Racial Balance as of Beta 6A

question 1
I think Drath is just way too powerful. In my immense game with 9 AIs, just after I researched the war profiting techs they greatly increased their incomes like 1000bc/week while I just paid about 300 cashes to convince AI to make war. For that reason, Drath needs no population techs, no economy techs, no reproduction techs, and no trade techs at all.

question 2
Not find any of it. I have tried so far most races except Krynn, Drengin and Korath.

question 3
Krynn and Terrans always rock in my games. Arcean looks shy because of their little influence area. Thalan seems okey after 6a. Altarian and Drath must get some luck or your favor to avoid being KO by other AIs. Korx is another candidate for the poorest AI.

question 4
I believe most races are okey now with a good strategy, yet the AIs need to be enchanced further. One thing I would like to see is the minor AIs should
stop constructing their useless influence bases and save money to purchase more military techs or even ships from other nation. That's the most resaonable way to keep them "independent".

Just a note:
Keep in mind that so far only the Drengin AI has received the latest updates, the other races are still playing with the AI algorithms from DA, IIRC.

Thanks for the great feedback, guys!  Keep it coming...we'll get this puppy polished to a shine

The Thalans definitely need some better starter buildings. Heck, ANY starter buildings (the double-damned Embassy doesn't count). As the OP said, if you don't get a Precursor Library to plunk the Hyperion Matrix on, you're screwed. By the time you research a factory or lab (which you won't be able to build anyway without going bankrupt), the other races have already got advanced weapons, big fleets and have probably wiped you out. I'd like to see some Iconian/Krynn style jack-of-all-trades type one per planet improvements that are cheap to build and give enough production, research and econ boost to make surviving the early game more than a matter of pure luck.

Also, AI should take the Altarian super ability into consideration when declaring war. Right now I don't think it costs any extra to bribe someone to attack them, even though that might get them into a war with 4 or 5 opponents. In fact that's my favourite exploit right now; if I've got a powerful aggressive neighbour who looks like he's going to attack me soon, I bribe him to go after the Altarians. He'll soon be far too busy to worry about me

Okay, I haven't actually gotten time to play the newest beta yet (Shame, I know...but work happens...) so I didn't think that I'd have anything to offer to this thread....however, I'm right there with others on the Thalans, as it appears they haven't changed. Without serious luck, they are pretty much impossible to play - which is a shame, because I find them very interesting.

Thank you to everyone who has posted! Please continue to do so!
And thank you to BoogieBac. This game is great already, and I'm sure I speak for pretty much everyone when I say we can't wait to see how awesome it is when you guys are done with it!

Two things I forgot to suggest in the intital post: Super Spy is clearly the weakest super ability. One way I think it could be made useful without making it too strong is to have it quarter the build time for the counter-espionage center, the same way super hive quarters build times for factories. This would have the following ramifications:

It becomes reasonable for every colony to build one. If every colony has built one, the Super Spy race (Krynn in most games) does not need to use defensive spys. On suicidal games against several AI opponents, I'm pretty sure that most players only use spys defensively with the specific exception of placing them on enemy farms for one turn to reduce population (which I think is valid and shouldn't be changed, though it would be nice if the AI would try it as well). If you didn't have to use your espionage spending to defensively counter the spies of multiple suicidal AIs, you could focus all of your espionage on a single target. That might be enough to truly make a difference and make espionage into an important strategy for Super Spy races (which kind of seems like the point of having a super spy ability). It would also help the Krynn, who as I've stated could use a bit of a boost.

I'll preface the second suggestion by responding Xiao Xia's concern about the Drath being too strong. War Profiteering is nice, and an extra $1,000/turn is nothing to dismiss, but many strong players have a per-turn surplus of $100,000 by mid-game. Some players have incomes that go much higher. I'm not particularly good at getting such revenue (largely since I never play maps larger than large and rarely over medium), but even in a 5 player small map 95 turn tech victory I just played my surplus was over 4,000/turn by the end of the game. That's not a lot, but hopefully it shows that 1,000/turn is not game breaking. The Drath also do not have Concepts of Malice in their tech tree, with it's terribly powerful galactic wonders (Mind Control Center, Artificial Slave Center, to a lesser extent No Mercy Invasion Center), so they need some strong unique techs to compensate. I love the Drath as they currently are.

