please inform me, oh wise one, on how mormons and buddhists are simultaneously correct... i can't wait to hear this one...
for those who would like to know why i find this funny check out: the statement of beliefs and doctrine from the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints (the mormons) at www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1082-1,00.html AND then compare that to a Buddhist Education site describing how Buddhism is different from other religions at www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm. a quick comparison will show that maybe you, karmagirl, "obviously have no clue about that which you speak. you may want to learn about buddhism before you make such claims."
and go ahead and tell me that i don't know anything about buddhism... both of my roommates are involved in buddhist culture (in fact i live with a buddha statute even tho i reject the ignorant teachings of that religion). and for the record, you can call me arrogant, i won't mind a bit.

buddha statute even tho i reject the ignorant teachings of that religion

Well, then, you must not agree with the 10 commandments, either then, since the doctrines of the Buddhist PHILOSOPHY are basically the same.  Since you speak of Buddhism as a "religion", you obviously DON'T know about its teachings.  If you are looking at it as a religion, what "God" does the Buddhist pray to?  What happens when you are dead?  Buddhist have Buddha statues as a way to ponder buddhism.  He is dead and is not a deity.  There are religions that incorporate Buddhism, but they are not simply buddhism.  There is no deity, and there is no teaching about "after death" with Buddhism.  it's all about the here and now.

Buddhism is a philosophy about how to lead a helpful life on earth.  It is how to find personal enlightenment and to care for others as well as yourself.  Mormons believe in the bible yadda yadda ya.  They both could be right.  I know Buddhist Christians.  They follow the Buddhist philosophies and the religion of Christianity.  The two work together quite well. 

Of course, I really don't care.  I'm not debating with an anonymous troll.

keep smoking the green stuff...

Christianity: Buddhism:
1. Worship one God 1. "No diety" but Worships self (seeks personal enlightenment, w/ self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving)
2. Jesus Christ as the only Saviour 2. No saviour (The liberation of self is the responsibility of one's own self)
3. Man is sinful and in need of a saviour 3. The idea of sin or original sin has no place in Buddhism
4. One life, then judgement 4. Samsara (perpetual cycles of existence), and No judgement
5. God created a beginning and end to life 5. No beginning and no end to one's existence or life
6. Faith in Christ- man goes to Heaven 6. The ultimate goal: liberation from Samsara; rather than to go to a Heaven
No faith in Christ- man goes to Hell But really, who knows? (like you said Buddha is dead)

Please enlighten me to how these differences can both be true.

For starters, the first 3 of the 10 commandments in Exodus 20:
1. "I am God your Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery. Do not have any other gods before Me" (no God in Buddhism)
2. "Do not take the name of God your Lord in vain (again, no God in Buddhism)
3. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy (no Sabbath in Buddhism)

Thats not "basically the same philosophy."

and just for kickers... i asked my friend from sri lanka if buddhism is a religion and he said.... "yes"

ps. i'm not a troll... good guess tho

I also believe Buddhism is a religion. Some do worship Buddha as a deity and some worship other gods along with Buddha. There are also many branches of Buddhism so it's hard to pinpoint exactly.

There are differences yes, but there are some things that we agree on also. Most Buddhist are taught to live according to several precepts that are in total harmony with scripture. Such as....no stealing, committing adultery and no lying among other things.

Buddhists recognize that life is temporal. Nothing here has eternality. All things are finite, limited and uable to sustain their own existence. Scripture also supports this. Agree here.

Also Buddhism teaches that all people are subject to suffering. The bible again supports this belief. Where the two part company here would be that while Christianity believes that suffering is allowed by God and used by Him to shape and refine us for eternal life Buddhist believe it's something to avoid. There are lessons to be learned thru suffering. Buddhism on the other hand finds no redeeming value in suffering and is only something to escape.

We also differ on the foundational doctrine of Buddhism on reincarnation. This clearly contradicts the bible. Scripture teaches that we have but one chance and that's it.

