archpsi

different replays of flaks vs LRM and then mixed fleet vs lrm only

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different replays of flaks vs LRM and then mixed fleet vs lrm only

from Sins Forums
first 4 replays are garda vs LRM
5th is illuminators vs defense.
last part is discussion about clusterwarheads

replay 1:

I made a map to demonstrate garda vs LRM (garda is the worse flak price wise and LRM seems to be the best price wise) after seeing that people continue to totally ignore posts which state flak as a counter to LRM.

This is just a demonstration of the power of flaks vs LRM's, I did require micro to pull this off, however I could have maybe improved the micro quite a bit (e.g. I moved all of them instead of the one being focus fired, I moved them at the start too far out) and a lot was just shift queuing movement.

Worse flak (stat wise the garda is not as good as the defense, Sentinel for its cost. sentinel gets aoe laser later on, so you have to take that into account when comparing flaks) vs best LRM (stat wise the tec LRM is the cheapest for dps)


fleet make up.
10 LRM's: 2500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 40 supply.
vs
5 garda's: 1875 credits, 200 metal, 125 crystal and 20 supply.
outcome
10 dead lrm, 2 garda alive.

the cpu that barely microed didnt do so well.

link
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R06Q7GV2

this also demonstrates how effective micro can be in this game.

replay 2:
7 flaks vs 10 LRM, no micro at all.

fleet make up:
10 LRM's: 2500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 40 supply.
vs
7 garda's: 2625 credits, 280 metal, 175 crystal and 28 supply. (selling 120 metal and 25 crystal at lowest sell price is 290 credits).

outcome:
10 dead lrm, 3 garda alive (one barely, under 80 hp or so).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4UU57U2G

replay 3:

mixed fleet vs 49 lrm.

49 LRM vs 21 flaks and 20 LRM. (was supposed to be 50, but cant be bothered doing it again for one more).
mixed fleet: 12875 credits, 1640 metal, 1025 crystal and 164 supply.
vs
LRM fleet: 12250, 1960 metal, 980 crystal and 196 supply.

outcome: 10 flaks alive (one barely).

http://files.filefront.com/mixedfleetrecord/;9672984;/fileinfo.html


replay 4: only 4 minutes long.

just for fun :).

mixed fleet vs 50 lrm.

50 LRM vs 20 LRM and 55 scouts (if you convert metal and crystal into credits, 30 LRM = 55.5 scouts, ignoring costs to tech to LRM).
roughly equal costs, bit more for LRM.
50 LRM: 200 supply.
20 LRM and 55 scouts: 190 supply.

outcome: from the mixed fleet 8 scouts and 20 LRM alive, 50 dead from LRM fleet.

http://files.filefront.com/scout2record/;9673197;/fileinfo.html

I just did this test for fun, please try to avoid mass producing scouts, they are not worth it, flaks can be used vs a combined force of LRM, fighters/bombers, siege and have much better survivability (used as tanks vs pirates/rebels..etc).

replay 5:
10 defense vs 10 illuminators

10 illuminators: 3500 credits, 500 metal, 400 crystal and 60 supply
vs
10 defense: 3500 credits, 400 metal, 200 crystal and 30 supply (could have made it 11-12 and not 10).


outcome:
10 dead illuminator, 7 alive defense (one barely).

http://files.filefront.com/illumvsdefenserecord/;9674236;/fileinfo.html

clusterwarheads

I made a mod where the LRM's started with clusterwarheads and except for that everything was identical (flaks got no upgrades at all in anyway)

did the exact same test as replay 2, got the following results
10 dead LRM, 2 flak alive.

the replay crashes sins, if I try running it without the mod enabled.

