Zoologist03 Zoologist03

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Found this site: http://skeptoid.com/ and here's a nice little transcript from it that I came across.  This is written/spoken by Brian Dunning.  It's good.


 

Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

Myth #1: Men evolved from apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one species changes into another species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

  • A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
  • A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
  • A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
  • A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations.


Now that was a very well put together explanation.

~Zoo

21,479 views 102 replies
Reply #51 Top

As to the example of the atheist. Everyone does some good sometime, but the deeper question is where then does the atheist get his morals of right from wrong if not from religion? It's not utility, not pleasure, not legal sanctions, not public opinion, it's God alone.


Can't believe you never cared to look that up.

http://denbeste.nu/essays/deity.shtml

In short, if morality is based on G-d's word and nothing else, we will have to deal with the possibility that G-d changes His mind and declares prostitution and murder moral. If we say that He won't do that, we accept that they have inherent ethical values. If we say that He might and that we would have to adapt to the new code, we would be people who condone murder and prostitution if done at the right time.

OTOH there are many utilitarian and Kantian arguments for a rigid system of morality plus the possibility of some really powerful guy simply to force everybody else to adhere to a certain code of morality because he thinks that that would make a more efficient state to pay taxes to him.

If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?

And what if somebody finds a lost text about, say, Jesus' life? It's completely authentic and says "Murder as many people as possible". Would Christians accept it and start murdering or would they reject it because murder is wrong? What if their belief that murder is wrong influences their decision to accept the lost gospel? Wouldn't that mean that they believe that the morality of murder is above Jesus' word?
Reply #52 Top

It is submission to God that makes a man good, rebellion to God that makes him evil.


So was Abraham evil when he pleaded with the highest instance for the city of Gomorrah?

Reply #53 Top

 

Think about a classroom of kids. If there were no accountability, no discipline and all the kids can do what they wish, what do you suppose the class would be like in a month's time?

Well, if you follow God's example they'd all be dead because they wouldn't listen.

I am not aware of any government or tribal order that established itself without a reference to some god or gods.

There's a good reason for that...religion establishes control if you believe in it.  Say some random guy tells a group how to live, they say...well, why should we listen?  The man could attach divinity to these principles and once establishing a sacred power makes these a sort of higher law.  It's quite clever, actually.  Tell them there are big scary gods who demand sacrifice and obedience or you'll suffer and die.  People are pretty gullible when they're ignorant...fool the first group of people, then they teach their children...and you're pretty much anchored in there.  That's how you make a religion.

If religion is not the basis of morality, what is?

Exceedingly simple.  Morality starts off as base human nature.  You have to have a certain pattern of behavior when you're living in a group.  Look at monkeys.  They don't kill eachother, steal, and rape as much as possible(there are the odd instances, but I'm talking overall)...they have certain behaviors unique to them so they can function as a unit.  Same thing with people, except as a large society capable of communicating with millions we spread these ideas out and attach a divine meaning in them so people will give them more creedence.  Religion functions as a moral delivery system of a certain society...but it does not inherently possess universal moral behavior.

If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?

And what if somebody finds a lost text about, say, Jesus' life? It's completely authentic and says "Murder as many people as possible". Would Christians accept it and start murdering or would they reject it because murder is wrong? What if their belief that murder is wrong influences their decision to accept the lost gospel? Wouldn't that mean that they believe that the morality of murder is above Jesus' word?
 

That...is good stuff.  Love to see an answer for it.

~Zoo

Reply #54 Top
Exceedingly simple. Morality starts off as base human nature. You have to have a certain pattern of behavior when you're living in a group. Look at monkeys. They don't kill eachother, steal, and rape as much as possible(there are the odd instances, but I'm talking overall)...they have certain behaviors unique to them so they can function as a unit. Same thing with people, except as a large society capable of communicating with millions we spread these ideas out and attach a divine meaning in them so people will give them more creedence. Religion functions as a moral delivery system of a certain society...but it does not inherently possess universal moral behavior.


This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Basically, if it was our instinct to be moral, and then we had religion on TOP of that, we would definitely all be moral. But, as it stands, it's the other way around - people want to do evil, but do not because of religion. However, religion has that nasty side effect of telling people something evil is good, like the inquisition, etc.