Buddhism denies the existence of a personal God and there is no such thing as sin against a personal God although our sinful actions affect people around us

There are radical differences between Buddhism and Christianity that make any attempt of reconciliation between these two faiths impossible. The Buddhistic world view is basically monistic. That is, the existence of a personal creator and Lord is denied. The world operates by natural power and law, not divine command.

Also Karma......I was a Mormon (no longer tho).

Hey KFC...this is off topic.

Wanted to tell you that I talked to my neighbor down the street who taught a masters program at Wright Pat for officers.

I was wrong. There is a master's program for LT' and up..for the best and brightest the AF has to offer. So your son was right about it being here and being for Lts.

Sorry about that.

You must be so proud he is even being considered. According to my neighbor, that program is for real "geniuses." I guess most of the new military technology comes out of there! Wow.

He told me during desert storm the school was tasked with inventing a weapon that could penetrate some special circumstances in Iraq. They did it really fast and that weapon is still used today.

Anyway, just wanted to tell ya I was wrong about that.

Thanks Tova,

We're not sure yet but Brian is trying his hardest to get in. He has to take his GRE's first. He's aiming. At VMI he's very highly ranked, has alot of responsibilities and has been told because of his military clearance he will not be deported anywhere. I guess cuz he knows too much and is too valuable. I questioned this because he's still young and at the beginning of his career but he says it's so.

Ya Brian also said the new technology is what he will be privy to and working on as well.

So keep fingers crossed and pray he gets in. Still not a for sure thing yet.

KFC

keep smoking the green stuff...

Thanks, but I have never smoked anything green in my life.

and just for kickers... i asked my friend from sri lanka if buddhism is a religion and he said.... "yes"

How can a "religion" have no deity?  Buddha means "one who is awake", which means that you have enlightened *yourself*.

The point of being a Buddha is to end your personal suffering and help others do the same.

There is a saying that you hear all the time from Christians: "God helps those who helps themselves".

Buddhism is a way of helping yourself while on Earth.  It does not conflict with Christianity because it does not address the "afterlife" nor does it have a "God" or deity.  Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) was a man who lived and dies.  He never claimed to be God nor the son of god nor any deity at all.  All he claimed was that he was enlightened and wanted to teach others to be enlightened.

If anyone prays to Buddha, they are not actually following Buddhism.  Buddhism is a symbol, and nothing more.  He is a man that Buddhist wish to be like, but he is not divine.

Some people say that Buddhism is a "religion" because people follow it as a way of life.  If you use a definition such as: "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader", it almost fits, but as a "divine" religion (in the spiritual sense by modern day definition) it is not a religion.  There is no God.  There is no "wrong" or "right".  It is all about ones self discovery.

Therefore, you can enlighten yourself to end your personal suffering (after all, wouldn't the great "perfect" God want us to do so?) and also believe in the Christian faith by praying to "God" and living life to be rewarded in the after life.

How to be a Christian Buddhist?  How can they both be right?

1. Worship one God 1. "No diety" but Worships self (seeks personal enlightenment, w/ self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving)
2. Jesus Christ as the only Saviour 2. No saviour (The liberation of self is the responsibility of one's own self)

-Since there is no God in Buddhism, you are not praying to a false God, therefore the Christian God *is* the only God.  Buddhism teaches you to end your own suffering on Earth.  It does not teach you about an "afterlife" nor does it tell you not to follow other paths to spiritual enlightenment.

3. Man is sinful and in need of a saviour 3. The idea of sin or original sin has no place in Buddhism

-No, Buddhist call "sin" "impurity".  The Buddhist strives to become "pure".  It's just a difference in terms. 