29,386 views 67 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
LRMs do almost no damage to Flak. That's why people advocate flak as the solution to LRMs, and why people are ignoring the reason LRMs are powerful. These tests that are performed are hardly useful at determining ANYTHING. They're just showing what we already knew statwise, and are NOT indicative of real game play.LRMs are good because of high ff damage at long range. So do you target Flaks? No. Flaks have insanely high hp for their dps potential, they are short range, fast units.You target everything except the flaks, then run away your LRMs. Even huge numbers of flaks cannot kill a capital ship (no joke).For instance, if they have a mixed flak/light frigate/etc. army, kill all the light frigates/etc first, then attack the capital ship, running your lrms that get ffed.Flaks, while having high hp, do not do great dps vs lrms (as you can clearly see in the replay). So, the two forces are very slowly grinding away at each other. So the long range ff unit should not be sitting there doing nothing with its dps. Just shoot at the capital ship, force it to run, then have YOUR capital ship destroy the flaks (which cannot damage it).Fun fun.


One of the reasons I keep saying to use a mixed force in other threads and not only flaks, is to make sure the force can be used offensively.

The flaks do not need to kill the capital ships, killing LRM's is what you build them for.

also based on the situation you're describing, you're describing a large fleet,
the smaller replays show a tiny force with flaks only hitting at most 2 targets at a time and not up to 4 (which would occur if I microed, but someone got upset, so no micro at all), thats why it takes so long.

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
LRMs do almost no damage to Flak. That's why people advocate flak as the solution to LRMs, and why people are ignoring the reason LRMs are powerful. These tests that are performed are hardly useful at determining ANYTHING. They're just showing what we already knew statwise, and are NOT indicative of real game play.LRMs are good because of high ff damage at long range. So do you target Flaks? No. Flaks have insanely high hp for their dps potential, they are short range, fast units.You target everything except the flaks, then run away your LRMs. Even huge numbers of flaks cannot kill a capital ship (no joke).For instance, if they have a mixed flak/light frigate/etc. army, kill all the light frigates/etc first, then attack the capital ship, running your lrms that get ffed.Flaks, while having high hp, do not do great dps vs lrms (as you can clearly see in the replay). So, the two forces are very slowly grinding away at each other. So the long range ff unit should not be sitting there doing nothing with its dps. Just shoot at the capital ship, force it to run, then have YOUR capital ship destroy the flaks (which cannot damage it).Fun fun.


the question now becomes, do you really need your battle ship in the battle if you have 3 dozens of flaks swarming your enemies planets? Or, would your opponent dare to charge his battle ship in the middle of your flaks fleet? How long would it take a single capital ship or two to destroy a huge fleet of flaks? Flaks might not pack a punch, but they are quite sufficient for the purpose of wearing your opponent down and it is quite easy to out-build loss from attrition and fill up target planet with dozens or even hundereds of them eventually.

I once had a duel against a LRM spammer and I rushed drones carriers for counter, which let to a spam of flaks from my oppenent. Of course I switched my strategy to light frigates / attack / supply cruisers then, but that chunk of 30ish flaks lasts through the whole game and basically choked me for the whole (random map) game where there was a single choke point that divides the system.
Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
I do consider flaks slightly overpowered as they are the only kind of non-capital ships that can be easily micro'd to gain a significant advantage in a fight; due to their 360 degree attacking angle, you can just make them circle your enemies while they hopelessly turn around and around till they are dead. Your enemy could, of course, try to spread their ships in the gravity well, but then one can always counter by taking the opposing ships 1 by 1.This greatly hinders the flaks' supposed counter, the light frigates, effectiveness against them.

Together with flaks' high armor, high hull points and high shield points, I consider flaks to be one of the few types of ships in SINS which has no natural counter. Advent's defenders, in particular, are very exploitable due to the supply slots they take (3), which is significantly lower than every single ship type other than scouts. A level 2 logistic supply of defenders could sustain a fleet comparable to a fleet that requires a level 3-4 logistic supply. Even though flaks don't do very well against buildings, meaning opponents could very well ignore you and it will take quite a while for you to do significant damage, throw in a few purgers and guardians and you would have an unkillable and destructive fleet at your disposal.

