Fabulous Bit about Evolution

Found this site: http://skeptoid.com/ and here's a nice little transcript from it that I came across.  This is written/spoken by Brian Dunning.  It's good.


 

Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

Myth #1: Men evolved from apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one species changes into another species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

  • A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
  • A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
  • A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
  • A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations.


Now that was a very well put together explanation.

~Zoo

21,479 views 102 replies
Reply #1 Top
Fascinating article on a scintillating subject.

You know it's not going to change anyone's mind, though . . .
Reply #2 Top
We need to nip this thinking crap in the bud. I’m going to send a neuralgic pulse through the web in the form of a smiley. Don’t be afraid it’s quite painless, and you’ll wake up with a butload of make believe happy thoughts. ">

Reply #3 Top
Drats! the Devil blocked my smiley.
Reply #4 Top

Thanks for that explanation, it does make a lot of things clear in a topic that is usually muddled.

To me though, there's no reason for science to have to defend evolution to creationists.  On the same token, creationists shouldn't feel the need to "disprove" evolution.

The criteria for a theory shows why.

Can that criteria be used to prove there is no God?  Nope.

Can Genesis be used to disprove evolution?  Nope.

I think the only reason for the antagonism is both are trying to disprove the other, with insufficient evidence.  Nowhere in the book of Genesis does Moses claim that it's an exhaustive history of the creation.  On the other hand, science can't use the criteria you cite to disprove Genesis.

Until we know more about both the spiritual and the physical, we'll continue to act as if they are mutually exclusive.

Reply #5 Top

Can that criteria be used to prove there is no God? Nope.


Of course not.


Can Genesis be used to disprove evolution? Nope.


Indeed.


I think the only reason for the antagonism is both are trying to disprove the other, with insufficient evidence. Nowhere in the book of Genesis does Moses claim that it's an exhaustive history of the creation. On the other hand, science can't use the criteria you cite to disprove Genesis.


Exactly right.


Until we know more about both the spiritual and the physical, we'll continue to act as if they are mutually exclusive.


I think we will be told how it all fits together. But that won't happen in this world or now.
Reply #6 Top

I happen to know for a fact we are descended from apes!  You have not seen my great Uncle Pierre.

Good article and true.  I like Parated's summation. The 2 do not have to be mutually exclusive, as evolution never tries to define where the origins of life came from, only the tree.

Reply #7 Top

 

You know it's not going to change anyone's mind, though . . .

Heh, never will...even if we find a bigfoot driving a car and talking on a cell phone I doubt anyone's mind will change in the least.

Drats! the Devil blocked my smiley.

Hah! The Devil still allows me to think!

To me though, there's no reason for science to have to defend evolution to creationists. On the same token, creationists shouldn't feel the need to "disprove" evolution.

True...although there is a way to combine them...but no one seems up for that task either.

The 2 do not have to be mutually exclusive, as evolution never tries to define where the origins of life came from, only the tree.
 

Indeed, I as I keep saying evolution is the how...maybe God and His creation is the why?  There's your science and there's your faith in equal servings.  To me, something above the normal laws of the world had to happen in order to kick all this stuff off, you know have the first bit of life, energy and matter for these things cannot be created spontaneously from nothing unless there's a divine factor or some really crazy process that would destroy the entire field of physics.  After things were set up...they were kicked into motion.  Planets forming, stars condensing, life springing forth and changing...eventually resulting into what lives here today.  That's my science/faith explanation of the world.

Religion requires faith...so why not set up a system which functions perfectly well on its own, give some people a book and see what happens?  It's like a computer simulation.

~Zoo

Reply #8 Top

It's like a computer simulation.
~Zoo

How do you know it is not?

Reply #9 Top

How do you know it is not?

Nick Bostrom's simulation argument?

~Zoo

Reply #10 Top
Cool article. And thanks for the link to it!
Reply #11 Top
Indeed, I as I keep saying evolution is the how...maybe God and His creation is the why? There's your science and there's your faith in equal servings. To me, something above the normal laws of the world had to happen in order to kick all this stuff off, you know have the first bit of life, energy and matter for these things cannot be created spontaneously from nothing unless there's a divine factor or some really crazy process that would destroy the entire field of physics. After things were set up...they were kicked into motion. Planets forming, stars condensing, life springing forth and changing...eventually resulting into what lives here today. That's my science/faith explanation of the world.


Yeah, baby! That's what I think, too, actually. I think that there was probably some divine guidance to the rest of the process as well, but basically, my belief is the same. :D

Thanks for the article, Zoo. We'll show them how God and Science can cooperate! YAY!!
Reply #12 Top
True...although there is a way to combine them...but no one seems up for that task either.


Here's a stab at it.. "Science is man trying to figure out how God does it". ;~D
Reply #13 Top

Cool article. And thanks for the link to it!

It's a pretty neat site.

Thanks for the article, Zoo. We'll show them how God and Science can cooperate! YAY!!

Woo! Teamwork!

Here's a stab at it.. "Science is man trying to figure out how God does it". ;~D

That actually fits really well into my personal theories.

~Zoo

Reply #14 Top
Hey long time lurker first time poster thought that I'd start off with a favorite issue of mine

True...although there is a way to combine them...but no one seems up for that task either.


