"I beleive the way God thinks is beyond my human scope of comprehention. It is not up to me to judge the morality of a supernatural being. It seems from your statements however that you in fact do place yourself in that regard."

I'm not judging God, I'm judging primitive man's view of God as recorded by your book. In the Old Testament era kings were tyrants and gods were worse. If someone comes you you and tells you that God does x,y, or z, you aren't judging God to question what they say.

You equate paper and ink to God, therefore you think my questioning the Bible is questioning God. Idolatry? I think so. I think there is a lot of good to be found in the Bible, but to put my soul in its hands is to entrust my soul to the works of man.

I don't believe a perfect being acts like a spoiled child or a ruthless despot. The fact that you would swallow anything the Bible says about God, despite the fact that your own moral compass leads you to believe that such behavior is wrong, is telling. To me it says that the paper and ink holds more authority than even that still small voice.

"God does not abuse His creation. He allows things to happen for His own reasons. And if we want to sulk and cry about what we feel is unfair then that is our free will to do so. Instead , we could seek God and learn lessons from why such things happen, or maybe our situation that He has allowed will become a testimony to someone else. And probably many things we will never know as to why they were allowed, and that is ok."

Nor do I think God abuses His creation. It's the people who worship books and barbarian gods that propose worshiping a being who can't even live up to the lacking moral standards of modern society. Like all the supposition of mythological pools of souls and whether angels and people are equal after death, you guys make up your own definition of God, irrespective of the spirit of right and wrong the REAL God cared enough to put in you.

"You seem not to believe that the Bible is as the true Word of God. Yes it was written by man and things have been translated through the years, but it is STIlL the Word of God.And the Truths of it are as strong as they were when the Bible came into place.

Yep, and that's the same thing an Islamic person will tell you about the Koran. That's the same thing you'd hear from people who follow modern religious kooks who pose the idea that they are God's conduit for wisdom into the world. All of them tell you to blindly trust what some people somewhere at sometime said, often against the better judgment God provides us with.

What exactly makes your assertion more plausible or believable? Nothing. Blindly follow and hope for the best. Faith in God? Hardly. Faith in a book.

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All of them tell you to blindly trust what some people somewhere at sometime said, often against the better judgment God provides us with.

Or the poor judgment Satan influences upon some.

More sillyness. I'll pray for you child Xythe - don't do this you are above that you sound like Aeryk now.

I admit, it was a bit tacky...but mostly ment to be a play on words. Baker most likely laughed when he saw it. I apologize if any offence was taken.

we pity you:)

Is that not meant to read - we love you and forgive you?

Forgive them father for they know not what they do? something to that effect? I am not good at remembering quotes or versus, I feel sure you will be able to pull it out of a hat for me though   

Xythe you are having a good debate here and a good thread - do not ruin it by getting this way.   

Walk the talk the way you started out the thread, reasonable and logical, take your time answering the rebuttals.

No point in starting a debate just to get flustered or piffy. Enjoy it and make the most of it.  

KFC, some parts of the Bible support reincarnation.

There is nothing in scripture that supports reincarnation including the two you chose to list.

First of all Elijah never died. He was one of two (Enoch the other) that was brought up alive. So how does this fit with reincarnation? Also, as Xythe already said, John denied he was Elijah. The truth be told, John was like Elijah. He was a forerunner and from his description looked and dressed liked Elijah did.

The blind man? If you go to the Psalms you'll see that it says "In sin did my mother conceive me." We are conceived in sin. We are born with sin. Jesus in fact did, and I agree with Baker on this, create this man with this infirmity for such a time as this.

You may think it odd Jen but you are looking at it from an earthly perspective not a Godly one. See, by doing this, many came to a saving knowledge of Christ as a result of seeing these miracles, wether it be via a blind man, a lame man or a person with leprosy. So because of these people many, many, people were able to live for ever in eternity. Belief is all that is needed for eternal life and because of these people many more came to believe in the miracle worker (Jesus) believing he was God in the flesh as they saw him at work.

I would gladly suffer blindness if I knew that many would be in heaven as a result of my blindness.

As a matter of fact you may want to read Helen Keller who was blind, deaf and dumb. She said there is something worse than being blind. Those that are able to see but have no vision.

You may also want to check out a lady named Jennifer Rothschild who has been blind since the age of 15. She is amazing and is also bringing many people to Christ with her attitude and love for God. God is using her to touch people's lives. She says being blind on earth is nothing in comparison to living forever in eternity. I've seen her on stage and I swear she's actually glowing when she speaks.

Good job Xythe. Keep up the good work~~

You seem not to believe that the Bible is as the true Word of God. Yes it was written by man and things have been translated through the years, but it is STIlL the Word of God.And the Truths of it are as strong as they were when the Bible came into place

Amen!

God is big enough to keep an eye on this book, his own words. The ones that doubt it have never really read it and studied it from my experience.

I recently heard of a Scienctist who was in the field of Genetics. He was an atheist until he went through his residency in a hospital. There he encountered many who were dying. He was perplexed as he saw the joy in those that were Christians regardless of their trials. He saw a difference in those that were believers and those not. Then one day when an 80 year old woman questioned him and his belief, he replied he didn't believe in God. She asked "why not?" That question haunted him. He had no scientific reason to give her and it bugged him to no end. So he went on a mission to find one. He went to a Pastor who led him to C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity"

For those who don't know, Lewis also was an atheist before he came face to face with God. This book is one of logic and when this Scientist read the book he saw his own arguments crumble with Lewis's logic and it all came together for him. He had no choice but to believe that there was indeed a God.