Light frigates accelerate faster, turn faster and have a higher top speed than flaks.

In addition, flaks do 25% damage to everything other than fighters (150%), bombers, scouts, siege frigates and long range frigates (100%).

Even if you can keep away from the light frigates, you can't do much more than scratch their shiny paintwork.


Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
The counter to Flak would be medium armored frigates, and heavy cruisers if u can get them. But they take a while to kill regardless :O
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
Looking at actual damage and armor stats of the units it's not that surprising:

Stock flaks have ~2x more effective hull, better hull rr, ~2x more shileds, 2x more shield rr, can shoot in 4 directions at the same time. The only advantage javelin has, is higher damage output in one (and its only) direction. Using ddot during 60 seconds - 536 (lrm vs heavy) vs. 431 (flak vs light, one gun).

You can do interesting test - change javelin armor type from light to medium. Flaks should have really hard time then :)
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Looking at actual damage and armor stats of the units it's not that surprising:Stock flaks have ~2x more effective hull, better hull rr, ~2x more shileds, 2x more shield rr, can shoot in 4 directions at the same time. The only advantage javelin has, is higher damage output in one (and its only) direction. Using ddot during 60 seconds - 536 (lrm vs heavy) vs. 431 (flak vs light, one gun).You can do interesting test - change javelin armor type from light to medium. Flaks should have really hard time then


thats true and the reason I was doing stat comparisons over a week ago in the illuminator thread and others (dps, supply, cost, hp...), I just wanted to upload replays so people who ignore theorycraft can see actual ingame footage.


Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
I dunno why everyone talks about using flaks against LRM.

How about building fighters instead? 5 fighters will kill an unupgraded LRM per pass. Thats right, every 12 seconds an LRM dies with just a measly 5 fighters.

Its easy to see why so few people build fighters to combat LRM. Bombers and LRM are all the rage, and since bombers take the place of fighters... well... you get the idea.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
5 advent fighters do 1400 damage every 12 seconds, while 8 defense every 12 seconds do 533.33 damage (most of the time) to 2133.33 damage(barely).

however theres more reasons to taking flaks over carriers, I will let you figure it out :).




Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Fighters are the best at killing siege frigs and LRMs. They're the second best at killing other fighters and bombers.

Flaks are the best at killing fighters and bombers. They're the second best at killing siege frigs and LRMs.

The topic you made was about countering LRMs. If you want to kill LRMs specifically, then build fighters, not flaks. Its that simple.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
Light frigates accelerate faster, turn faster and have a higher top speed than flaks.


It doesn't change the fact that light frigate cannot attack while turning while flaks can. You can probably run away from flaks with light/medium frigates, but you definitely cannot out maneuver them and win a fight with micro.

People keep suggesting that medium frigate is a reasonable counter to flaks. But the fact is, they suffer from the same limited attack angle as LRMs, and thus are very susceptible to flaks which are micro'd. Besides, 25 percent damage done to most ships does seem bad at first glance, but the base damage of flak is so high that it actually does something more than scratching in big fights. One could also argue that, against a small fleet, ALOT of the damage potential of flaks is wasted; but then, who would be worried about a small fleet when you have a sizable flaks fleet in control?

Flaks do, however, destroy buildings fairly slowly. That's why eventually you might want some carriers / illum-equivalents to help in that area.

I used to be an LRM advocate, but after a game against a player who unintentionally spammed flaks, I am inclined to say that defender spam more effective.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
How come light frigs can't attack while turning, but flaks can?


I think what he means is that flaks can fire in all four arcs, while light frigates can only fire in the forward arc. They can and do fire while turning.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
It doesn't change the fact that light frigate cannot attack while turning while flaks can. You can probably run away from flaks with light/medium frigates, but you definitely cannot out maneuver them and win a fight with micro. People keep suggesting that medium frigate is a reasonable counter to flaks. But the fact is, they suffer from the same limited attack angle as LRMs, and thus are very susceptible to flaks which are micro'd.

