Yea, true but its the big ones that make the money of it. Soon enough something bad is bound to happen, its pure probability.

you all speak so loudly of america..
So how come americans accepted all those measures after 911 that are so discriminating against non-white people or poor people? they are restricting against everyone to a degree, but to those minorities there is no degree.
and how come american highschool kids are... to put it bluntly, dumber than their european counterparts? you say you learn more in total? it's totally the opposite. not only americans learn less than europeans, they learn less specific. only your colleges somewhat remedy that situation. but even population at large is so ignorant. ask 100 people in any american place where is europe, about 50 will ask what is europe?
and why is it that more than half a scientists are non american?

you all speak so loudly of america.. So how come americans accepted all those measures after 911 that are so discriminating against non-white people or poor people? they are restricting against everyone to a degree, but to those minorities there is no degree. and how come american highschool kids are... to put it bluntly, dumber than their european counterparts? you say you learn more in total? it's totally the opposite. not only americans learn less than europeans, they learn less specific. only your colleges somewhat remedy that situation. but even population at large is so ignorant. ask 100 people in any american place where is europe, about 50 will ask what is europe? and why is it that more than half a scientists are non american?

where did this come from? i called bush an idiot in the topic. i just said he wasn't the only idiot. if you would like to start a "hey lets bash eachother's country fest" thread, then i will be more then happy to oblige. i don't think anyone here has insulted Europe, and you don't sound too well informed yourself. who said we learned more? you are making broad assumptions which is fine, but if you're going to lecture people for making broad assumptions it's retarded.

the bottom line is nobody is perfect, and your shit smells just as bad as ours.

it provides nice cash influx (unless they send away jobs)

Sadly for you they do, i work at ibm(argentina) and here they make software for other countrys, cause they pay a lot less tax and to the programers.


PS:india does a lot of america soft. the other country the us. i mean is good for us cause is work(even they dont pay that much!!) but for you no, that why coorporation has to be controled.

To Obi Mark: dont pick fights you cant win, especailly if your armed with exagerated statistics.

Its sad that so much of the world has become about money. It used to that before companies actually cared somewhat for the skill of their workers or the quality of products. Now, thanks to the "American way", if any company wants to make a profit then they have to get something cheep, or cheat the government out of taxes.

Sadly for you they do

the truth is that this, while not exactly benefitial, is not entirely detrimental. sure its not exactly great, but why do we send away jobs?
because it makes way more money come back to us. yes it feeds viciously off lower classes, but its overall pretty healthy for a national economy.

So how come americans accepted all those measures after 911 that are so discriminating against non-white people or poor people

poor people?
well, you have to understand that this hit the center of American life. it created a fear uprising. this sort of thing was bound to happen. but its far better than the camps during WWII.

and how come american highschool kids are... to put it bluntly, dumber than their european counterparts? you say you learn more in total? it's totally the opposite. not only americans learn less than europeans, they learn less specific. only your colleges somewhat remedy that situation. but even population at large is so ignorant. ask 100 people in any american place where is europe, about 50 will ask what is europe? and why is it that more than half a scientists are non american?

for your sake I'll forget you said this.

Now, thanks to the "American way"

lets get this straight: this is something that has been occuring for centuries, the only reason people see this era as more money based is because you can no longer buy anything with reciprocal trust.
dont think for a second that the world was ever about benefiting the 2nd party. thats never been true.

@ticksNleeches8th
the whole thread degenerated into "all hail america, bow to us". I am just tired of people saying america is best. I'll be first to admit the Europe has some serious drawbacks, but usa isn't the promised land if you're not white & rich.
@emperor
what statistics?! who mentioned statistics?! I didn't even begin with statistics. this was based on personal experience.
@schematics
are you so seriously without arguments that you forget anything that doesn't suit you?
if you compare highschool educational programs between usa and almost any eu country, be that top of the line school or average schools, america comes out second. it's plain fact. do you know what is capital of norway? without looking on the internet? do you know where luxembourg is? Lake Victoria? What is Borneo and where can I find it? I won't even start with history. I bet you think americans captured enigma during WWII.

now you're just being obnoxious and insulting. i don't know if they have "fox news" in europe or where ever you live but it sounds like that's where you get your information from. why does every arguement in this thread boil down to the fact that you know several capitals of several european countries. any grade A student in the USA can name all fifty states and their capitals. i know i wasn't a grade a student and i can. sure, there are crummy school districts. not all states have great education. but i'm sure everyone in the czech republic goes to top notch schools...

if you are going to quote random facts and statistics like "more then half of scientist come from eu..." or whatever you said, you need to be able to back that up with some facts. you can't say, it's from personal experience. that's BS. so from personal experience, you've met every scientist in the world and conducted a census on their nationalities?

