The fact that you would swallow anything the Bible says about God, despite the fact that your own moral compass leads you to believe that such behavior is wrong, is telling

Hear, hear. I can’t resist sharing the views of one particular bloke, who lost faith in fundamentalist Christianity when he began to see things more clearly. Even though he turned from one extreme to the other, from fundamentalist to atheist, I believe he could have struck more of a balance, and simply let go of his stifling belief in Biblical inerrancy, or at least let go of his adherence to extreme Biblical literalism.

In his book, ‘Losing Faith in Faith’, former preacher Dan Barker writes :

"It is interesting to read the Bible now, with new `eyesight' so to speak. I used to read all the ugly parts of the Bible, but for some reason they were invisible, even beautiful. I was taught that God was perfect, loving and righteous -so there could be no question in my mind of his character. Any apparent contradictions or ugliness could be ignored in the faith of the `mystery' of Gods ways. I'm glad those days are over."

In chapter 29 of his book, Barker sums up a typical portrayal of the Biblical God:

"Dear Believer, You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful... The Biblical god is a macho male warrior. Although he said "Thou shall not kill", he ordered death for all in opposition (Exodus 32:27), wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punished offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5); ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), demanded animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judged women inferior to men; ordered a man to be stoned to death for collecting firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), is the sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Isaiah 45:7)... sent bears to devour forty-two children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); urged parents to kill their teenage sons for being drunk (Deuteronomy 21.18), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, fire, famine, earthquakes and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10) Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?...Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity --but leave me out of it."

Even though Barker gets somewhat emotive toward the end, I think his reaction is understandable. In my opinion, it’s only a matter of time before humanity grows out of extreme religious fundamentalism and adopts a more mature and rational interpretation of central religious revelations. These interpretations will make sense of reality, and will be more aligned with our inner-compass and wisdom, which affirms that God is love.

Dear Believer, You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful... The Biblical god is a macho male warrior. Although he said "Thou shall not kill", he ordered death for all in opposition (Exodus 32:27), wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punished offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5); ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), demanded animal and human blood to appease his angry vanity; is partial to one race of people; judged women inferior to men; ordered a man to be stoned to death for collecting firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), is the sadist who created a hell to torture unbelievers; created evil (Isaiah 45:7)... sent bears to devour forty-two children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); urged parents to kill their teenage sons for being drunk (Deuteronomy 21.18), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, fire, famine, earthquakes and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10) Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?...Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity --but leave me out of it."

Good Lord this is a different view! Put like this he sounds dreadful and cruel, someone to be feared. What an eye opener.

I beleive I have made it quite clear, that the Hall of Souls is NOT in biblical scripture. Why continue to rant on this?

Sorry Xythe, just seen your comment. I should have posted that last one on another article,

Good Lord this is a different view! Put like this he sounds dreadful and cruel, someone to be feared. What an eye opener.

Yes, I think that deep down we all know God is not dreadful and cruel, and we can afford some healthy breathing space from extreme Scriptural fundamentalism. That goes for all religions,

....someone to be feared.

Now you know what they mean by the "fear of God".

Unfortunately...off-topic.

Did you find anything valuable on the Guf or The House of Souls, which as previously stated several times is in fact NOT biblical...and this, not a condition of bible errancy.

So, why continue to rant on this off-topic subject?
Seek the Koran where there actually is reference to the Seventh Heaven.

Sorry Xythe, just seen your comment. I should have posted that last one on another article,

Not a problem Andy. Do you have any thoughts on the House of Souls, also known as the Guf?

Hmm, okay...honestly I didn't read all the above comments or I'd be here awhile. So, I'll just comment without consulting the rest of the answers.