I'm afraid I don't understand how you can keep out of the front arc of a ship that turns faster, accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, and longer range weapons than you.

If you can post a replay of a group of flaks beating a similarly sized group of light frigates (cobalts, disciplines or skirmishers), I'd love to see it.

I used to be an LRM advocate, but after a game against a player who unintentionally spammed flaks, I am inclined to say that defender spam more effective.

Did you try taking them out with light frigates?
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
I'm afraid I don't understand how you can keep out of the front arc of a ship that turns faster, accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, and longer range weapons than you.

Imagine a scenario where the flaks are circling around a bunch of LRM/light frigate. Due to their 360 degree attack arc, they are constantly attacking while maneuvering. Yes, ships keep attacking while moving so long as their target stays within their attacking arc
There are two ways the LRM/light frigates could try to maneuver:

1. Move away and try to maintain the distance from flaks, during which they cannot attack at all as they are facing AWAY from flaks, and after which the flaks can close the distance again when the LRM/light frigate turn around to take aim.

2. Counter-circle around the flaks. This would greatly reduce the time when the LRM/frigates are actually attacking (only when the flak it is targeting happens to move within its frontal attacking arc), while the flaks are constantly attacking the LRM/light frigates.

Either way, LRM/light frigates are f**ked. In a more simplifed scenario, consider a flak and an LRM facing and firing at each other. When the flak move straight at and over the LRM, the LRM would have to turn 180 degree to attack again, while the Flak would be constantly attacking. During the time where the LRM is turning, the flak could do the same and move back to its original side. The LRM would be constantly turning and rarely attacking, while the flak would be ALWAYS attacking. Simply put, Linear/angular speed does not matter so much as firing arc in tactical maneuvering

By the same token, illuminators actually does ok against LRMs with a bit of micro. However, this doesn't change the fact that they are tier 3 in tech and costs alot more to make, IMO they are more of a capital ship/heavy cruiser / structure destroyers that you send in after your defenders completely dominate the gravity well of the target planet.

Did you try taking them out with light frigates?

Of course I did, like i mentioned before. I used a combined arm of light frigate, heavy cruiser (crusaders) and support cruiser (guardian / subjugator) plus a progenitor mothership.

The thing about advent defender is that, the only ship type that is comparable cost-efficiency wise is the LRM, and the defender completely counters it. (Due to the supply slot of 3, it's cost is alot lower than it appears). Against everything else aside from Dark armada fleets, it is far more cost-efficient. But then, if you allow the other side to get DA, you are very much at fault in the first place...
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
How come light frigs can't attack while turning, but flaks can?I think what he means is that flaks can fire in all four arcs, while light frigates can only fire in the forward arc. They can and do fire while turning.


Flaks can only fire in all four arcs because they have a weapon in each arc.
If thats what he meant, then that completely nullifies his second paragraph. Doing 25% damage against heavy armor when you can only fire 2 shots out of 4 is crap damage. A cruiser may only be able to fire half the time, but a flak's base damage is effectively halved as well.

Now, some of you may be thinking, "but the OP did that and beat those 10 LRMs easily! if he didn't do that, he would've lost! so you're wrong and the flaks are doing more than half their damage/lrms are doing less than half"

I hope no one thinks that, but just in case, i'll tell you that that's wrong. The OP did do that, but then changed it. Halfway through, it looked like he realized something. If he kept circling around the LRMs, all of his flaks would've blown up. The computer was only targeting one ship. So he had all but one flak stay put. The one that was targetted would move around, getting hit half the time. His other flaks had free reign to do 100% of their damage when they stood still. The OP is a much better tactician than analyst ;)

...i feel like a sports commentator.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
Imagine a scenario where the flaks are circling around a bunch of LRM/light frigate. Due to their 360 degree attack arc, they are constantly attacking while maneuvering. Yes, ships keep attacking while moving so long as their target stays within their attacking arc

There are two ways the LRM/light frigates could try to maneuver:

1. Move away and try to maintain the distance from flaks, during which they cannot attack at all as they are facing AWAY from flaks, and after which the flaks can close the distance again when the LRM/light frigate turn around to take aim.