Faith in God, believing in Jesus, Christianity, however you want to say it, is a changing of one's nature to want to do good out of the love of Christ and the love he showed us, and you.

In short, if morality is based on G-d's word and nothing else, we will have to deal with the possibility that G-d changes His mind and declares prostitution and murder moral. If we say that He won't do that, we accept that they have inherent ethical values. If we say that He might and that we would have to adapt to the new code, we would be people who condone murder and prostitution if done at the right time.


God stated that murder was wrong and God doesn't change. This also answers the 'lost text' question, which is this - God doesn't change, so Jesus would not have said murder as many people as possible. God's mind doesn't change because He got it right the first time.

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?


It counts. Love is action, not fluffy feelings. Else, He would not have commanded us to 'love our enemies' because it would be impossible to have fluffy feelings for our enemies. But we must act toward our enemies with love.

If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?


This is rather silly, because the definition of 'good works' is submission to God.
Reply #55 Top
G-d may be the author of both "natural and supernatural truth", but that doesn't mean we have to believe whatever some book tells us, especially when we can see with our own eyes that we have misunderstood the book (assuming the book is true).


True no one of us HAS to believe in the Holy Book, however, since it contains truth without error, it would be wise for all to believe wouldn't it? A set of objective principles is essential to enable humans to discern truth. Truth is in possession. One cannot give truth unless one first possesses truth.

That man has misunderstood the Holy Book says everything about man and nothing about God, natural truth or supernatural truth.


Using reason rather than faith IS reasonable.


Yes, OK.

Faith is a cop-out if the alternative is seeing for oneself, a way for the ignorant to claim intellectual superiority, and a way for those who cannot understand physics and biology to feel that they are smarter than those who can.


No sale.

One of the earliest models of education was developed by Saint Ignatius Loyola, a Jesuit. All classes in the curriculum, science, mathematics, even history work hand in hand, one undergirding the other, all integrating to the highest science, theology.






Reply #56 Top

 

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Basically, if it was our instinct to be moral, and then we had religion on TOP of that, we would definitely all be moral.

Ridiculous?  Hardly.  To help one another out is instinctual...if it was not our ancestors would have been dead long before religion was widely taught.  Any group of animals does the same damn thing.  As humans with larger thinking capacities and huge societies, we have expanded our morals to other things besides not killing each other.  Religion has served to carry across those messages. 

God stated that murder was wrong and God doesn't change. This also answers the 'lost text' question, which is this - God doesn't change, so Jesus would not have said murder as many people as possible. God's mind doesn't change because He got it right the first time.

God doesn't change His mind?  I listed 4 different things were the Bible advocates killing other people because they believe differently...and in the commandments he says not to kill anyone.  That's a contradiction right there.  God says different things at different times...He's always changing His mind to fit the situation.

This is rather silly, because the definition of 'good works' is submission to God.

That's insane.  It's like Biblical "Simon says."  With that definition there is no objective right or wrong.

~Zoo

Reply #57 Top
Zoo posts #53:
Religion functions as a moral delivery system of a certain society


Exactly, that's why I said morality needs religion.
Reply #58 Top
As humans with larger thinking capacities and huge societies, we have expanded our morals to other things besides not killing each other.


The first thing our larger thinking capacities came up with was that, if everyone helps me, but I don't help them, I end up with a huge piece of the pie. Our higher thinking also taught us that having a huge piece of the pie was important. We abandoned the animal instincts that were good while hanging onto those that were bad.
Reply #59 Top
In short, if morality is based on G-d's word and nothing else, we will have to deal with the possibility that G-d changes His mind and declares prostitution and murder moral.


No, no worry, that God will change His mind...His standards are absolute. It's for us humans to comply with His laws as He prescribed them. But how does one discern absolute or authentic truths amid the presence of moral relativism, a limitless number of moral codes if one takes God out of the equation?



Reply #60 Top
In short, if morality is based on G-d's word and nothing else, we will have to deal with the possibility that G-d changes His mind and declares prostitution and murder moral. If we say that He won't do that, we accept that they have inherent ethical values. If we say that He might and that we would have to adapt to the new code, we would be people who condone murder and prostitution if done at the right time.



Again, for the answer....go to God's laws and to His Revelation..written and Tradition. That I know of, both Scripture and Tradition condemn prostitution...so that's not ever going to change.


