Side-Discussion on 9/11

To respect OP's wishes

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=412&aid=162355
To respect the OP in that thread, I'm creating a parallel thread in which to discuss things, rather than muddy a remembrance thread with them.

Remembrance Thread

Here's my latest reply:

Capatalization on peoples pain and agony. We all knew what happened yet the media continued to play footage just to raise raitings.


To quote the radio going beside me:

Never
Forget


I suppose you're going to say the little media montage's they play on that station are capitalizing on the pain and agony of that day, rather than a genuine memorial effort?

Yeah, they replayed those for a while. Because of the shock, the horror, we as a nation felt over it. The media has no choice but to respond to that. It was a cheap tactic (though it was just as effective as those would be): it was a basic, human response and need.
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Reply #1 Top
I suppose you're going to say the little media montage's they play on that station are capitalizing on the pain and agony of that day, rather than a genuine memorial effort?


Theres not such things as a genuine memorial effort, everything is about money. I am sure the people of the radio station care out of the feeling of being patriotic, but the company doent give a crap. In reality, and as I have said, 9/11 has been greatly benificial to media and the communication network. Not only do media giants get exempt from monopoly laws by just supporting the government the radio stations most likely get tax cuts for such a 'charitable' memorial effort.

At the same time we have phone companies like AT & T regaining their previous monopoly over land lines just by allowing the government to tap into whatever number it wants. And dont even get me started on AOL and Google.

Sure its a touching day, and sure we will never forget, but thats only because it will get that all deserving paragraph in our future history textbooks.

it was a basic, human response and need.


Or greed? Hm... Im going with my answer.
Reply #2 Top

Theres not such things as a genuine memorial effort, everything is about money.


Just because someone makes money doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Furthermore, on veteran's day I've placed flags on US soldier graves since a child. So far I've never been paid for it... and I won't be told by you or anyone else that it's not a real memorial effort.

You're treading on thin ice here.
Reply #3 Top
Thanks Ron!
Reply #4 Top
I think TGE's pont only really extends to corporations...however, I think that certain tramatic instances can shock even corporations out of greed (only temporarily). Corporations are made out of individuals and individuals can be greatly shocked by event like 9/11. Now at this point though, the shock has certainly worn off and companies are going for the money now. Also, people talk about remembering 9/11 so much it is being to become hokey, that's the problem with waving flags every second, saying "God bless America" and "We will never forget" every hour. Don't get me wrong, remembering 9/11 is important, but saying something too much dilutes its meaning, like people who curse every second word. The reason I complain about the constant "remember 9/11" sayings is that they dilute the meaning of those words and even what 9/11 means to the US, and thus makes it less likely 9/11 will be remembered.
Reply #5 Top
Just because someone makes money doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Furthermore, on veteran's day I've placed flags on US soldier graves since a child. So far I've never been paid for it... and I won't be told by you or anyone else that it's not a real memorial effort.


You did it, cause you were conditioned to do it. Its basic nationalistic patriotism. If I cared enough to ask you about your family background then I would have my proof.

You're treading on thin ice here.


Thats only so because I am talking with patriotic bull dogs.

In a world that is slowly melting away nationaly identity patriotism is becoming a thing of the past. Skeptism is the way of the future. And money is the universal motivator.

A company has no use for patriotism, only money. The individuals in the company may be patriotic, but it makes little differance. All the major radio stations are owned by ,more often then not, a cold hearted bord of investors.

Oh, and lets look at 9/11. The rest of the Western world has had terrorist screenings for decades. If we had the security they had in Europe in 2001, then 9/11 would have never happened. And now that a few thousand people have died the nation finally gets cut down from its high place and we reliase we arent as safe as we have been for the past 200 years.





Reply #6 Top
Theres not such things as a genuine memorial effort, everything is about money.


And that's all I need to prove you wrong -- look at my high school (where I was involved in genuine memorial efforts). Look at any number of websites that have created such montages with no fiscal incentive. Fact is, its a genuine memorial effort.

Back to the radio company... Sure, the company end of it gains a fair bit, but the channel in question really is quite good at supporting a number of charitable / community type events. Yeah, the company lets them do it because its good money, but the people themselves -- the ones that choose to do it -- do it because they believe. Because they want to.
Reply #7 Top
And that's all I need to prove you wrong -- look at my high school (where I was involved in genuine memorial efforts). Look at any number of websites that have created such montages with no fiscal incentive. Fact is, its a genuine memorial effort.