2. Counter-circle around the flaks. This would greatly reduce the time when the LRM/frigates are actually attacking (only when the flak it is targeting happens to move within its frontal attacking arc), while the flaks are constantly attacking the LRM/light frigates.

There's a third option - chase the flaks.

I don't know how many flight sims or 3D space combat games you've played, but once an opponent who can turn faster and fly faster gets behind you, it's almost impossible to shake them off - and an opponent who can turn faster and fly faster can get behind you pretty easily.

Basically, you can't 'circle around' an opponent who can turn and fly faster than you can. It's simply not possible - the more manoeuvrable ship can either move out of range or stay behind you.

Either way, LRM/light frigates are [in trouble].

LRMs are in trouble because the Flak is doing 100% damage, while the LRM is only doing 75% damage.

Light frigates aren't in trouble, because they're doing 125% damage while the flaks do 25%.

In a more simplifed scenario, consider a flak and an LRM facing and firing at each other. When the flak move straight at and over the LRM, the LRM would have to turn 180 degree to attack again, while the Flak would be constantly attacking. During the time where the LRM is turning, the flak could do the same and move back to its original side. The LRM would be constantly turning and rarely attacking, while the flak would be ALWAYS attacking. Simply put, Linear/angular speed does not matter so much as firing arc in tactical maneuvering.

Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing that flak frigates aren't effective against long range frigates - they are (although the long-range frigates can stay out of range of the flaks, they can't attack the flaks without coming under fire themselves, and their Light armour makes them vulnerable).

I'm arguing that flaks are not overpowered, because the basic light frigates (cobalt, discipline, skirmisher) are very effective against them - they can keep the flaks in their firing arc because they can outmanoeuvre them, and they do 125% damage while the flaks are only doing 25%.

Of course I did, like i mentioned before. I used a combined arm of light frigate, heavy cruiser (crusaders) and support cruiser (guardian / subjugator) plus a progenitor mothership.

I'd love to see the replay of this. Unless you were outnumbered massively, I don't understand how a fleet of flaks (which would be doing 25% damage to every ship in your fleet) lost to a fleet that are all doing 125% or 150% damage to the flaks (with the lone exception of the cap ship, which is doing 75%).

Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
Fighters are the best at killing siege frigs and LRMs. They're the second best at killing other fighters and bombers.Flaks are the best at killing fighters and bombers. They're the second best at killing siege frigs and LRMs.The topic you made was about countering LRMs. If you want to kill LRMs specifically, then build fighters, not flaks. Its that simple.


Fighters are AntiLight attackers - doing better against LRMs, Siege ships, Scouts and Bombers. Flaks are AntiVeryLight, doing better damage against Fighters. The problem with fighters is that they require expensive carrier cruisers to operate off of, and the cheap LRM blobs will catch and thrash those cruisers faster than the fighters(which attack once every 12 seconds) can kill them off.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
There's a third option - chase the flaks.


It is senseless to chase flaks with LRMs, so I suppose you are talking about light frigates. What I referred to "out maneuvering" wasn't something like the flaks can bite the tails off the light frigates; rather, I was pointing to something like "flaks moving into random position in relation to light frigates without much pattern whatsoever" while firing at the light frigates, which is made possible by their 360 degree firing arc. Light frigates might be able to get a shot in here and there, but definitely not as often as the flaks as their firing arc is just one-forth as big.