I will have to disagree with this assertion here. There are alot of people up to the task the problem is that we have too many people on both sides of the debate characterizing the other as the devil incarnate or misguided fools and that will always bring more attention in the media than someone who is trying to bring reconciliation due to the fact that our media today seems bound and determined to make everyone lose faith in humanity containing any form of rational thought. The truth of the matter is that there are people from both science and faith that accept that evolution and God can coexist with eachother and support eachother. Perhaps one of the best in recent years is Francis S Collins leader of the human genome project who in his late colledge years converted from Aethism to Christianity based on scientific and theological reasonings. His most recent book The Language of God offers a compelling case for the syntheis of the scientific and theistic worldviews and also tells about his own conversion expierence. The reality is that like the above posters said there is really no conflict between the two, however as long as we have anti religous bigots hoping to use an unrelated theory to destroy something that they dont understand and narrow minded pastors hoping to gain popularity by denying something that they have never even bothered to learn about in the first place the conflict will unfortunently continue. It is unfortunent indeed for how many biologists did we lose because they were under the false impression that they either had to chose between science and faith and they chose faith? How many biologists today are living under an existential vacuum because they thought that their passion for discovering the depths of life meant they had to give up their faith?
Reply #15 Top
The Evolutionists say:

We don't know exactly how it happend
We don't know what exactly happened
We don't know where this all took place
We don't know when this all took place


AND THAT's A FACT! :LOL: 
Reply #16 Top

 

There are alot of people up to the task the problem is that we have too many people on both sides of the debate characterizing the other as the devil incarnate or misguided fools and that will always bring more attention in the media than someone who is trying to bring reconciliation due to the fact that our media today seems bound and determined to make everyone lose faith in humanity containing any form of rational thought

Well, one can only hope that that kind of idiocy resolves.  It's not hard to reconcile beliefs with what is known...you just have to try.  Though there are far too many that flat out deny things before they bother learning about them.  Like the abomination that is the Creationist Museum.  Dinosaurs being used to plow a field?  Yeah...sure...

We don't know exactly how it happend
We don't know what exactly happened
We don't know where this all took place
We don't know when this all took place

A scientist will be the first to admit what he/she doesn't know.  However in this case we know how, we know what, we know where, and we know when.  We don't know why or how it first started and there are other details that need defining, but, we're looking into it instead of accepting a story and never questioning it.  Science is about finding answers...we don't make up things because we feel like it.  We're actually very, very, very conservative thinkers in that respect.  We don't jump to conclusions without rigorous research and testing.  In 1859 this theory was introduced to the world, it is 2008 right now.  That's 149 years.  Not many theories last that long unless they're fairly well supported.  I think if evolution was inherently flawed we would've hit on something by now.

~Zoo

Reply #17 Top
A scientist will be the first to admit what he/she doesn't know.


The problem I have with many science minded athests is, too many say say, "we don't know how it happened, but we know it wasn't some "god" guy". (or things to that effect). ;~D

Reply #18 Top
Religion is a smart man’s admission that he cannot know everything. Religious fundamentalism is a stupid man’s admission that he thinks he knows enough.

-- Moshe Wilkinson
Reply #19 Top
-- Moshe Wilkinson


That's a smart man. ;)
Reply #20 Top
The problem I have with many science minded athests is, too many say say, "we don't know how it happened, but we know it wasn't some "god" guy". (or things to that effect).


The best way to go about it is to never count anything out until you figure your problem out. Also, one must never assume anything either way. objectivity. :D

That's a smart man.


Indeed. That's a nice quote.

~Zoo

Reply #21 Top
Religion is a smart man’s admission that he cannot know everything. Religious fundamentalism is a stupid man’s admission that he thinks he knows enough.

-- Moshe Wilkinson


he's got it backwards.

Reply #22 Top
No, KFC, it's exactly right.

Reply #23 Top
No, KFC, it's exactly right.


well then you don't know the difference between a religionist (like a Pharisee who knows it all) and a fundamentalist.

I consider myself a fundamentalist.

The more I know and learn, the more I realize how much I DON"T know.

Like I said....he got it wrong.

Reply #24 Top
Religion is a smart man’s admission that he cannot know everything. Religious fundamentalism is a stupid man’s admission that he thinks he knows enough.

-- Moshe Wilkinson


So true.

I think that maybe your definitions are different than the rest of us, KFC, because I'd call the Pharisees 'religious fundamentalists' any day.
Reply #25 Top

I think that maybe your definitions are different than the rest of us, KFC, because I'd call the Pharisees 'religious fundamentalists' any day.


well that could be true about what you said about the definitions. I don't see the Pahrisees as fundamental at all. The Pharisees were the Religionists of their day. There was nothing fundamental about them. They were stict adherants to the Law adding their own laws to the mix. We still see that today.

A Fundamentalist says, let's get back to basics. It's all about fundamentals. Get rid of all the religion and back to basics. Don't I say that all the time?

That's my definition. So Jesus would have been a Fundamentalist not a Religionist. That's why he was in conflict with the Pharisees because he didn't adhere to their rules and regulations and even denounced them. I agree with Jesus even today with all these rules and regs these religions are fostering on the people.