Sadly for you they do the truth is that this, while not exactly benefitial, is not entirely detrimental. sure its not exactly great, but why do we send away jobs? because it makes way more money come back to us. yes it feeds viciously off lower classes, but its overall pretty healthy for a national economy.

More money to us? you dont see what problems bring to you? COMPANYS get money not the american people. The job for the middle class american goes to another country, so that means an american without a job or bad paid jobs, it makes people skip computer based studies to go to something that gives more profit.

ps:sorry for ugly english.

To Obi Mark: Personal experience... so you actually went around to every single school district in America and compared it to every single other one in Europe? And then after that did you go up too 100 random people that u picked based on a logical mathematical formual and asked them what europe is and then counted who said no and yes? A piece of advice then, make better use of your time there is so much more out there in the world   

This thread has not become just about America, but it is clear that is the world leader currently, we arent saying that it is the best(some of us are). We are just stating the obvious everything else here is based upon the views and opinions of the individual posting.

Every single country has a lot to contribute but the US contributes the most to the world in terms of money, market, and products. Lets not get into an arguement over education, because none of us here can truely say that one system is better than the other, we havent experienced both enough to truely say what the disadvantages and advantages are to them.

Next, this countries economy does benifit the rich the most and usually the white person still gets better treatment, but that doesnt mean that the rest of the world isnt like this. Everyone is racist its in our nature, its just the extent to which we are that really matters. Plus, this country has the biggest rift between the poor and the rich, but thats only because we also have the largest middle class so the rift is self explanitory.

Lets get back to the real issue here, not economics, not politics, but rights of the people.

Lets not get into an arguement over education, because none of us here can truely say that one system is better than the other

Amen

COMPANYS get money not the american people

true, but like I said before, I'm an upper-middle class American with a fantastic education. prime CEO material, I'm only concerned with the national economy, I'm not much of a sympathizer.
besides, money that goes to companies eventually has to boil down to the people, where else would it go?

we arent saying that it is the best

as far as I'm concerned this is like defining good and evil. justice and injustice, people create imaginary "betters" within their own heads. I said they were different, and that Europe's (from what I heard) is its own type that I believe is inneficient and wasteful.
what I'm arguing here is that America is pretty dominating in the global spectrum. be that for better or for worse. although lets just say I'm a devout believer in Democracy.

are you so seriously without arguments that you forget anything that doesn't suit you?

Don't we all?

Repressing what we dont want to hear or see is human instinct, so he beat you there too obi mark. As for where the money could go, it might not go to the people many comapanies store it away in off shore accounts or they use it to invest in other companies. Most companies dont give back to the population any surplus they have usually goes towards the company and only then do the people benifit, but only very little.

@ticksNleeches8th
you get extra points for twisting my words, bravo! bonus points on that one alone.
it goes way beyond few capitals. compare it any way you like, best school, average schools (although it would be difficult to come to terms what average is)
let me give you an example of my educational system, going from primary school:
at age 6 you go to primary school.
at 7 you learn to read, write, basic arithmetics (adding, subtracting)
at 8 you learn second foregin language, usually english, more arithmetics (multiplication, division), this goes on for the next year as well
at age 10 you start with basic history, geography, more advanced mathematics, art, music and an option for second foreign language and if you really want latin (you do know what latin is, right?)
at age 12 you start with basic chemistry, physics, biology and option for ancient greek (you know, Zeus, Athens, Poseidon, that sort of ting)
all in all you spend some 30-35 hours in school each week depending if you have other interests.
Now that's what all kids go through. After that you have highschool.
Most of them have the same basic package per week:
4 hours of mother language
2 hours of first foreign language
2 hours of second foreign language (now it's obligatory)
2 hours of arts
2 hours of music arts
2 hours of geography
2 hours of history
2 hours of training
2 hours of mathematics
2 hours of chemistry
2 hours of biology
2 hours of computer science
2 hour of latin (now it's obligatory)
2 hours of ethics
at ages 15 you get reduction in arts, music arts, geography, but you get
2 psychology,
2 social science,
2 economy science
2 hours of philosophy
that's basic. all the highschools have that. you have however highschools that have more than 2 foregin languages, highschools with more maths, physics, computer science, highschools with more classical education (add 3 hours of latin and 3 of ancient greek)
So tell me, what did your highschool education look like? How would you do in our system? and be honest.
@emperor
but just because you don't want to hear something, doesn't mean it's not there. and if you ignore it, it just shows that you are withouth argument and that's what matters in a debate.
you want statistics, I admit, I have been misinformed, not half of scientists in usa are foreign, but one look at this, should make you worried
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/97-746.pdf
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/tables.htm
that about wraps it up.
don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that america is not that strong as you make it be. considering all the factors, how long can you stay first?