And thus, no, chasing is not an option, unless you know the exact path the flaks would take, which is usually totally random and corresponds to a few queued random clicks on the map. A simple right click auto attack would cause your LRM to hopelessly turn around and around, while a few random movement for the light frigates would give the flaks a bigger edge. Even if, miraculously, you could perfectly predict the path of the flaks and chase them, the flaks could take a sharp u-turn while attacking, and there is nothing the light frigates can do to avoid losing a few seconds of attacking opportunity. The most realistic scenario in a game is the simplified scenario I outlined above, where the flaks move back and forth while the LRMs/light frigates turn like a mad man. I seriously suggest that you test this out with a friend before you dismiss the usefulness of flaks against light frigates.

It's not even that you need serious micro to win against light frigates with flaks, you can try a 20 vs 20 close range fight with defenders against [insert random light frigate type) without any micro other than properly placing the defenders in a central position. While light frigates might have higher damage potential, the flaks have sighnificantly higher HP, shields, armor, and base attack. I expect a fairly even fight, with the defenders having significantly lower cost due to a supply of 3
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
How come light frigs can't attack while turning, but flaks can?I think what he means is that flaks can fire in all four arcs, while light frigates can only fire in the forward arc. They can and do fire while turning.Flaks can only fire in all four arcs because they have a weapon in each arc.If thats what he meant, then that completely nullifies his second paragraph. Doing 25% damage against heavy armor when you can only fire 2 shots out of 4 is crap damage. A cruiser may only be able to fire half the time, but a flak's base damage is effectively halved as well.Now, some of you may be thinking, "but the OP did that and beat those 10 LRMs easily! if he didn't do that, he would've lost! so you're wrong and the flaks are doing more than half their damage/lrms are doing less than half"I hope no one thinks that, but just in case, i'll tell you that that's wrong. The OP did do that, but then changed it. Halfway through, it looked like he realized something. If he kept circling around the LRMs, all of his flaks would've blown up. The computer was only targeting one ship. So he had all but one flak stay put. The one that was targetted would move around, getting hit half the time. His other flaks had free reign to do 100% of their damage when they stood still. The OP is a much better tactician than analyst ...i feel like a sports commentator.


If your implying that the 4 weapons can change to all fire from the front arc thats not exactly how arcs work in this game.

Each arc can only shoot ships that are within its arc, so with 4 arcs it can only shoot from the front weapon if theres only ships within the front arc.
I stopped the ships so they might use 2 arcs instead of 1 (if one ship was on their side and one in the front).

This is also why I said 8 defense can do 533.33 (ships directly in front, but not on sides/behind) damage every 12 seconds up to 2133.33 (4 ships around them on different arcs) damage every 12 seconds.

In the mixed fleet replay with flaks and 7 vs 10 replay, you can see how some flaks shoot ~2 targets, thats because when they shoot towards a ship on a side of the massive force another ship is in the left or right arc.

just so you know a flak does 4.722 to 5.55 dps (dependent on the flak type) per arc to LRM's and yes their damage vs anything with non light/verylight armour is quite bad.

In actual fleet battles you can get flaks to shoot from 3 arcs in many cases (enemy surrounds capital ship from multiple sides, the flaks are put in center and shoot 3 targets) and if the enemy is moving a large swarm and you are able to put your flaks into his force they will shoot from 2-4 arcs while moving alongside his force.

about my previous reply
I was trying to imply previously that theres a reason to use flaks over fighters, since in actual gameplay and not theorycraft flaks have a few advantages over fighters if you were also using LRM's as a combined force with the flaks and the opponent started making counters to your LRM's. Theres also other reasons, e.g. a tec player who knows what his doing and scouts can kill 200 squads of advent fighters instantly (one push of a button) and quite early in the game, crippling 1600 supply.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Like archpsi mentioned above, more often than not flaks can fire more than 2 shots while moving around quite often. Also, please keep in mind the exceptionally high base damage of the flaks (~double that of LRMs), and roughly double EHP of that of light frigates, and you might begin to see that why flaks don't fare that badly against light frigates.