However, re: murder, there is a right time for killing, namely, in self defense, in just wars, and by the death penalty of the State, are some that come to mind.



Reply #61 Top
Leauki posts:
If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?

And what if somebody finds a lost text about, say, Jesus' life? It's completely authentic and says "Murder as many people as possible". Would Christians accept it and start murdering or would they reject it because murder is wrong? What if their belief that murder is wrong influences their decision to accept the lost gospel? Wouldn't that mean that they believe that the morality of murder is above Jesus' word?


All these "what ifs" is like a situation ethics game with God as the subject. I'm not going to play this game.

A person must have a set of objective principles to enable him to discern truth. Pope John Paul defined love as being a disposition toward goodness and thus, truth and love are inseparable realities. Man can only fully "realize" himself by seeking to confirm to absolute principles. In this way the person becomes truly free to love his fellow man.

The best thing I've read on this comes from Karol Wojtola, "Love and Responsibility",

"Only truth about oneself can bring about a real engagement of one's freedom in relation to another person. It is a giving of oneself and giving of oneself means exactly to limit one's own freedom for the sake of another person. The limitation of one's freedom would be something negative and painful, were it not for love, which transforms it into something positive, happy and creative. .....

Will strives toward goodness, and freedom is a prerequisite of will. Freedom, therefore is for love, since it is through love, that man participates in goodness. This is the basis for its principal position in the moral order, in the hierarchy ov values, and the heirarchy of proper longing and desires of man. Man needs love more than he needs freedom, since freedom is only a medium, whereas love is a purpose. Man, however, desires true love, becasue only when it is based on truth can an authentic engagment of freedom be made possible."



Reply #62 Top
God in His wisdom made the fly
And then forgot to tell us why.


Well this is an article on evolution, I bet Zoo can tell us why.

It's the mosquito that I can't the wisdom of having!
Reply #63 Top
Leauki posts: #48
I am not aware of any government or tribal order that established itself without a reference to some god or gods.


Same here. The stamp of God's handiwork is so clearly impressed upon man, no matter who he is or when or where he lived, that they believe there is a God. Men don't grow into the idea that there is a God, they endeavor to grow out of it.
Reply #64 Top
It is submission to God that makes a man good, rebellion to God that makes him evil.



So was Abraham evil when he pleaded with the highest instance for the city of Gomorrah?


No, Abraham wasn't evil, however, I fail to understand what this has to do with what I said?

Reply #65 Top
Leauki posts :
I am not aware of any government or tribal order that established itself without a reference to some god or gods.


Zoo posts:
There's a good reason for that...religion establishes control if you believe in it.


Not quite...religion has no control per se...it's those in charge who can be for good or bad...

Right religion establishes authority based upon God's absolutes and standards..

Zoo posts:
Say some random guy tells a group how to live, they say...well, why should we listen? The man could attach divinity to these principles and once establishing a sacred power makes these a sort of higher law. It's quite clever, actually. Tell them there are big scary gods who demand sacrifice and obedience or you'll suffer and die. People are pretty gullible when they're ignorant...fool the first group of people, then they teach their children...and you're pretty much anchored in there. That's how you make a religion.


Yes, good description of a man-made religion! God's revealed religion cannot be described as such however.

Lula posts:
If religion is not the basis of morality, what is?



Zoo posts:
Exceedingly simple. Morality starts off as base human nature. You have to have a certain pattern of behavior when you're living in a group. Look at monkeys. They don't kill eachother, steal, and rape as much as possible(there are the odd instances, but I'm talking overall)...they have certain behaviors unique to them so they can function as a unit. Same thing with people, except as a large society capable of communicating with millions we spread these ideas out and attach a divine meaning in them so people will give them more creedence.


Not sure what you mean here.

I start with the statement that religion is the basis of morality..and ask, if not what is?

You say, "Morality starts off as base human nature." So, we are back to square 1....where does morality come from if it starts as base human nature?


Are you saying we humans get our morality from the way the group monkey thing works only since we're further up the intelligence chain attach a divine meaning? If so, is this not Evolution word smithing?






Reply #66 Top
If Christians do good because G-d wants them to, will G-d be fooled and admit them to heaven even though the reason they did good was submission to G-d rather than love for one's fellow human beings?

Does it count as love if it is done on command? Is that not prostitution? Love on command?