I restate, the individual can be giving and patriotic. You think I'm not?

What I am saying is that companies arent people, and capatalism is all about companies and corporations, so in retrospect its all about money, whether you want to admit it or not. Markets dont run on charity, they run on small green pieces of paper.

Back to the radio company... Sure, the company end of it gains a fair bit, but the channel in question really is quite good at supporting a number of charitable / community type events. Yeah, the company lets them do it because its good money, but the people themselves -- the ones that choose to do it -- do it because they believe. Because they want to.


Oh, I am sure they do believe. But its a preset attitude, its a conditioned reaction. I never said that the individuals opperating the radio station didnt care.

And the main reason a company tries to get embedded in a community is to rake in more money from loyal customers. I mean look at comcast.
Reply #8 Top


You did it, cause you were conditioned to do it. Its basic nationalistic patriotism. If I cared enough to ask you about your family background then I would have my proof.

Yeah, and you only care about your parents because you were conditioned to do so... and you only like men or women because your biology conditioned you to that.


Conditioning does not make something meaningless.


Furthermore, your whole train of logic leads to nihilism which is generally destructive and so far as I know has never accomplished anything positive.


Thats only so because I am talking with patriotic bull dogs.

No, I'm not saying you're soon to trigger a negative response from someone on the forum. I doubt you care about that. I am saying you're buying into a fallacy. The risk is to yourself, not your reputation on this forum...

Skeptism is the way of the future. And money is the universal motivator.

Skeptism doesn't build nations, companies, families, or organizations.

You're not thinking this through.

A company has no use for patriotism, only money. The individuals in the company may be patriotic, but it makes little differance. All the major radio stations are owned by ,more often then not, a cold hearted bord of investors.

So what? I never said the board of directors cares... nor do they need to.

Oh, and lets look at 9/11. The rest of the Western world has had terrorist screenings for decades. If we had the security they had in Europe in 2001, then 9/11 would have never happened. And now that a few thousand people have died the nation finally gets cut down from its high place and we reliase we arent as safe as we have been for the past 200 years.

Terrorism like this is a new thing. Not as new as it is to us, but still new. And it has a common source.


You're ironically breeding complacency.
Reply #9 Top
Yeah, and you only care about your parents because you were conditioned to do so... and you only like men or women because your biology conditioned you to that.


Yes it does, though biology might be a lesser player. I believe more in molding.

Furthermore, your whole train of logic leads to nihilism which is generally destructive and so far as I know has never accomplished anything positive.


Nihilism? It is simple behaviorism. But you are right, I am a bit nihilistic, for I have no love for governments.

No, I'm not saying you're soon to trigger a negative response from someone on the forum. I doubt you care about that. I am saying you're buying into a fallacy. The risk is to yourself, not your reputation on this forum...


Buying into a fallacy? Well thats quite easy to do in a world like this. Matters what you pay with though.

Skeptism doesn't build nations, companies, families, or organizations.

You're not thinking this through.


Skeptism leads to well thought out ideas, ideas rule the world.

Terrorism like this is a new thing. Not as new as it is to us, but still new. And it has a common source.


What is the common source? The third world? The oppressed? The radicals? What is it?

You're ironically breeding complacency.


For the masses, complacency is a bliss every country wants to create. I have no problem with the general public falling for a small lie, then a big truth.
Reply #10 Top

Yeah, and you only care about your parents because you were conditioned to do so... and you only like men or women because your biology conditioned you to that.


Yes it does, though biology might be a lesser player. I believe more in molding.

Are you saying your sexual orientation is not biological?

I assure, my fondness for the ladies has nothing to do with my society or parents.

Nihilism? It is simple behaviorism. But you are right, I am a bit nihilistic, for I have no love for governments.

Its more then that... you don't really believe in anything. You're not invested in anything or idea or ideal. You've lost all faith it seems with any human organization.


Which is fine only it means you might as well not live in human society at that point.



Buying into a fallacy? Well thats quite easy to do in a world like this. Matters what you pay with though.

The inevitable conclusion of your logic is disaster and hopelessness.


Other paths while fought with hypocrisy and horror at least trend towards organization, civilization, and progress.