4. One life, then judgement 4. Samsara (perpetual cycles of existence), and No judgement

-Want to talk about Samsara?  How about this info: "Samsara is a fundamental concept in Buddhism and it is simply the 'perpetual cycles of existence' or endless rounds of rebirth among the six realms of existence. This cyclical rebirth pattern will only end when a sentient being attains Nirvana, i.e. virtual exhaustion of karma, habitual traces, defilements and delusions. All other religions preach one heaven, one earth and one hell, but this perspective is very limited compared with Buddhist samsara where heaven is just one of the six realms of existence and it has 28 levels/planes."

So, it doesn't "define" judgment or say it exits or doesn't exist.  Who is to say that Christianity isn't right, yet it is just a piece of a larger spiritual power?  Buddhism being "right" doesn't make Christianity "wrong".  They could both exist since they don't contradict each other.

5. God created a beginning and end to life 5. No beginning and no end to one's existence or life

- This is not true.  Were you reading some "cliff note" type sites and pulled that out of one?  Do you know why Siddhartha Gautama started his path to enlightenment?  It was because he was aware of death.  Anyone who has studied Tibetan Buddhism is constantly reminded of the importance of mindfulness of death.   

6. Faith in Christ- man goes to Heaven 6. The ultimate goal: liberation from Samsara; rather than to go to a Heaven
No faith in Christ- man goes to Hell But really, who knows? (like you said Buddha is is dead)

- See, here is where you are showing that you haven't studied Buddhism.  Samsara is the stages of life.  It includes heaven and hell.  Who is to say that a "rebirth" couldn't be in the form of going to heaven (in the "Christian" sense)?  That is an open ended Philosophy following Buddhism.  There is no answer to it, because divine religion is not specified in Buddhism.  There is no God or deity.  The only "spirituality" is within the person.

Some do worship Buddha as a deity

  

People look to him as a teacher, but not as a deity.  No Buddhist sees Buddha as a "god".  He never claimed to be one, and no Buddhist become one.  If they are worshiping him, then they have made their own religion.

We also differ on the foundational doctrine of Buddhism on reincarnation.

 

There is "re-birth" in Buddhism, not reincarnation.  One could say that "living in heaven" would be a re-birth.  Re-birth is *not* reincarnation.

How about the "4 noble truths" of Buddhism:

1. The Truth of Suffering, or Misery, that life is suffering, including birth, disease, old age, and death;

2. The Truth of the Cause, that suffering is caused by desire and by ignorance, which ultimately depend on each other;

3. The Truth of Cessation, that suffering can be ended if its causes, desire and ignorance, are removed; and

4. The Truth of the Way, which is the Middle Way, between the extremes of asceticism and indulgence.

How do those work against Christianity?  Does it not say that we all suffer?  Does it not say that we learn from our suffering?  We are "ignorant" and therefore suffer?  That we should not follow extremes (thinks about some of the 7 deadly sins)?  Does it not talk about a "truth" of birth and death?

Buddhism does not claim how life started, or who the "Creator" was.  Nor does it claim that there is not a creator.  The Christian God could fill in that gap, and Christianity and Buddhism could make a very complete picture.  Both being right but in different, complimenting ways.

Thanks Karma for giving me your point of view. I have never "studied" the Buddhist Philosophy like you. I have studied alot on the many different religions and ideas out there being involved in many of them but never been personally involved in the Buddhist movement.

I have never figured out exactly what Nirvana really means. Can you "enlighten" me on this? Seriously I want to know. From what I understand it's something that you can never be sure of. To me it would be like buying a plane ticket without really knowing where I'm going. What if you're going to a place that's not a really nice place? In contrast Christ said we could "know" for sure where we are going if we put our trust in him. He made it clear many times even saying he was preparing a place for us and that he would come back to get us. I believe this to be true. So nirvana to me seems a bit scary.

While Christians believe in "a" rebirth, it only happens once...spiritually. You are born once physically and then again spiritually....but not everyone is. But if I understand Buddhism correctly you believe to reach nirvana you have to escape samsara. Samsara is the cycle of rebirths that is known more commonly in the West as reincarnation. Freedom from samsara leads to virvana.