The Hall of Souls seems a good possibility for the Judeo/Christian religions. Hall of Souls also leads me to think about Valhalla in Norse Mythology were good warriors and the like go after they die to become Einherjar(I think I spelled that right). I'm really not good with religion...I find it too...shall I say preachy and boring. I mean, people have ruined the stories in the Bible....I already know what happens and that leads to the decrease in my desire to actually read it...and it's not very exciting except when you get to Armageddon stuff. I usually check out other mythologies because they're so rich in story and fun to discover. Now don't get me wrong, I am a Christian, so don't go thinking I'm a pagan. I just find those other stories are just interesting....specifically Norse, Greek, and Egyptian. Anywho, back to the topic at hand...I believe that all souls were created at once....and are probably residing in a limbo like suspended state. They are then incarnated in a body of flesh and blood and thus spend life on Earth. There may be potential for reincarnation...a past lives kind of thing. Perhaps people get bored and decide to give life another run...or they didn't live a satisfactory life the first time (or few times) around. I'm very open to different views and no one will ever really know until they're dead and meeting the heavenly entourage themselves.

Well, that's all for me, folks.

~Zoo

I usually check out other mythologies because they're so rich in story and fun to discover.

I think so as well. Thats why I chose this topic, it's full of mystery and mentioned in several faiths. I was hoping to get some of those from the Muslim faith in on this one as I am little versed in that religion. Besides, I have heard the 7th heaven is in fact mentioned in the Koran, which btw I have never read. I am inclined to buy a copy of the Koran as a referrencel

I just find those other stories are just interesting....specifically Norse, Greek, and Egyptian.

Zoo, you should check out the book Popol Vuh. It was the scripture of the Maya-Quiché people of Guatemala. It's an absolutely fascinating read!

Zoo, you should check out the book Popol Vuh. It was the scripture of the Maya-Quiché people of Guatemala.

I'm familiar with the Hunahpu myth...it was in a novel I read this summer...but I'll try and get ahold of the Popol Vuh...maybe they have one here at the University. Hmm...

~Zoo

"It would be nice if Mr Baker would comment on that. I myself would be interested to hear what he has to say on this."

I've been addressing it, though you don't really tie the two together. I addressed it when I addressed the point about angel's souls, and I addressed in regarding inerrancy. The situation that causes the need for the Guf relies upon the passage in question to be accurate. If it isn't... then there's no need for this mythical place.

If God didn't make everything at the beginning and then rest, then there's no need for a Guf. Your need for there TO be one is drawn TOTALLY from the need to rationalize an irrational description of creation. It's like trying to base geometric proofs on unverifiable facts.

It reminds me of KFC's 'answersingenesis' site where they work backwards from a certainty of the Genesis account's accuracy and try to make scientific theories regarding the earth's history. You're like an archaeologist trying to verify a mythical place based upon a myth, and worse, yours isn't even a tangible place that can be found.

I'm familiar with the Hunahpu myth...it was in a novel I read this summer...but I'll try and get ahold of the Popol Vuh...maybe they have one here at the University. Hmm...

So good. I just finished reading the original, sixteenth-century translation done by Fray Jimenex . . . amazing stuff. Hunahpu and Ixbalanqué are two of the coolest heroes in myth. Who else can survive dismemberment, decapitation, and utter destruction, grinding of the bones, and being cast like dust into the river, only to reanimate as fish-men, evolving through the many stages of life to become human again?

Ooh, I get chills just thinkin' about it.

I think it is easier to see what I am saying if you turn it around.

If I were to draw some conclusion that there is no perfect God because Mayan mythology recounts failed efforts to create Man, you'd question the basis for my supposition. You'd ask me how I can be so sure the source material is accurate enough to draw conclusions based upon it. You might even find it odd that I'd even suppose the inerrancy of the work when there's no reason for me to.

When you try to suppose whether a mythical place exists based upon a nuance of language in a book that doesn't even purport itself to be inerrant... well, I do the same thing. You start talking about angels' souls when you have no more authoritative statement on the existence of angels than they Maya did for their feathered serpents. You call me silly when I ask you how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but you can't really say what's the difference, can you?