If intelligence is the ability to make sense of conflicting information, then wisdom is the ability to see the harmony in conflicting forces.


Skeptism leads to well thought out ideas, ideas rule the world.

Skepticism tests ideas. But it does not create them. It is a critic... not an artist or an inventor. Skepticism is the banker that asks for your business plan. Not the businessman that came up with the idea.


The third world?

No, the third world does not generate these people. In fact, many of the terrorists come from wealthy families either in the first world or second world.

The oppressed?

Again, no... the oppressed in most places do not commit acts of terrorism against western powers.

The radicals?

While all terrorists are radicals not all radicals are terrorists.

What is it?

Radical Islamic Extremism... also referred to as Islamofascism. I'll define it if you don't know specifically what I mean.


For the masses, complacency is a bliss every country wants to create.

Who do you think you are? You are the flipping masses. So am I. No, you're just saying nothing matters. You're breeding complacency because action challenges your notion that nothing matters.


Reply #11 Top


I assure, my fondness for the ladies has nothing to do with my society or parents.


Yeah, but most people's homophobic tendencies do. (Homophobic to include their own inability to admit that they might be attracted to another guy, even if its just "get off" with one another. God forbid they should actually be even the slightest bit "bi"!) Lets not go there though.
Reply #12 Top



I assure, my fondness for the ladies has nothing to do with my society or parents.


Yeah, but most people's homophobic tendencies do. (Homophobic to include their own inability to admit that they might be attracted to another guy, even if its just "get off" with one another. God forbid they should actually be even the slightest bit "bi"!) Lets not go there though.

you're almost certainly right about our aversion to homosexuality being inherited from our culture or upbringing. But that only supports the point I was making.


He was devaluing patriotism because it's programmed by your culture and parents. I countered that just about everything is programmed by one thing or another. Further I've made the point that without such programming human civilization becomes impossible. No cities... no men on the moon... no internet.


So be careful with what you dismiss. That's why I said he was on dangerous ground. Not because someone on the forum might insult him or not like him. But because he was buying into a suicidal fallacy.
Reply #13 Top
Sorry, you managed to hit a button there. That particular issue is one that has irked me for years, don't even ask me why. Probably something to do with my deep and abiding desire for fairness. Equal rights is almost as big a deal to me as child abuse (AKA: either one can produce tunnel vision if touched on in discussion, and if seen in real life out and out rage).
Reply #14 Top
Hmmm... Honestly, I think the homosexuality, race, and gender revolution has more or less accomplished what it set out to do. Inequities exist but most of them are more from the inertia for bias then any fresh renewal. The system needs a generation or so to adjust... And even then remember that just because certain people don't achieve statistical placement in a given institution doesn't mean that there is bias against them doing so. An example of that is females entering highly technical fields. The universities are not turning these people away and neither are the companies. They're not applying for the training and thus are not qualified for the jobs. For whatever reason women are not as attracted to a life in dark rooms with 55 hour work weeks. Statistically it just doesn't seem to appeal to them.

This country has bigger problems right now then discrimination against one group or another. And this obsession with fighting back group discrimination also overshadows the PRIMARY minority that is more important then any race, gender, ethnic group, or creed.

The minority of one. Individual rights. The right to say no to the police when they're over stepping their bounds without fear. The right to tell a corporation that it's rentacops can "ask" you to do things, but are not actually police officers. The right to tell 30 people that ask you not to do something that they have no right no matter how many people agree with them... so long as whatever it is you're doing isn't hurting anyone else. Our government is too big and too focused on things that are none of it's business.
Reply #15 Top
Move out, get a job, run for office, open that company and take over and remold the world while you still know everything!
Reply #16 Top

Move out, get a job, run for office, open that company and take over and remold the world while you still know everything!


have moved out, have a job, won't run for office because politics isn't my life, and I never said I knew everything.


Nor am I afraid to try and think about such things. I'll fail along the way... probably repeatedly... but at least I'm trying. And if how do know I'm wrong unless YOU know? Are you upset that someone's trying to think about such things or are you upset because you know enough to know I'm wrong? If it's the first case then that's not a respectable perspective. If it's the second then if anything you should be explaining why I'm wrong.

Love and peace, Karmashock.
Reply #17 Top
Inequities exist but most of them are more from the inertia for bias then any fresh renewal.