So then, to my second idea: The Korx have a unique tech that lets them build a galactic wonder (I think it's called the Mercenary Academy) that gives +2% war profiteering. I think 2% is too low, since in tiny, small (or even medium maps without a lot of habitable planets) they would be better off just building another stock exchange. It's not as easy for them to keep the other races at war as it is for the Drath, lacking diplomatic bonuses and the super manipulater ability. War profiteering also has diminishing returns as you conquer more of the galaxy, which is fine, but it does reduce the overall value of war profiteering. I'm also pretty sure no one will view the Korx currently as the strongest race, even if most will agree they are decent. If this galactic wonder gave them +5% war profiteering instead it would be more meaningful, without making the Korx too strong.

Oh, and two last things. I had a typo in the OP where, when I re-read it, it looked like I was commanding the board to comment on the races I hadn't played. Sorry about that - I somehow left out "I can't" before "comment" while going too fast. Also, I didn't type in that the Thalan need better ground combat technology, but they really do, especially with their low populations.

Whether the Krynn are weak or not depends on their play style. For aggressive strategies, they are kind of weak. On the other hand, they are the best race around for an influence strategy, and the hardest race to beat with influence. If they were to use the Thalan "pink blob of doom" strategy, the would be an amazingly difficult opponent.

I do agree the the superspy ability is just plain silly on large maps or bigger.

Scincerely,

[email protected]

On a related note, I think that sometimes percentage based bonuses are broken. Planet quality comes to mind. If something gives a PQ bonus it should have a one-tile minimum. Otherwise you often end up with a bonus that doesn't actually do anything, or adds tiles only to the rare really high PQ worlds -- the ones that need them the least.

Other super abilities need work as well. Super Spy can actually be very useful from getting out from under the "spy on every planet" mega event or for winning a spywar of attrition against an opponent (or several) with good economies. Right now the Super Hive ability is completely broken because the Thalans don't have any factories to build and can't afford them when they do finally research them. Super Adapter is uber-weak, as has been mentioned repeatedly other races get effectively half of the Super Adapter in addition to a real super ability. And the Drengin super ability is utterly useless once you get past the opening part of the game. The only way I've found to make it work is to beeline to the invasion techs and start conquering before the others get to the point that they can crush any number of Super Dumbinators. Either the ships have to scale with tech or the whole thing needs to be revamped, possibly as a massive bonus to military production in wartime.

~snickers~ I just love it when people keep that term going

As for the OP...I'm a bit foggy right now on specifics on the various weak/strong in the hands of the AI/Player as it's been a bit since I've last played (pre-6a).

I do know that the Iconians seem to always get monkey-stomped in every game I play, they never seem to be a good contender. It's sad too since when I've played them, their fleet strength (via HPs) is just godly. I'm not sure if the AI isn't exploiting that for all it's worth or what...

The AI as the Torians, Dregin, Korath and Yor have been pretty strong in my games I think (medium map, max races). The ~clears throat~ pink blob of doom is in it's fullest glory in these cramped areas, so I must toss the Thalan into the ring as well.

I often play as the Thalan, Kyrnn or Korath with small stints into the Torians. I've tried to make myself go back through the races and re-play them with any of their fixes/changes though.

Sadly, too many of my recent games have been as a custom race...which are able to exploit the lack of a factory tech by the Thalan by picking up Interstellar Construction tech. I haven't checked if this is still possible in 6A or not...I sort of hope it isn't possible anymore.

Korath. Dark Influence was a real powerful building. Planets began to fall like dominoes once I got that tech. Once a planet flipped, I'd build/rush buy one on that planet and etc...things just scaled WAy out of proportion. For a heavily militaristic race, you could really go Influence-Hungry while keeping a fully-loaded fist backing it.

I'd had a concern about Dark Influence, but I've never played as the Korath and so didn't want to question it. I know that by itself it outpowers every unique influence building the Krynn get with it's +200% bonus. Have you tried it on suicidal? I'd think the saving weakness of it there would be that the AIs would react to the influence threat by attacking militarily, which might cause enough trouble to counterbalance the benefit. Additionally, the Korath are a natural to select Evil as an alignment for the MCC, but the MCC drastically reduces the likelyhood of enemy planets influence flipping.

Do you think that an influence based strategy with the Korath is too strong? Or is it in the range of "strong, but still reasonably balanced"?