well it took a lot of time to bring down rome , you cant compare like that school systems like that, i live in argentina we a have horrible highschool system, but when we get to university, we are at the same level in a lot of carrers. Is true american dont know a lot about the world but neither europe people, an maerican may no know were EU is, bur EU dont know were other parts of the world are.

So tell me, what did your highschool education look like? How would you do in our system? and be honest

really good,
everything is consolidated into years (excluding foreign language)
so, every year you have, per week:
7 hours science
5 hours math
5 hours of foreign language (its practically useless unless you want to work in Texas... its an old relic that needs to be gotten rid of)
5 hours of "social sciences" (covers philosophy history psycology etc.)
5 hours of English (composition and literature)
5 hours of a personal choice (usually ends up being a computer science)

now, the thing is that it adjusts as you go further along. if your a science person going for a science major you can ditch the useless SS.

or they use it to invest in other companies

but this just means theres another company with that money. they use this to pay contracters and their own employees.

by very simple principle: companies are built completely on people, you dont pay machines to do things, you pay technicians to operate machines.
the web works like this
Companies->smaller buisnesses->people
\/
people->Companies
\/
smaller buisnesses->people
\/
Companies
et cetera
its just a web, putting stuff in any bank is practically negligable. they dont put lot money in the bank just to let it stew.

wow obi mark. you just made something clear
that type of school setup is even more ineffient than I originally thought.

2 hours of mathematics 2 hours of chemistry 2 hours of biology

this is bad, really bad... you need way more than that.

2 hours of second foreign language (now it's obligatory)

thats what happens when you have 20 different languages...
and the dilutation of the length of the work isnt good either. its better to consolidate your classes.
and lastly: Is *everything* obligatory? because we have a much more extensive system here. it allows people to chose their own courses efficiently, and although some people abuse it, they become our McDonaldsmen (for the majority, thats their fault, stop protecting them). and the rest usually get some pretty good ed.
last question, do your schools offer AP courses. please tell me they do.

how long can you stay first?

thats saying a lot considering you have a lot of ground to cover.
besides, loath though I am to say it its probably china that will take over the world.

in what way is inefficent?
so i guess you went to mathematical school, that would be equal to our mathematical gymnasium where you'd get more mathematics 5 hours, with 3 hours of computer science and more for physics.
what exactly you mean by science, biology, chemistry, physics? we have those
I guess it boils down to that you have more tehnical orientation, while we have more scocial sciences. Of course, if you want to specialize in something we have technical highschools where you focus on sciences. highschools, we call them gymnasiums, give more broader education. Specialization takes place in universities, but I think that we are differently organized there.
but I was talking about highschools in general. meaning EVERY highschool has that.
You? EVERY highschool has that?
Of course they do. Of course, there are also additonal lessons for those falling behind in the classes.

You? EVERY highschool has that?

I'm pretty certain that its national.
of course, this is excluding specialist schools, like religious nutcase schools.

in what way is inefficent?

its like trying to catch minows with a dolphin net. its way to broad in scope. you cant expect to teach anyone everything, let alone everyone everything.