I never said that flaks owned light frigates / cruisers anyhow, what I said is that it has no natural counter, as in light frigates / cruisers don't completely "destroy" them the way LRM destroyes light frigates. IMO, what makes flaks quite exploitable is not its battle prowess; rather,what's exploitable is its extremely low supply cost which makes it very easy to amass without ramping up the production cost thru logistic upgrades.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
I seriously suggest that you test this out with a friend before you dismiss the usefulness of flaks against light frigates.

Again, just so we're clear:

Flak Frigate = Garda (TEC), Defense (Advent), Sentinel (Vasari)

Long Range Frigate = Javelis (TEC), Illuminator (Advent), Assailant (Vasari)

These are weak to Flaks. They only do 75% damage against the Flaks' Heavy armour, while the Flaks do 100% damage against their Light armour.

Light Frigate = Cobalt (TEC), Discipline (Advent), Skirmisher (Vasari)

These are Flak killers. The Flaks only do 25% damage to them, while they do 125% damage to the Flaks. They also have a longer range, and are faster and more manoeuvrable, so the Flaks can't avoid their fire by circling.

It's not even that you need serious micro to win against light frigates with flaks, you can try a 20 vs 20 close range fight with defenders against [insert random light frigate type) without any micro other than properly placing the defenders in a central position. While light frigates might have higher damage potential, the flaks have sighnificantly higher HP, shields, armor, and base attack.

Okay, let's look at the numbers.

Using TEC as an example:

Garda flak frigate has 900 Hull, 450 shields and a base DPS of 4.72 in all four arcs.
Cobalt light frigate has 600 Hull, 350 shields and a base DPS of 9.5 in a single (frontal) arc.

Garda does Anti-VeryLight damage, Cobalt has Medium armour, so Garda does 25% damage.
Cobalt does Anti-Heavy damage, Garda has Heavy armour, so Combat does 125% damage.

That means, in a 1v1, before shield regen, hull regen and mitigation are taken into account:

Garda does 1.18 DPS to Cobalt
Cobalt does 11.88 DPS to Garda

That's 10 times the damage. Sure, the Garda has more hull and shields, but not 10 times more. ;)

Even when you look at groups, where the Garda's might be able to fire from multiple arcs, the picture isn't much better. If you assume equal numbers of ships and that the Garda fleet is positioned such that, on average, each Garda can fire on two Cobalts, the Cobalt fleet is still going to be doing 5 times the DPS of the Garda fleet.

I expect a fairly even fight, with the defenders having significantly lower cost due to a supply of 3

Again, if you have a replay or video of light frigates being beaten by a roughly equivalent force of flaks, I'd love to see it.

Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
Fighters are AntiLight attackers - doing better against LRMs, Siege ships, Scouts and Bombers. Flaks are AntiVeryLight, doing better damage against Fighters. The problem with fighters is that they require expensive carrier cruisers to operate off of, and the cheap LRM blobs will catch and thrash those cruisers faster than the fighters(which attack once every 12 seconds) can kill them off.


LRM still only do 75% damage vs. carriers. Then there's also capital ships. And if you're on the defensive end- hangars.

I've watched a lot of replays. The strikecraft that everyone seems to create are bombers. I never understood why when the majority of enemy ships are frigates.

If your implying that the 4 weapons can change to all fire from the front arc thats not exactly how arcs work in this game.Each arc can only shoot ships that are within its arc, so with 4 arcs it can only shoot from the front weapon if theres only ships within the front arc.I stopped the ships so they might use 2 arcs instead of 1 (if one ship was on their side and one in the front).This is also why I said 8 defense can do 533.33 (ships directly in front, but not on sides/behind) damage every 12 seconds up to 2133.33 (4 ships around them on different arcs) damage every 12 seconds.In the mixed fleet replay with flaks and 7 vs 10 replay, you can see how some flaks shoot ~2 targets, thats because when they shoot towards a ship on a side of the massive force another ship is in the left or right arc. just so you know a flak does 4.722 to 5.55 dps (dependent on the flak type) per arc to LRM's and yes their damage vs anything with non light/verylight armour is quite bad.In actual fleet battles you can get flaks to shoot from 3 arcs in many cases (enemy surrounds capital ship from multiple sides, the flaks are put in center and shoot 3 targets) and if the enemy is moving a large swarm and you are able to put your flaks into his force they will shoot from 2-4 arcs while moving alongside his force. about my previous replyI was trying to imply previously that theres a reason to use flaks over fighters, since in actual gameplay and not theorycraft flaks have a few advantages over fighters if you were also using LRM's as a combined force with the flaks and the opponent started making counters to your LRM's. Theres also other reasons, e.g. a tec player who knows what his doing and scouts can kill 200 squads of advent fighters instantly (one push of a button) and quite early in the game, crippling 1600 supply.