I would ask you what the difference is between the question of whether there is a Guf and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Both suppose things about subjects that we have no knowledge of based upon material we have no way of verifying. Popular wisdom draws far more about angels, heaven, the devil, etc., from Milton than the Bible, for heaven's sake.

You start talking about angels' souls when you have no more authoritative statement on the existence of angels...

Please understand. Whether The Hall of Souls exists or nay, it has little to do with angels.
Assume angels do not exist. If, and I say IF all souls, or at least all souls perscribed to be born into the flesh were in fact created at the same time, where are they housed?

No, but discussions of angels and discussions of the Guf both rely upon a particular reading of a book, and not an objective reading.

If I said that because Mayan creation lists a failed attempt at making man that there is no perfect God, you'd question the validity of the source material. You say that there is a possibility of a Guf because the Bible says God made all creation at once and then rested, I, too, question the source material.

I don't think you can have a discussion about whether or not the Guf is a myth without looking critically at the material from which you get your information, can we? You state that the Guf has reason to exist because the Bible says what it says. The inevitable question is why we should believe that part of the Bible is the literal truth.

Even so, when someone makes a machine to make bottlecaps, they don't make all the bottlecaps ahead of time too and put them all in the machine. If the bottlecap machine maker rested on the seventh day, we can feel certain that the bottlecaps need not have been made previously. Souls or no souls, new physical people are being made all the time, unless you believe that each new genetic model is also stored in some warehouse somewhere.

So, "creation" as it were continues. Perhaps God's part in the process doesn't. Perhaps you're pondering something that has no bearing on the reality of creation at all. In order to say because x is true then y has reason to exist, you need to really be sure that x is true.

Perhaps you're pondering something that has no bearing on the reality of creation at all.

Thats entirely possible.
The fact that a soul exists is subject to the same scrutiny.
The fact is, anything we can not explore with our senses is under the same scrutiny.

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody sees or hears it fall, and nobody has ever seen the tree for the course of the trees existance until decayed to an untracable state, and lastly there is never any evidence that the tree ever existed, did a tree really fall?

If there is no evidence that human beings were creaded, and there is no evidence of evolution, and there is no evidence of the origin of human beings, do human beings exist even though I see them all around me? If so, how? (Simply by the fact I can see them?)

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but I have a funny feeling I'm going to get a lesson in logic/critical thinking

Hey, Baker, don't doubt the inerrancy of the Popol Vuh, because it's true! Every word. Proof that the sun and the moon are actually the bad-to-the-bones twins . . . they're not celestial bodies, oh no . . .

You're taking it a step too far, Xythe.

Just because you doubt or distrust a particular theory about the creation of something doesn't mean that something wasn't in some way created. Not unlike people who say if you doubt a scrap of the Bible you have to toss it all out. The first is thinking critically, the second is delusional.

If you look closely at a lot of doctrine you'll see it arises from things that don't make sense to us. If this is true, then the only way it CAN be true is if this other thing is true. After a while, you start creating all sorts of ideas and phenomena just to keep the original truth intact.

I think you can avoid a lot of that by simply admitting that everything in the Bible need not be true. Then we don't need to rationalize horrific behavior by God in the old testament. Then you don't need to invent a hall of souls where all the prefab people are stored.

You didn't address my point about the bottlecap machine, btw. Even if the creation story is true, why must we believe that God didn't create the process for creating souls and then just leave the universe to it? Occam's Razor never really gets used that often in religion, because it tends to reduce the need for these superfluous ideas that get dreamed up to rationalize old flaws.

beleive I have made it quite clear, that the Hall of Souls is NOT in biblical scripture. Why continue to rant on this?

I second this thought!

"beleive I have made it quite clear, that the Hall of Souls is NOT in biblical scripture. Why continue to rant on this?"

Because the fact that seems to necessitate the Guf IS based upon the circumstances of scripture; i.e. that God made everything, and everything includes the souls of everyone yet to be. If there is something outside of scripture that lends to this belief I'll gladly focus on it, but it is my understanding we're talking about the Biblical creation story.

why must we believe that God didn't create the process for creating souls and then just leave the universe to it?