I've had good games as the Yor, Drath, and Krynn.
I cannot ever get off to a good start as the Arceans. Their economy seems really weak at the beginning, and they have by far the longest recovery time from crash of any race. The speed penalty is pretty bad. I am always out-colonized. I want to play these guys, but it just isn't any fun.
I find the Thalans to be pretty dull, honestly. You can't build anything for the longest time (I play with very slow research). I consider the planets filled with embassies to be cheesy, but on the bright side, with no buildings and lots of colonies, my economy is generally very healthy.
I have trouble with the Drengin and Korath, but that's my unwillingness to be a jerk and attack everyone for no reason. I think if I roleplayed them, they'd be good.
I'm okay with the Torians. I'm not sure whether I like the fact that their unique structures are obsoleted so quickly. At this point I don't bother building central mines or harvesters, because later they'll be taking up valuable space.
I'm not sure what to make of the Altarians. Their tech tree is a mess, and they basically borrow all the cool stuff from the Drath. I'd rather just play the Drath.

I think the Iconians are quite strong, even if they run at 80% economy that's still better then most races 100%.

The Iconians are always amongst the most powerful AIs in my games. Decent tech, lots of influence and a big military.

I think that handing a powerful tool for influence flipping to a race that is inherently quite militaristic gives them a second weapon...not an offset to the -influence they get from their factories. I wouldn't straight-up attempt an influence victory with them, I'd pursue a military victory that is supplemented with a healthy influence flip.

I swear though that their military/social production capacity is strong via the MANY % buildings they can also pick up...not to even count out the incinerator...

Beta6 and earlier however I rarely saw the Korath build a DI building...

Korath, IMHO, hands down is my biggest threat in the galaxy...or even my favorite race to play the militaristic freak.

Arceans, with that ambush shot were ok in DA, but I think they are too gimped at the starting gate to be a threat.

@Seth
What I've found to be my best strat with the Thalans is to take Creativity, keep your research at a minimum to still be having a time until completion and let Creativity proc your way to the 3rd tech of factories. The pink blob of doom strat is only a viable option in the right conditions (cramped quarters). Playing the all-factory run once you have the 3rd factory tech (dont dare build the I or II) will get you sling shotted well into the lead. It's just getting to that point that is hard lol.

When I play the Korath I always end up evil but unless I'm in dire financial trouble I don't build the MCC in order to take full advantage of Dark Influence. I think that's my favourite improvement in the game.

Loupdinour, I agree that the Thalans need creativity and that keeping it at as low a percentage as gives a time to completion is an important tactic, but have you found going for their factories to be effective on Suicidal, or only on lower difficulty level? I've never been able to win on suicidal as the Thalans without trading for factory tech from another race. Even then, it was a much harder game than any other race I've tried.

Technically, the Drengin AI is inherited by the Korath and Yor in many respects, so all those races are significantly improved. I've been quite impressed, in general... I've been playing a four way game against those three. Keep it up, Brad!

As for your questionaire:

1) I haven't given all the races a fair shake, yet, but the Drengin and Korath seem like they get their military technology alarmingly fast. That said, I haven't played them for AGES. Other than that, I haven't noticed any severely overpowered races

2) Again, I haven't managed to play all races in their latest incarnations, but I'm not noticing any overwhelming losers, either. The Arcean tech tree doesn't lend itself to particularily dramatic advantages, but does cement them as a very solid defensive race.

And I'd disagree about the Thalans being crippled... carefully managed, they get some extraordinarily powerful technology. However, they suffer through the early game quite badly.

Their main problem stems from a lack of initial infrastructure (which is very problematic with tech trading off... and you guys made the industrial revolution techs untradable, didn't you?) They make fantastic use of the few planets they can manage early on, but they're always forced to fight from an underdog position because they can't get moving fast enough. Their main problems are economic... between their low population growth, lack of farm techs, high maintainence, and the difficulty of researching (which relly stops them from getting economy and efficiency techs early enough) put them between a rock and a hard place.

My suggestion is to give them a farming branch, as well as a very basic economy building to tide them over until they can get their hands on the economy techs. That'll let them make use of initial tech tiles better, as well as let them get their incredibly expensive research and industrial buildings into play earlier. I'd also give very moderate increases in output to the L2 and L3 production buildings, so that they become more powerful than the research options granted to the other races.

I'd also hope that the other races get their own new good and evil techs, instead of the generic concepts of malice and such (with the ridiculously overpowered mind control center). It's a little late in development, I guess, but it would also help add even more flavour to the races. For example, a good only tech for the Drengin could be "Reconcilliation" which would give large influence and diplomatic bonuses. After all, if the DRENGIN could be reformed... can't anyone?