And what if somebody finds a lost text about, say, Jesus' life? It's completely authentic and says "Murder as many people as possible". Would Christians accept it and start murdering or would they reject it because murder is wrong? What if their belief that murder is wrong influences their decision to accept the lost gospel? Wouldn't that mean that they believe that the morality of murder is above Jesus' word?

That...is good stuff. Love to see an answer for it.
~Zoo


I replied to this in # 61.
Reply #67 Top
The first thing our larger thinking capacities came up with was that, if everyone helps me, but I don't help them, I end up with a huge piece of the pie. Our higher thinking also taught us that having a huge piece of the pie was important. We abandoned the animal instincts that were good while hanging onto those that were bad.


For some, this was undoubtedly true...that's why we've had class structure. Though most people won't keep helping someone without anything coming back unless of course they're being forced to.

Well this is an article on evolution, I bet Zoo can tell us why.

It's the mosquito that I can't the wisdom of having!


I could indeed.

The mosquito, like everything else, has found a way to exploit a resource...our sweet, sweet blood. Though we hate them, they thrive and through them malaria, yellow fever, West Nile, and all sorts of fun things.

Yes, good description of a man-made religion! God's revealed religion cannot be described as such however.


Well obviously...  :NOTSURE:  Every other religion is a sham compared to Christianity...there's absolutely no way we could have been fooled at any point in time.  :NOTSURE: 

Though, that's not really the point. Any religion can be used to control a group of people if their faith in it is strong enough. People in power can use it to cause untold amounts of destruction and have.

Are you saying we humans get our morality from the way the group monkey thing works only since we're further up the intelligence chain attach a divine meaning?


Something like that. You see, social behavior and bonding is inherent in our species. A form of social cohesiveness. However, as society develops it takes on a grander meaning, and I believe it has been incorporated into religion. Now, I have no papers to back this up, I'm just going on a basic understanding of psychology and my adequate understanding of primate society. There are certain rules in any group of animals. There are ranks, acceptable behavior, and unacceptable behavior. This is exactly like human society. Now, as humans we have those fantastic brains of ours...with them we have huge imaginations and attribute higher powers to the things we don't understand. Going along those lines we create a mythos to satisfy that unknowing feeling. While we're at it, we use it to explain behavior and events...so it's not a stretch to assume that "good living" was incorporated as a rigid form of conduct within a society. Makes sense to me, anyway.

I see plenty of morality without religious overtones. As you know, I'm not very religious at all...yet I still have a moral code I follow...and I believe I picked it up more from society than any religious teachings. I have great conviction for what I believe is right and wrong, though I do it not because the Bible tells me so, but because I reason that it is not. Murder-bad, rape-bad, stealing-bad...why? Because it hurts other people, and as a person hurting other people...well, it's not logical because you're subverting your own kind and that'll lead to extinction, definitely not good.

~Zoo

Reply #68 Top
depends on what your definition of morality is


My definition, and therefore my moral code, would be different to yours or anyone elses because my interpretation of what constitutes moral behaviour is subjective, as is yours and anyone elses.

As children, we're taught right from wrong. We're taught not to lie, cheat, steal or murder. We're taught not to hurt each other. But then when we grow into adults, lies become necessary, even if these are only white lies to prevent hurting another's feelings. Perhaps we also learn that pain, inflicted in a particular way, is actually sensual. It doesn't make the individual any less moral, but establishes a personal, individual code.

But from Jesus' POV he wouldn't have had to die if it were possible we could be "moral" enough would he?


Okay, first of all, you are assuming I believe in Jesus. Secondly, the moral code of the society he was supposed to be a part of is vastly different from today. There really is no way to compare. Our society, for all its bad points, is much more aware of our own morality than folk living in Jesus' time.

To God, we have fallen short on the "moral" end of things. But to the world, we can be good enough. The problem is, who makes up the rules? Us? God?


Society makes up the rules, governed, as Zoo suggests, by tyhe desire to continue the human race. In your individual opinion, society might have 'fallen short' but I'm sure there are many who would disagree.
Reply #69 Top
Lula posts:

If religion is not the basis of morality, what is?