I hate getting into a "what if" war. Anyone can come up with a "what if" scenario and say "so-and-so can easily counter it".

You might as well say an advent player who knows what he's doing can instantly kill 200 squads of flak. But it requires 2 pushes of a button, so I guess its harder to implement than the TEC's counter to fighters.

Then you come up with a "what if". Then I come up with a "what if". And it never ends.

This is not a what if:
Fighters are the best at killing siege frigs and LRMs. They're the second best at killing other fighters and bombers.
Flaks are the best at killing fighters and bombers. They're the second best at killing siege frigs and LRMs.

How you choose to use that information is up to you. But to dismiss it because "what if? and so-and-so can easily counter it" is absurd.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
And actually, it takes TEC more effort to kill those fighters/bombers than it seems. With the right selection early on, you can make it work in your favor.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
fine whatever, was just trying to give people advice about what will occur in 1v1 if they go fighters vs the enemy whos competent and made flaks with his LRM after seeing your carriers or LRM's.

your statements are true and good advice when theres no other factors at all (only LRM fleet and the enemy will not add flaks, no anti-fighter caps..etc).

You might as well say an advent player who knows what he's doing can instantly kill 200 squads of flak.


what ability kills 200 flaks instantly exactly?, if your talking about the combination of a few cap abilities, they dont kill instantly and dont work as well vs a player who micros (just moving ships around a bit, nothing fancy), but work exceptionally well vs a.i and even better vs fighters :).
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
fine whatever, was just trying to give people advice about what will occur in 1v1 if they go fighters vs the enemy whos competent and made flaks with his LRM after seeing your carriers or LRM's.your statements are true and good advice when theres no other factors at all (only LRM fleet and the enemy will not add flaks, no anti-fighter caps..etc).


Your OP was about LRMs. All your replays were against LRMs only. To suddenly say "what if so-and-so brings LRMs AND flaks" is disingenuous. You even had replays where there were no flaks present.

Look, if an opponent brings flaks with their LRMs, then you bring support cruisers with your fighters.
If they have more LRMs then flaks, then only bring a tiny amount of support cruisers with your fighters(keep in mind that fighters does not equal carrier). The flaks won't be able to kill all the fighters before the LRMs get blown up.
If they have more flaks than LRMs, then bring a large amount of support cruisers mixed with fighters. Tell your fighters to dock while your support cruisers mop up the flaks. The lesser amount of LRMs cant kill support cruisers quick enough because of their defensive abilities. Once the flaks are out of the picture, launch the fighters.

I hope you're not going to come up with another "what if".

what ability kills 200 flaks instantly exactly?, if your talking about the combination of a few cap abilities, they dont kill instantly and dont work as well vs a player who micros (just moving ships around a bit, nothing fancy), but work exceptionally well vs a.i and even better vs fighters .


You're being disingenous again. Your entire OP was against the AI that can't micro.
Oh, and the two Advent abilities are Malice + Cleansing Brilliance. Against a fleet of 200 flaks, you're going to hit waaaay more than 20 flaks at once with Cleansing Brilliance. And 20 or so is all you need for Malice to wipe out their entire fleet.
They also have no effect on strikecraft. They can't even target them. So you obviously had no idea which 2 abilities I was talking about.