Perhaps, but the fact is that homophobia is so deeply ingrained into our society that we still have a long, long way to go. Same for sheer prudishness (which is not) healthy!), when you get down to it. There are far, far to many people out there who barely have "bisexual" as a blip on their radar, despite the fact that its probably the most common "type" of person. Sure, most people are way over to the straight side of the scale, but since most people persist in thinking of it in a binary straight or gay -- with being recognized once in a blue moon! -- they refuse to realize that there is just a little bit of them that might be curious.

Again, this is one of my personal button issues, so I'm going to walk away.
Reply #18 Top

Move out, get a job, run for office, open that company and take over and remold the world while you still know everything!


have moved out, have a job, won't run for office because politics isn't my life, and I never said I knew everything.


Nor am I afraid to try and think about such things. I'll fail along the way... probably repeatedly... but at least I'm trying. And if how do know I'm wrong unless YOU know? Are you upset that someone's trying to think about such things or are you upset because you know enough to know I'm wrong? If it's the first case then that's not a respectable perspective. If it's the second then if anything you should be explaining why I'm wrong.

Love and peace, Karmashock.


that was for TGE not you!
Reply #19 Top

Perhaps, but the fact is that homophobia is so deeply ingrained into our society that we still have a long, long way to go.

Most "homophobia" I run across is indirect and more born of ignorance and crudeness then actual malice or fear. Such as one child calling another child a 'fag' as an insult. It might well be something such children will throw at homosexuals but it is also something typically grown out of...


The primary thing that harms homosexuals in our society is they are typically perceived if not actually immaculate. That does trigger a non cultural response... I think there is likely a biological behavioral response to effeminate males. A powerful gay man or bisexual man is an entirely different figure from the gay man in white leather pants, a pink sweater, and gogo boots. Which I think largely as a "signaling" mechanism is used by gay men to let other gay men know who they are... At the same time however, it may be triggering automatic responses that aren't going to away with any amount of social engineering. As we change it might be prudent if they find a different way to communicate their orientation. The ear ring idea is a good one... even though they'll be the only men wearing them besides women... ideally you want something that is not feminine as a signal. Men are men... and I think it's too much to expect that hazzing won't occur towards men that don't act like men. They don't need to be straight... simply masculine.

Metrosexual men receive a similar response even though we know they're not homosexual.


That is an important insight that I would like to pause on for a moment. That non-homosexuals trigger a similar response even when everyone knows they're not homosexual by behaving effeminate. This whole issue might have more to do with walking around in pink scarfs with perfume then what is done in private bed rooms.

Same for sheer prudishness (which is not) healthy!)

There are strong reasons for and against prudishness. What are you reasons against it?

Promiscuity has advantages and disadvantages. In our society I don't see the advantage.


The primary benefit of such behavior is a higher birth rate. However, with everyone on the pill and two minutes from an abortion clinic that's a null point. Women won't have children unless they want to... and that's unlikely to happen simply from sleeping around. In fact, what we need seems to be financially stable married families. Those the most likely incidents of child production. Which is as a society, what we want from the union. We have a few things harming us at the moment. For one, birth control is probably over used. I am not saying woman shouldn't have a choice in when or if they want to have children, but birth rates throughout the western world are appallingly low. It is one of our biggest weaknesses and a major long term threat to the continuation of our civilization.

Furthermore, do to the increasing importance of education on forming finanically stable households families spend more time career building then at any previous time in human history. This means that by the time stability is achieved both man and woman are nearly through their reproductive lives. This allows in most cases for between 1 to 4 children.. typically relying upon twins to achieve higher numbers. Biologically we are designed to start breeding the next generation after as few as 13 years. Historically we tend to accept between 16 and 25 as being the prime years. However as it stands people are getting ready only around age 35 in most cases. By 35 there is very little time left and the quality of the children is likely to be lower. Males especially have been shown to produce lower quality sperm later on in life. This results in birth defects and other complications. Often couples can't even have children at this stage without lots of medical help in the form of drugs and sometimes surgical impregnation.


This is a core issue. Never forget we're monkeys... sure... super mega monkeys... but we have to eat, drink, poop, and breed.


There are far, far to many people out there who barely have "bisexual" as a blip on their radar, despite the fact that its probably the most common "type" of person.

