mp with each other and are starting to get frustrated, I am willing (at my own expense of effort and time) to help troubleshoot with the tools offered in this thread but my other buddies are ditching the game until further notice.I hope IC has a real “lesson learned” moment because this magnitude of error is not acceptable. Unfortunately the excuse “unexpected” or “hardware/software compatibility” may explain the situation but does not lessen the extent IC is at fault. What I have read in this thread has helped me regain some respect for IC but the real test will be how expeditious and effective the patch will be.


Have you tried to play MP with your buddies in different orders of 3 instead of all 4 of you. A B C, A B D, A C D, B D C ETC to see witch one of you is the one getting the sync bug. It has been my experience that it is only one person out of the group that gets it. Such is for me I am that one.

As much for lessons learned, they have stated that they have not reproduced this issue internally in there own testing. This includes the huge beta test they did. So my question to you what lesson do you think they will learn from that. "You next time better use your psychic powers to know all bugs in the game." ? Seriously, man WTF?

You should also note that there is two downloads. The one we are on is www.ironcladgames.com/sins/SinsSyncFix.zip.
This is the build that everyone that is testing is using and this is the one that has the possible fix in it. Everyone that has used it, to my knowledge, has had good MP games.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. This is an entertainment industry and not life or death if you seriously have a problem with bugs in games then get a new hobby.