I heard about this on the radio, but a friend of mine said you can get the book and the story on C-Span.

Again, KFC, the examples you use have zilch to do with the Bible being inerrant. The change you describe in people refers to God and what He does, not the Bible. If it is because the people chose the religion of the Bible, then you have to deal with the millions who change their lives and become devout Muslims.

Does their conversion prove the Koran to be inerrant?

I have no doubt that God COULD make an inerrant book if He wanted to. He's God, after all. What I can't do, however, is vouch for a book that doesn't itself purport to be inerrant. How could it? It wasn't a "book" until centuries after the authors had died.

In order for me to believe it is inerrant, I have to a) take the word of worldly religion, and b) overlook a ton of things that tell me that it isn't perfect. I consider some of it slanderous toward God, and I think there is pretty much no greater blaspheme than to blame God for evil acts. If a god can't keep its own commandments, it isn't really a god at all.

The difference between you and I is if, and I admit it is an IF, the Bible ISN'T perfect, you have to change your image of God to fit something that is flawed. That's why some people rationalize and excuse the barbaric acts of the OT god in order to keep their book inerrant. If you don't support biblical inerrancy, then you don't have to accept evil acts that are below even vile humanity as somehow being God's holy work.

I recently heard of a Scienctist who was in the field of Genetics. He was an atheist until he went through his residency in a hospital. There he encountered many who were dying. He was perplexed as he saw the joy in those that were Christians regardless of their trials. He saw a difference in those that were believers and those not. Then one day when an 80 year old woman questioned him and his belief, he replied he didn't believe in God. She asked "why not?" That question haunted him. He had no scientific reason to give her and it bugged him to no end. So he went on a mission to find one. He went to a Pastor who led him to C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity"

Lewis also was an atheist before he came face to face with God. This book is one of logic and when this Scientist read the book he saw his own arguments crumble with Lewis's logic and it all came together for him. He had no choice but to believe that there was indeed a God.

The trouble with testimonies like this, is that for every testimony a person gives about converting to Christianity, another testimony can be told about someone who converted to Islam, or became a Buddhist, or lost faith in Christianity and became an atheist. (I once attended a Muslim seminar to check out what the preacher had to say. The place was full of people who had beliefs equally as rigid and firm as yours, KFC, but they simply believed in another book and in another religion. They believed that the Qur’an was inerrant, and nothing would sway their view. They believed that all other religions, including Christianity, were “wrong”. Many of the people there were white Muslims, who had once been Christian and had since converted to Islam. At the end of the seminar, after conversing with a lot of the people there, I thought, “Room for growth for these folk. They're too narrow minded and are too dogmatic for their own good.”)

But our own personal experience is what really counts, and if we’re at peace with our beliefs, then we’re doing okay.

I thank you for you comments Baker...can we kindly more on?

feel free to quote the Koran or whatever.

Is the Hall of Souls a fact or a myth?

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Xythe - are you going to start a thread on this to tell us more about it? It sounds interesting.

Actually Jen, THIS thread is SUPPOSED to be about the Hall of Souls, or the Guf.

It would be nice if Mr Baker would comment on that. I myself would be interested to hear what he has to say on this.

It should be esay for him, as there is no reference to the Guf or The Hall of Souls in the bible.

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Jen,

Please understand that NONE of what I am going to say is biblical in any way shape or form. Besides, my understanding of all this is pretty limited. Anyhow, this is all I know about the 7th heaven (mythical?):

For starters, the 7 heavens are ruled by the 7 archangels.

The archangel Cassiel rules the most holy 7th heaven. Supposedly this heaven is the house of Gods throne.

It also houses the 3 highest chiors of angels, the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones.

This is the heaven where supposedly the unborn souls of men are held.

- The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, a Jewish Spiritual work mentions the 7 heavens, as well as the Islamic Koran (as I am told, I have never read the Koran).

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Your welcom Jen....Let us know what you find!

I would truly be interested in what the Koran has to say about the 7th heaven.

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If we are to become like angels upon our physical deaths, what happens to free will? Angels do not have free will, so do we lose ours when we die?

I believe angels do in fact have free will. Otherwise, how would 1/3 of the angelic host become fallen angels? Did God tell them to disobey Him?

The fact that you would swallow anything the Bible says about God, despite the fact that your own moral compass leads you to believe that such behavior is wrong, is telling. To me it says that the paper and ink holds more authority than even that still small voice.

  Great one, Baker!

Like I've said on other religion threads on this site, it seems funny that people strain at a gnat about biblical points while swallowing the camel of confusion . . . to use the Lord's own example. Many of you are simply parroting the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

What sets apart angels from us is that we can be forgiven and restored, and they can't. To follow God or not was a one-shot deal for angels, as far as we can tell. 1 Peter 1:12 says that angels "long to look into these things" (salvation and grace), which are not available to them. (Susan Bohlin)

Like I've said on other religion threads on this site, it seems funny that people strain at a gnat about biblical points while swallowing the camel of confusion . . . to use the Lord's own example. Many of you are simply parroting the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

I beleive I have made it quite clear, that the Hall of Souls is NOT in biblical scripture. Why continue to rant on this?

Like I've said on other religion threads on this site, it seems funny that people strain at a gnat about biblical points while swallowing the camel of confusion . . . to use the Lord's own example. Many of you are simply parroting the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

I beleive I have made it quite clear, that the Hall of Souls is NOT in biblical scripture. Why continue to rant on this?