3) I'd like to hold off this one until I've seen more of what Brad is going to do with the AI. As it stands, only the Drengin, Korath, and Yor have seen any substantial AI updates (and DAMN, are they ever nasty) so slamming the other races for not being able to handle their new tech trees (especially the Thalan) seems unfair.

4) The Krynn are perfect for what they do... their new tech tree really emphasizes their religious underpinnings, and the uniqueness of their situation. The Arceans really show their strong traditional and military structure, too (the stellar forge was a BRILLIANT idea, by the way. Having ships from a specific planet be BETTER really effects my fleet composition and construction choiced. I wish this mechanic was explored further...!) Also worthy of mention are the Drengin, Korath, Iconians, and Yor! The Korx don't seem quite mercenary enough, though (I'd love to see their out of control capitalism emphasized a bit more)

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. Hopefully Stardock will find it useful.

StarStriker1, I'm glad you've found the Thalan to be viable.. if you don't mind, have you had success with them on suicidal? If so (or even if you haven't), in your experience have they played as strongly as the other races?

Playing mostly on crippling and painful as Arceans or custom Arcean-like race and the Thalan AI are often one of the most powerful in the game. It may have something to do with my galaxy set up (rare habitable planets in immense galaxy with very slow research), but even if they only have 1 planet (with other empires having 3-4 on average) they can field a very large starfleet and seem to advance in tech quite rapidly relative to others for only having that one planet. I've not played the Thalans so I can't give an informed opinion on how they are from that perspective.

The Arcean adjustments have helped them a good deal. I think they will just be a slow starter race. Although too much aggression might cause a coalition to form, I've found that going for a planetary invasion tech as early as possible and then taking a minor or two is a viable strategy with the new economic model.

Terrans are an easy race to play as they always have been in my book. They just have so many viable victory paths-they can do it all. I rarely play them anymore because victory had become too predictable.

The Drath have also become a consistently powerful AI player. The Drengin seem okay as do the others.

Of course the Thalans are going to be relatively strong when everyone only has 3 or 4 planets, because Thala with all their Galactic Achievements is a very strong planet. But if everyone has 30 or 40 or 100 planets it doesn't matter how good Thala is. The output of any one planet will be insignificant compared to the empire as a whole, and the other Thalan colonies won't be contributing anything but influence while the other races are building up a huge population base and widespread infrastructure. It also makes the Thalans far more vulnerable to decapitation than any other race. Take out Thala and there's nothing left. No research, no production, no more ability to put up any resistance whatsoever.

Nah, I don't play on those difficulties. I don't like messing about with the game mechanics the way Wyndstar does, and I like being able to mess with slightly nonoptimal strategies. I also dislike cheating opponents. The only difficulty setting I usually use is "Tough".

If I recall the conversation Wyndstar had with me, the Thalans (and their slow start, big finish strategy) works quite nicely on that difficulty, but can't get off the ground fast enough for a Suicidal game. The enemy simply is coming for you before you've gotten out of the starting gate on that difficulty. From what I remember, the problem with them is not that they aren't a viable race on normal settings, but that they are incapable of competing on the higher difficulties, where time is of the essence.

@rls669
The Thalans are capable of getting a lot more mileage out of a small empire than the other races are, which is good: the Thalans are almost guaranteed a small empire... they simply can't afford a large one early on! I've played games where the enemy has something like 15-25 planets, and I only had 4... yet that was enough to compete reasonably well once I got past the crippled early economy.

Well that is exactly the problem 1000bc on a small to large map is way too unbalanced. It equals about 5-10 good eco world for end game. Especially small maps -when all you could have is 3-4 systems

1. Like others, see the Drath and Terrans and being among the best player races because of money & diplomacy. With the introduction of the negative starting bonuses certain races with strong positives in the same ability are able to exploit certain others especially well: Drath>Thalan or Krynn>Korx, for example. I've actually found Arceans to be great if you're patient and don't get a terrible starting position - once Super Warrior really kicks in you're laughing, and conquest* later in the game makes up for slow start to research and gives, albeit on a random basis, those handy engine techs. Also, going Evil with them is insane, free starbase upgrades + light constructor module means you can turtle like nobody's business should you wish.

*is it just me, or are Cathedrals of Valour just not working?


2. Thalans, but only with tech trading off. Nothing to add to all that's been said already.

3. Terrans and Korx are just refusing to research Space Weapons and fill their shipyards with Space Miners, so they're the weakest right now. Torians are best at early game and reasonably clever on invasions even pre-upgrade. No one race always dominates my games, and now that I've turned surrendering off the Altarians have become a little more formidable with an invasion-and-battleship heavy strategy in the mid-late game, once they get all the requisite techs, so it's mostly going well.