Specialization takes place in universities, but I think that we are differently organized there

no, the same thing here. its just that preliminary orientation begins in highschool. and continues into college.

but still, I dont like how the system has you learn the same courses every year in EU. that makes no sense, the only class that does that here is Foreign Language, and all of the courses are merely repeats of last years.

it's not like that, you start with the beginning and work up. so in 1st grade of highschool mathematics you learn inequations, equations, that sort of thing, second grade is trigonometry, logarythms and exponantial equations, third grade is algebra, polynoms, fourth is more algebra, with derivations, combinations and probabilites if there's enough time.
history you start with learning about prehistorc and old age - roman empire -
second grade is early middle age, third is late middle age, rennesiance, and fourth grade is what's left. so you always learn something new.
chemistry you begin with periodic table, non - metal elements and work all the way to polymers, organic compounds. you learn very much very broadly.
sure not everyone learns everything, but close enough. Those that wish to learn will learn on their own as well.
so forgive me if I say you lack broader education and seem somewhat unaware of world at large.  

so forgive me if I say you lack broader education and seem somewhat unaware of world at large.

ahaha... right. come back and talk to me about being unawares of the world at large when you learn some more.

anyway I'm saying that its trying to cover a lot of ground too quickly. you CANNOT POSSIBLY learn all that with a 2 hour a week schedual unless your merely grazing the topic. in which case the education is absolutely useless.
and the proof is in the bag, so dont give me a BS arguement.

final question:
what is with a morals class? thats absurdely pointless. thats a waste of a lot of precious time.

Stop argueing about things you barely dable in, those statistics are outdated and have no reliability on even a national scale. All school districs only have the national standard program of education if they have the funds to support it. Otherwise they have to make cuts in certain areas, first would be arts, then science, then math, and finally english. Some school dont even offer advanced sciences(especially in Europe, looks at any of the southern countries). I have experienced both school systems and i have to say that neither is better or worse in a global scale(to my understanding), they each have their advantages. In Europe the education program is very excelerated, but generalised in many areas, usually if a student become prominent in a certain area than his scheduele is readjusted(by teachers and administrators) to fit his new found talents, if that person is exceptionaly gifted than they might even be sent to prep college or college years in advance to advance that persons skills. Now here in the US they dont generalise the student has freedom to choose their future not only on talents but wants, they get a choice and have to follow a losely constructed requirment system, this allows for them to be more creative but it also allows to much freedom for a young mind. Many will just pick the classes they think are the easiest and wont really work to their full potential keeping their true skills locked away untill to late. This ruins a lot of future potential in what might be good for that individual, but because the system keeps its doors open the person can quickly adjust and find new things to enjoy learing. Thats the thing here in the US learning in my opinion is a lot more geared to whin them need. In Europe you are more forced to follow more what they think is best and less of what you think is good for you.

Both systems have their advantages it really matters upon the individuals themselves to make the right choices to make the system function properly. Sure there will always be those easy goers that throw statistics off, but thats why i dont pay attention to statistics cause evey single one of them is wrong, its either biased, or calculated incorrectly, or doesnt take in a wider range of "norm". So dont have a statistics battle have an opinion battle.   

nice one emp.

Thanks it just got annoying watching you too argue about education over and over again, i want progress from this thread not repetition.

I just argue whatever I dont agree with, and watch how the thread progresses. sure, makes me a bit of an ass. but I dont care.

I feel absolutely compelled to respond to this thread. Haven't posted here in a while.

(good ridance, stem cells dont work anyhow!).

Aha, really, Schem? Is that so! Well, this is amazing, you, in all your sixteen years of glory, have managed to singlehandedly disprove an entire scientific discipline occupied by tens of thousands of medical professionals and PhD holders. Bravo. Sorry, but I think I'll ditch the uninformed teenage opinions and defer to the guys who managed to cure a 19-year old spinal cord injury with stem cells. Yeah, they definately don't work...

I have to admit, I was rather annoyed when reading this thread. Mostly because 95% of the posts here are blatant, self-rightous flauntings of one's own exaggerated knowledge. Schematic, let me tell you right now that you know very little about the world in general. You may think you're all powerful at what, sixteen years of age, but the fact is almost everything you "know" about the world and have said in this thread is entirely theoretical and learned from someone else. When you get out into the world and test some of this stuff, then you'll be ready for a real discussion or debate. I'm not saying this to be insulting or condescending, I certainly have a lot to learn myself too, but what you've said in this thread has inspired mostly laughs from me. I see lots of improvised theories and opinions presented as fact, and no proof at all.