I don't think you can prove that. Certainly if I grew up in a society like sparta where it was simply expected that I have sex with men, I probably would. And my sexual organs working the way they do I'd probably "perform"... but I don't think it would be akin to sex with a woman.

Sure, most people are way over to the straight side of the scale, but since most people persist in thinking of it in a binary straight or gay -- with being recognized once in a blue moon! -- they refuse to realize that there is just a little bit of them that might be curious.

capable would be a more accurate term then curious for most. To be curious you have to be a little closer to neutral on the issue. I'm secure enough in my sexuality to admit that I can tell an attractive male body from an unattractive one. But I'm not stimulated by that form and never have been.

I think you might be forgetting that biologically homosexuality doesn't really serve a purpose. Thus I don't think it's quite as common as you think it is...

Again, this is one of my personal button issues, so I'm going to walk away.

I take a detached and philosophical view of such things. So forgive me for not abiding by PC norms. I believe in being both direct and detached. Many mistake the approach to arrogance but it's just a lack of fear mixed with as much honesty as I can find.
Reply #20 Top
I think Politics and Religeon should be banned from forums in which it's not relevant.

My personal view is irrelivant as these kind of conversations never end in a resolution.

And why is this a thread about homosexuality all of a sudden? Since when is it not a persons choice to do as they wish, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, then so be it. You all should brush up on your Human Rights.

Can we just move on?
Reply #21 Top

see? the assish arguing develops when I'm not here!
Reply #22 Top

I think Politics and Religeon should be banned from forums in which it's not relevant.

My personal view is irrelivant as these kind of conversations never end in a resolution.

And why is this a thread about homosexuality all of a sudden? Since when is it not a persons choice to do as they wish, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, then so be it. You all should brush up on your Human Rights.

Can we just move on?

I agree in cases where there is hostility and hatred formed from the conversations. Thus far most have been pretty respectful and mature however.


In the event that there is hostility and hatred, I'll do my best to either leave or terminate the discussion.
Reply #23 Top
I think Politics and Religeon should be banned from forums in which it's not relevant.

My personal view is irrelivant as these kind of conversations never end in a resolution.

And why is this a thread about homosexuality all of a sudden? Since when is it not a persons choice to do as they wish, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, then so be it. You all should brush up on your Human Rights.

Can we just move on?


they are called morality laws. you have never been allowed to do what you wanted.. untill a few years ago it was illegal for married people to engage in oral or anal sex in many states.
Reply #24 Top
You've lost all faith it seems with any human organization.


I have not lost all faith, I still have hope, a fools hope.

Skepticism tests ideas. But it does not create them. It is a critic... not an artist or an inventor. Skepticism is the banker that asks for your business plan. Not the businessman that came up with the idea.


Well then, call me Mr. Banker.

Radical Islamic Extremism... also referred to as Islamofascism. I'll define it if you don't know specifically what I mean.


Thats a precieved source. For all we know it could be a government ploy to attack Iran. I people got fired off the National Defense Board when they started planning a 'preemptive strike' on Iran and were found out by the New Yorker.

You're breeding complacency because action challenges your notion that nothing matters.


I dont have to breed complacency, it exist in rampancy all across the world. And all we have to thank is the Internet, our great source of information and misinformation.

No cities... no men on the moon... no internet.


No poverty, no politics, no weapons, no pollution, no destruction.

But because he was buying into a suicidal fallacy.


For all you know, so might you. As I said before, matters what you pay to get your own little version of our world, you own little 'fallacy'.

Nor am I afraid to try and think about such things. I'll fail along the way... probably repeatedly... but at least I'm trying.


Oh, how humble, how humanistic. What garbage, I say

If it's the second then if anything you should be explaining why I'm wrong.


But, what is the fun in knowing something, if you tell everyone about it.

Oh, of course I dont know everything, but what I dont know I conjure. Lies work just as well as truths, sometimes even better.

I am not saying woman shouldn't have a choice in when or if they want to have children, but birth rates throughout the western world are appallingly low


Thats a good thing, because people here live way too long. If we have another baby boomer generation this county will not survive.
Reply #25 Top
TGE you remind me of someone. his favorite vocab word is "disestablishmentarionalism"... if thats a word


either way, I seriously doubt you can say "I dont know you" as an intellect when your ideas are so repetative and shallow...