I understand your point here Mr. Baker. I feel similarly when I think of evolution.I don' think that God hangs out and says I'll create this or that "creature" today or I'll cause this or that extinction. I feel for certain that God had done all of his creating as its stated in Genesis setting His plan into motion, then letting nature (or the universe) run its course. I do not believe this to be the case with people, as I do not beleive people evolved from any other "heritage" other than God breathing the life into Adam.

If there is something outside of scripture that lends to this belief I'll gladly focus on it, but it is my understanding we're talking about the Biblical creation story.

The Guf or the Hall of Souls supposedly lie within the 7th heaven. While you are in fact correct in saying this place is based on the circumstance of scripture, I wholly beleive you are mistaken about it being in any biblical scripture.


The "guff" is a term the Talmud uses to refer to the repository of all unborn souls. Literally, the word "guff" means "body."

The Talmud says, "The Son of David (Mashiach) will not arrive until there's no more 'soul' in the 'body.' " This means that there are a certain number of souls in heaven waiting to be born. Until they are born, they wait in a heavenly repository called "the body." The Mashiach won't arrive until every single one of these souls has been born into the physical world.

This teaches that each person is important and has a unique role which only he, with his unique soul, can fulfill. Even a newborn baby brings the Mashiach closer simply by being born.(Wikipedia)


According to Jewish mysticism, Heaven is divided into seven realms. In order from lowest to highest, the seven Heavens are listed alongside the angels who govern them and any further information:

1. Shamayim- The first Heaven, governed by Archangel Gabriel, is the closest of heavenly realms to the Earth; it is also considered the abode of Adam and Eve.
2. Raquia- The second Heaven is dually controlled by Zachariel and Raphael. It was in this Heaven that Moses, during his visit to Paradise, encountered the angel Nuriel who stood "300 parasangs high, with a retinue of 50 myriads of angels all fashioned out of water and fire." Also, Raquia is considered the realm where the fallen angels are imprisoned and the planets fastened (Rf: The Legends of the Jews I, 131, and II, 306)
3. Shehaqim- The third Heaven, under the leadership of Anahel, serves as the home of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life; it is also the realm where manna, the holy food of angels, is produced (Rf: The Legends of the Jews V, 374). The Second Book of Enoch, meanwhile, states that both Paradise and Hell are accomodated in Shehaqim with Hell being located simply " on the northen side."
4. Machonon- The fourth Heaven is ruled by the well-known Archangel Michael , and according to Talmud Hagiga 12, it contains the heavenly Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Altar.
5. Machon- The fifth Heaven is under the administration of Samael, an angel referred to as evil by some but is merely a dark servant of God to others.
6. Zebul- The sixth Heaven falls under the jurisdiction of Zachiel.
7. Araboth- The seventh Heaven, under the leadership of Cassiel, is the holiest of the seven Heavens provided the fact that it houses the Throne of Glory attended by the Seven Archangels and serves as the realm in which God dwells; underneath the throne itself lies the abode of all unborn human souls. It is also considered the home of the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and the Hayyoth.


Islam also has mention of the seventh heaven:

Islamic tradition also recognises seven heavens in Paradise (Arabic:Jannah), The highest level of heaven is Firdaws (فردوس), which is where the prophets, the martyrs and the most truthful and pious people will dwell, as stated in the following Quranic verses utilizing rhetoric to place emphasis on the magnificence of God:

"See you not how God has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun a Lamp?" (Sura 71:15-16) [1]

"He who created the seven heavens one above another: no want of proportion will thou see in the Creation of (God), most gracious..." (Sura 67:3).

"Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?" They will say, "(They belong) to God." Say: "Will ye not then be filled with awe?" (Sura 23:86-87)

"When you pray ask for Firdaws, for it is in the middle of heaven and is higher in grade than the heaven and above Firdaws is God’s throne, moreover the canals of heaven flow from Firdaws." (Bukhari)

Furthermore, various legends have arisen about the seven Heavens in Islamic lore, such as the Angel of Death residing in the third Heaven whilst Jesus and John the Baptist are in the second Heaven. (Wikipedia)


So as you can see, the concept of the Guf as being a repository of souls resides within Jewish scriptures, but I have yet to see any mention of the Guf, or anything of that place implicated within the Holy Bible.


So, for the record, my understanding and belief goes as follows:

Since there is no mention of the Guf or the Well of Souls (or anyplace like them) within the pages of the Bible, this is a concept that I don't really need to know about as being factual. If it were that important for me to know, God would have told me somehow. Like the origin of time, space, and the universe, there are things I as a mortal will not know until I assume my spiritual body as God promises. When I become "equal to the angels" these mysteries will no longer be unknown to me.

So until the time when I do assume my spiritual body and become equal to the angels, I am content to be facinated by the myth(s) associated with the Well of Souls or the Guf as a study of Jewish belief and culture.

As far as the seventh heaven is concerned, I had heard little to nothing about this place before writing this article. This is a place according to Jewish scripture that Moses had visited during his visit to Paradise. To my knowledge, there is no mention of the seventh heave, nor Moses visiting "Paradise" mentioned. Another concept I assume I will know nothing about until I join the Host of heaven.

Islam has some mention of the seventh heaven. I know absolutely nothing about Islamic scripture, and about as much about Islamic culture. I have come up with a copy of the Koran, and when I learn how to use it, I will find how the seventh heaven fits into the Islamic nation. At the very least, that study will at least give me some understanding about how Islamic people worship and live and a small knowledge of Islamic culture (outside of hearing what is said on the ...news). However, I do not anticipate that I will be changing any of my beliefs do to this study.

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"The Guf or the Hall of Souls supposedly lie within the 7th heaven. While you are in fact correct in saying this place is based on the circumstance of scripture, I wholly beleive you are mistaken about it being in any biblical scripture."

Where exactly did I SAY it was in any scripture? I simply said that since you can trace the NEED for the Guf to exist back to a nuance of bibilical scripture, you can't really discuss the possibility of it without discussing scripture.

Is it safe to say that all of the religions seem to be woven together and whilst each religions sees it differently, the religions lead to one god.

Jen, All religions are hardly woven together, nor to they all share a common thread, and all religions do not lead to one God (the God of Abraham).

It is just interpretation of the word of the god that differs in the telling?

No, there are idiological differences as well. Its the actual beliefes that differ. Just think about it. Allreligions do not even have the same characters, some as I have mentioned do not contain the God of Abraham.

The fact it is not mentioned in the telling of the Bible, could mean that the author/s just never "heard" about it (Guf) or never thought it relevant to his writings and interpretations?

The authors of the bible undoubtedly never heard about it. Why? They heard about whatever Jesus thought was important for them to know and their testimonies are based on Jesus's teachings. Perhaps the guf is not mentioned in the bible because it does not exist. Perhaps its as I mentioned earlier, "like other concepts, the guf is something we do not need to know about. I do not believe it has anything to do with a Christians salgvation.

Not a problem Andy. Do you have any thoughts on the House of Souls, also known as the Guf?

I believe that all new souls are created at the outset in the Spirit World, (the Heavenly world), and are subsequently born into a physical body on earth at a later time when the soul needs to expand its experience and knowledge. But I don’t believe that a House of Souls exists, in the sense of housing souls in a state of limbo before incarnating on earth.

The nearest I’ve heard to a House of Souls is a place called the ‘Holding Place’. This is not unlike purgatory. Souls who go way off path during incarnations on earth - in the sense of losing the plot and becoming murderers, rapists or paedophiles, for example – usually gravitate to the Holding Place after death, where they will wait for another opportunity to incarnate on earth to balance out their negative karma. (It is difficult to balance out negative karma in Heaven, because the challenges don’t exist there.) I've read about the Holding Place many times in books written by psychics, but I don't know anything about a House of Souls.