Mountains are awesome. Have cliffs too!

I want chime in as a player that started last Tuesday. Through Sunday I just started a game and settled where Soveirgn spawned. On Sunday as I started realising the importance of starting grain I started looking for the best spot. This Tuesdays game started me in a narrow hilled canyon with all 4 Empire around me and 2 NPCs areas.. the ones with the Obsidian golems and the one with the Umber-dogs. Of the few monster spawns near me one was a Drake army and the other one of those Shrill Lords.

I struggled through yesterday to turn 120 and since I couldnt expand past 2 cities had all 4 declare war on me on top of the random high level mosters attacking me. I opted for scorched earth by just hitting enemies and razing their cities as I didnt have much room or ability to defend. The high level monsters in the first 50 turns where the killer though.

Late yesterday I just restarted because it was too tedious and limiting to continue and my next start is a lovely town by a river with a ton of low level monster spawns and a forest nearby . No enemy factions encountered so far and I'm on turn 50. Two sides of my start area has mountains. It occured to me that start location is random and I plan to actively seek reasonable start areas from here on out.

So I think the solution is you code the game the way StevenAus is suggesting and you call this "preset start areas" or something in the gameplay options. You let new players get their feet wet with such starts and when they finally feel like they know what they are doing they can check the box off and play with random starts as the game is now. As this design is much more challenging and it's availability is, in my opinion, a competitive advantage of this game over others.

It's an advanatge because just playing this new game, since I had my teeth cut 2 days prior, is boring in comparison. I aready know I'm going to win but I've never played this faction so I want to experiance it. I find it funny how I assumed different factions were stronger and now I realise it's all about start area.

Nice addition to this ongoing discussion, Horsesfly!  It was helpful that you provided all of the detail that you did, especially noting that your perspective was that of a new player. 

Your serial, differing, experiences certainly help to illustrate what a huge factor the quality of the starting location is.  It totally helps to set a tone for much of the rest of the game.  I think we are seeing a consensus emerge; that the best thing Stardock could do with this issue, is to provide a selectable switch, that offers either "Pre-balanced starting locations", or "Random locations".  Making that choice, then, will be one of the first meaningful choices that every player gets to make, every time.  And that should make the majority of players pretty happy ... every time ...

BTW, couldn't help but notice the nifty new avatar you developed in the last couple of days ... Nice one!

People play for different reasons .

And yes a switch option is the best, I would still prefer some at least slightly more balanced starts, I don't mind being a little bit of an underdog, but some starts are just impossible to work with, like when you're locked out on your own island and have to purchase a lvl 9 hero or have raise land to exit it... Dunno if that "bug" is still there though

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Thanks!

Thinking about this some more it occurred to me that resources must be limited. There must be a budget and a deadline for this game to release as all things. This new switch though nice may be too much extra work.

In which case equal relief for new players and the occasional bad start would be additional free town defenders. I don't know what the different difficulties mean though I assume they have to do with the resources enemy factions get each turn or something. In which case I think we need to identify more pragmatically what a bad start location adds up to.

A bad start location would amount to getting attacked more. It would mean you couldn't expand enough. It would mean you would be forced to play at less than ideal efficiency. You would be forced to play inefficient enough whereby you would be eventually overwhelmed.

It seems the frequency of attacks and strength of nearby enemy factions is curtailed by the game difficulty setting. What's not controlled is the monster strength and frequency.

For example in my game I had a Shrill Lord and a Drake army within my start city limits. Also I had 2 Quest areas with Obsidian Guardians and Umberlings spawning and attacking me in the first 100 turns.

So it seems an easier fix would be either give the easier difficulty settings free additional guardians in their start cities as you cannot level your research high enough to make worthwhile units to combat high level monsters in the first 50 turns. Or make difficulty level also change the monster frequency settings by default.

Either would reduce the chance for high level monsters to destroy a new player with a bad start and would seem simpler ways to address the issue than adding a completely new feature.

I actually had more trouble with the 3 packs of dogs and the Obsidian Guardians.

Is it something I'm doing that makes the monsters in the quest areas come out and attack me?

Like I do all the good neighbor things. Keep the dog on a leash so it wont ravage their lawn.. keep noisy appliances off the common wall so they dont hear vibrations.... run the snow blower an extra 60 seconds and do their sidewalk too. Heck I even am extra quiet in the mornings since I know they are monsters and party all night. Nothing seems to make them not leave their area and come to attack me.  

ahhaah I knew you'd laugh.   

So what is a Monster's area? Is it a 5 by 5 box like an ootpost with their lair center? It seems like if you pass nearby them they get triggered so just a 3 by 3 area.  Sometimes it feels like the enemy factions trigger them but they attack you. It could also be caravans triggering them. I've learnt now to stay far away.

As fas as Master Scout , that sound really awesome. Never realised it was so powerful. The more I play the more things surprise me. Yesterday I started with Caresa for the first time and after first few turns I dug in expecting a real long and hard campaign as he seemed really wimpy. At some point though he got 2 spells, Dirge and Pain Howl (I think it was called Pain Howl) and the whole game flipped. He was unstoppable. Most powerful faction to date for sure. I think I got my highest score for finishing game so fast I've ever gotten.

Also was first time I tried that arena quest against the 5 obsidian golems. They are immune to magic and poison but that Howl spell doesnt seem to be either.. it just works against everything. I rolled over them in 3 turns. The dragon got loose and I sent Caresa solo and he beat the dragon with no damage. Same with the Epic quest monsters like the worm and the Ice giant..Caresa destroyed both of them.   

Starting City Characteristics:

I am a big fan of a "balance start" option box vs. a "random start".

Balanced start = All players have access to a set max city value (6,7,8 combined Grain/Mat) within  a (1,2,?) tile radius of their sovereign starting spot.

 All players have access to an equal number of resources (2,3,4?) within a (2,3,?) tile radius of their starting spot. 

No Monsters lairs within a (4,5,?) tile radius of the starting spot. 

One faction hero available as already exists. 

Random Start = As it is now. 

City Boosting Spells:

I agree that these spells seem very mandatory to have to compete economically. I like the ideas of having them become higher level spells or adding to the in initial mana cost for the cast. 

Higher level city boosting spells = They will still be accessible at start, but require more of a focus into that magic trait. 

Higher initial mana cost = Making it near impossible to cast both in the beginning. 

I really think these need to be balanced out to reduce their status as "optimal" spells to have. 

I dont mind low-amount of city empires, all the way down to single city empires, and want to say, before I get further, that you should consider there probably will be made a Mod(e), alternate user created addon to the game, that will create advanced benefits for the capital, or to the only player that currently have cities (Think I saw some of the current modders talk about it anyways)

THAT being said, I do not think the approach to single-city viability is to "Artificially Inflate" the power of your capital, but instead give you a decent amount of buildings, in which there can only be one off in an empire, some such or similar benefits would help low-city count factions out, It does not seem to me that the single-city approach is one favoured by the devs at the moment, I played BETA 4 for a few hours today and it seems to favour having at least a couple of cities.

THAT said, you cannot create a game that appeals to every single gamer out there, so you must choose what design goals you really want, and stick with them.

Hope you get the solution you want in the end though, be it capital boosting, or just a mechanic to help the first few cities besides "just a boost", I do want to see you happy

Sincerely
~ Kongdej