Zoo posts:
Zoo posts:
Exceedingly simple. Morality starts off as base human nature. You have to have a certain pattern of behavior when you're living in a group. Look at monkeys. They don't kill eachother, steal, and rape as much as possible(there are the odd instances, but I'm talking overall)...they have certain behaviors unique to them so they can function as a unit. Same thing with people, except as a large society capable of communicating with millions we spread these ideas out and attach a divine meaning in them so people will give them more creedence.


Lula posts:
Are you saying we humans get our morality from the way the group monkey thing works only since we're further up the intelligence chain attach a divine meaning?


Zoo posts:
Something like that. You see, social behavior and bonding is inherent in our species. A form of social cohesiveness. However, as society develops it takes on a grander meaning, and I believe it has been incorporated into religion. Now, I have no papers to back this up, I'm just going on a basic understanding of psychology and my adequate understanding of primate society. There are certain rules in any group of animals. There are ranks, acceptable behavior, and unacceptable behavior. This is exactly like human society.


Here I can see where you've soaked up a little tooo much Evolution Theory. This is where your sense is getting off track imho.

First of all, our human sense of moral obligation didn't come from mimicking promates! The reason is becasue primates have no sense of right and wrong. None whatsoever, they act from pure instinct.

OTOH, in every human person there is a sense of right and wrong. A man knows interiorily when he is doing wrong. Something rebukes his conduct. He knows what he is doing goes against an inward voice. It's the voice of conscience dictating a law we did not make and which no man could have made for this voice protests whether other men know of our conduct or not. This voice is quite often against what we wish to do warning us beforehand and condemning us after our violation. The moral law dictated by this voice of conscience supposes a Lawgiver, and didn't come from mimicking primates.

ZOO POSTS:
I see plenty of morality without religious overtones. As you know, I'm not very religious at all...yet I still have a moral code I follow...and I believe I picked it up more from society than any religious teachings. I have great conviction for what I believe is right and wrong, though I do it not because the Bible tells me so, but because I reason that it is not.



I understand what you're saying...but this doesn't prove morality came from mimicking primates or following their lead in socialization. As far as society's moral code..those are our laws...and where did they come from...what are they based upon?

A higher law, perhaps?

Your personal conviction for knowing right from wrong, besides reasoning, could be you following your conscience.

Reply #70 Top
As children, we're taught right from wrong. We're taught not to lie, cheat, steal or murder. We're taught not to hurt each other. But then when we grow into adults, lies become necessary, even if these are only white lies to prevent hurting another's feelings. Perhaps we also learn that pain, inflicted in a particular way, is actually sensual. It doesn't make the individual any less moral, but establishes a personal, individual code.


This is moral relativism. Each person can draw up their own moral code which results in a limitless number of moral codes. I'm OK, you're OK type thinking...the danger that has arisen moral relativism, a limitless number of moral codes has degenerated into tolerance of any belief or activity no matter how evil or bizarre.




Reply #71 Top
First of all, our human sense of moral obligation didn't come from mimicking promates!


It's not mimicry...we ARE primates, therefore that behavior is our own. I use other primates as a basic example.

It makes sense to me...but a lot of the things that make sense to me don't necessarily jive with the Bible. But hey, that's what hell is for, eh? :P

~Zoo
Reply #72 Top
could indeed.

The mosquito, like everything else, has found a way to exploit a resource...our sweet, sweet blood. Though we hate them, they thrive and through them malaria, yellow fever, West Nile, and all sorts of fun things.


I think she was going more for what purpose they play, not how they have adapted to survive. We know the latter. But does anyone this side of heaven know the former? ;)
Reply #73 Top

I think she was going more for what purpose they play, not how they have adapted to survive. We know the latter. But does anyone this side of heaven know the former?

Well...they're eaten primarily by dragonflies and bats...so they're always someone's food.  Not to mention transmitters for those diseases....it's a purpose too, just not one we're fond of.

~Zoo

Reply #74 Top

I replied to this in # 61.


Yes, you said


All these "what ifs" is like a situation ethics game with God as the subject. I'm not going to play this game.


I really wish I could meet a Christian whose faith is strong enough to question his own beliefs.
Reply #75 Top
I really wish I could meet a Christian whose faith is strong enough to question his own beliefs.


I question them all the time. Some of the beliefs I hold dear now took years for me to fully accept. In fact, to me, everytime a Christian turns to God in prayer, we are questioning one belief or another. If we weren't then we wouldn't have to rely on God for answers, would we.