4. AI-wise: Drengin, Korath, Yor, Torian, Iconian, Krynn, Drath, Altarian are more-or-less making sense as enemies even if some feel unfinished. Terran and Korx would be doing ok if they built any military worth speaking of. Apart from this, Arceans and Thalans are weakest opponents, presumably because the AI has the hardest time handling their particular deficits. So 8/12 qualify as "just right" as opponents currently.
Human-wise: Love the Drath & Arceans as stated above and are good apart from small tech tree problems. Krynn feel very true to background. Drengin & Korath also good. Less sure about others as I haven't played many games with them.

DarkMadMax, on a small map where each empire has 3-4 planets, 11% war profiteering probably won't generate anywhere near 1,000/turn. The empires at war would have to have 10,000/turn. War profiteering income scales up with galaxy size just like normal income. It's nice, but you can make a whole lot more off of the MCC, which the Drath don't have in their tech tree.

Two quick points:
1) I only tested the latest patch on suicidal. Results are skewed for that difficulty.

2) I only play with tech trading off. Only with tech trading off do I feel that I can properly gauge the strengths and weaknesses of each Race's specific tech tree.


Q1 - any races too strong?
The Terrans actually feel a little strong to me, whether as a player or when the AI controls them. They get all the advantages of the old tech tree, plus a few new techs thrown in for good measure. Access to the MCC and still having all of the morale bonuses in the tree (and gravity accelerators) AND all the diplomacy techs (SCC) means that on the higher levels the terrans have the most strategies available, making them the easiest. AND they now get a speed boost. Wow.

The altarians also need mention. While they don't seem too strong in the AIs hands, and there ARE some weaknesses in the current tech tree (no MCC) - they also seem tailor made for my particular play style. I can crush 9 AIs the fastest with the Altarians on any setting in the current build. Go for the Dark Energy...
This probably does not mean that they are unbalanced, just that they happen to augment exactly how I prefer to play, but because they DO feel tailor made for my strategies, it is hard for me to get a read on their "normal" strength.


Q2 - any races too weak?
Three come to mind.
The Thalans. When they are in the game, I have to race with the other AIs to see who will knock these useless idiots out of the game first. They can sit there with embassies all day long, it doesn't stop transports/spore ships from wiping their worlds in the first 40 turns. On larger games where they have a chance to develop their worlds... they STILL lose big because they fall in such a huge research hole through the first year. Taking Thalan opponents basically lowers the difficulty level by 1 race, AND playing as the Thalans I still haven't been able to win on Suicidal against 9 opponents (medium map, no tech trading). I may just be no good... if you can do it, I'd love to see how.

The Korx. I like the Korx, but they seem to have a surprisingly hard time making money in the early game. Mostly, they aren't very happy, which means lower tax rates, and trade routes - which are better for them - are still a fragile source of income. The Korx feel like they need more of an economy boost, or a morale boost, or both - to play them as the merchants they are supposed to be. They have a good econ building, but only 1 per planet hurts them vs. anyone that can have worlds of stock markets. Also, the 2% war profiteering bonus seems to do next to nothing in most of my games, although the concept is cool. Otherwise, balance for this race seems fine... they just need (a lot) more money!

The Iconians. My problem with these guys is also money/morale. In combat, those living hull ships and decent weaponry make the capital ships fearsome. But you need to get there. The AI seems lethargic as the Iconians, and the lack of early game money gives me expansion problems. Their super ability can actually hurt them because if you colonize fast the debt spiral can sink you, making everything even MORE difficult.


Q4 - Who is just right?
I really like the balance on the Arceans, Yor, Torians, Drath and Drengin as they currently stand. I haven't tested the Korath or Krynn enough to know either way. The Altarians seem fine (maybe even a little weak) when played by the AI... but I assume that will change.

I have noticed the Drengin AI pulling some cool tricks... actually using influence starbases to expand the range on its ships... slower more purposeful expansion, and I swear a time or two it looked like they were trying to use an all-factory strategy, which would be killer if the AI could pull it off. I can't say I'm overly impressed with the delay in invading worlds, the AI still seems to destroy defenders, then wait several turns to land transports... but that is more of a minor thing (and a tendency/quirk I LOVE to exploit)


Hope the feedback helps,
~ Wyndstar