While I agree that socialism is a flawed ideal, it certainly does not breed laziness. Fact is, most humans are not lazy. Most of us genuinely want to improve our lives and make them as great as possible within the limitations of our social and political environment. From what I've seen, laziness is more of a developmental issue that is completely unrelated to your form of government. If your parents pampered and sheltered you, odds are you'll be fairly lazy and unaware of obligations. If you were never told to do anything in life, odds are you'll be lazy. Laziness doesn't just suddenly pop up inside you because your government is socialist. Socialism tries to create progress and a stable society just like capitalism does, they just try to achieve the same thing through different ways. You can't possibly tell me capitalism is flawless.

I also take quite a bit of issue with this statement:

russia and china are the world's pinnacle of oppressive governments

Sorry Schem, but this statement shows an enormous disconnection with the real world. The epitome of oppressive governments? WHAT? I'm pretty sure that the Russian government doesn't practice kipnappings of political dissidents and door-to-door rapings like some governments, such as that of Myanmar, do. Russia places some restrictions on the internet and personal firearms, and suddenly that are the pinnacle of an oppressive government?

As for China, nobody can doubt it's a repressive government, but I wouldn't call it oppressive. China is on its way to becoming the world's major economic power - China is supposed to have the world's largest national economy by 2020. China certainly shelters its citizens, but it's lightening up in some respects (it's gotten much looser on freedom of speech restrictions in recent years) because it realizes that the freedom of intellectual development is absolutely critical for becoming a major world power.

I also have to agree with Emp's big post (#95). Well done. You phrased much of what I wanted to say there.

The point is that the world is a damn big place. America is a small part of it. We can sit here and feel safe on our computers in our mid-sized suburban houses that our parents pay for (well, generalizing on the ages here for intellectual purposes ) arguing about world politics on an internet message board, meanwhile people are being blown to bits in Tikrit, men are dying for their religion and state in Somalia, and some woman was just raped and murdered in Johannesburg. We know nothing about the world, therefore we shouldn't be sitting here aruging about something we don't understand. We all have a very limited knowledge of how things work, so anyone who offers their opinion as if it is the paramount truth to all others is simply wrong. Instead of sitting here making grand pronouncements about the world, maybe we should go explore it a bit.

-S[link="http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200411/kt2004112617575710440.htm"]WWW Link

I am glad you agree with one of my posts, i always try to find more of a middle ground. However, I dont think Schem meant to say it doesnt work but that it is risky and that the chances of it suceeding and not back firing are slim. Sure they curred the 19 year old but whos to say he wont develope cancer now? I know little of this subject, but i support its possibilities, still something this amazing and with such powerful potential should not be rushed into.

As for whether socialism breeds laziness or not, you cant prove it either way. Sure you can look at national statistics on that nations economy, but even that isnt good enough. The workings of the mind are much more complex, and are often over simplified, and those statistics would prove false if applied to one single individual. Thats why you cant relate socialism and laziness, laziness is only applied to one individual not a nation.

Next, to say that any of us in this thread know nothing or very little of the world is an understatement. We live in the age of Information, its at my very finger tips right now. But, sadly information just doesnt thrive in its purest form, you said that most of these posts were exaggerated knowledge, i agree. Its just information never exists whithout being slanted or biased, even if the source it started from is true. Its like playing telephone, the person who hears the words might either mishear them or change them to fit his or her whim. Even your own words are biased even if you dont want them to be, so are mine. Its human nature, but even that kind of information makes a good arguement and debate.

True, we might not see or might not want to see the larger picture of the world. Sure, we dont know its smallest going and comings, its happenings, its wars and conflicts. But, in the end all those things dont really influence the world do they, life goes on even if those people in Tikrit get blown to bits, even if those men die in Somalia in the conflict is over, a new one will just arrise, even if that women gets rapped whos to say that something good wont come of it. Those things have a chance, a potential, to influence the world in one direction or the other, but theres so much going on that usually one thing just cancels out the other.

Plus, most of our sources are biased to begin with, i mean look at mass media here they over dramatize things to the point where i often laught when i see the news. "Tonigh find out how EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE is in danger of terrorism." Its stupid. Thats why i ussually go to world news sites or even foreign sites to gather my info. Plus, i ussually look at more than one news article about the same thing, that way i can get the opinions of the writer and compare it against the opinions of another. And if im lucky I would be able to sort our the truth.

I have to say that you have strong opinions, everyone here does, comment more is all i have to say.   

To everyone, Happy Almost New Year!!