But I also read somewhere that according to the oldest Buddhist tradition a woman will never reach nirvana from this life even if she becomes a Buddhist nun. She must be reborn as a man who becomes a monk. Is this all true?

I find this to be interesting especially since the gnostic gospels teach this as well especially in the Gospel of Thomas. From my point of view I find this interesting because in the book of Daniel in the bible it says the anti-christ will have no use for women. Jesus had nothing but love and much compassion for women. In fact one of the reasons the bible is so credible is that his first resurrection appearance was to the women. Of course the men didn't believe them at first. Women's testimonies meant zilch.I love how he elevates woman, and when I read things that contradict this...... of course my "red flags." go up.

It seems when I read about Buddhism I find that it seems to be split into a number of small groups holding different interpretations of the dharma....similar to the Protestant Faith. And then......there's Richard Gere........

all very interesting.....I must say.

but the problem with this illustration is identifying the elephant with God

I wasn't identifying the elephant as god.

You totally missed the point.

Yes, you did.

You said earlier that you had a read a little about Buddhism, yet here you are trying to tell Karma what her life philosophy is about.  I don't like that.  You don't get to read a book and immediately know everything there is to know about Buddhism and it's precepts.

I'm a practicing Buddhist, and I've been Buddhist for 6 years.  I STILL don't know everything there is to know about it.  But I do know that you are misguided in the thought that the Buddha is a god.  He isn't a deity.  He's simply a man, a man who attained enlightenment.  That's why we bow to Buddha statues, out of respect.  That's why we bow to our monastic elders, out of respect.  That's why we bow to each other, out of respect.  Buddhism isn't really a religion in that there is no deity and it doesn't require faith.  It doesn't ask me to believe in anything I cannot examine or try and find for my own self to be true. 

You should read the response karma left you, she's taken the time to try and explain to you what we're all about...and I have immense respect for her for doing that.  Personally, I find your constant proselytizing tiresome and I simply don't have the patience to talk to you when you're in 'super christian, converter of all heathens' mode because I get aggrivated and then anger comes a knockin' and I end up feeling frustrated and drained for no good reason.

Don't believe everything you read, about Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, Sikhism, Judaism, Islam, whateverism....even Christianity.

Oh, and there aren't any different interpretations of the dharma.  It's all the same.

 

 

Peace.

Ya, doc....ditto

dharmagrl says:
"Personally, I find your constant proselytizing tiresome and I simply don't have the patience to talk to you when you're in 'super christian, converter of all heathens' mode because I get aggrivated and then anger comes a knockin' and I end up feeling frustrated and drained for no good reason."

Yet she continues to talk.... subjecting herself to KFC's "proselytizing"

KarmaGirl says: "I'm not debating with an anonymous troll."

Yet she continues to debate the 'anonymous troll'... (even though her explanations make no rational sense what-so-ever)

MY CONCLUSION: dharmagrl and KarmaGirl are actually enjoying the conversation... why else would they keep coming back for more "proselyting"?

Dear "what I find so funny...",

Yes, you are an anonymous troll.  Why don't you register if you want to "add" anything to the conversation?  You do realize that we record IPs even on "anonymous" users, right?  Just because you don't use a static IP doesn't mean that it's not apparent who you are.

But if I understand Buddhism correctly you believe to reach nirvana you have to escape samsara. Samsara is the cycle of rebirths that is known more commonly in the West as reincarnation. Freedom from samsara leads to virvana.

You are thinking of "rebirth" in the wrong sense.  First, you have to think only of life on Earth in the here and now.  Buddhist go through life cycles on Earth.  It's part of enlightenment.  "Nirvana" is simply a different term for "enlightenment".  you can't think in "Christian" terms when thinking of Buddhism.  Christianity is based on what happens after death.  Buddhism is based on what happens during life.  Enlightenment is when you are able to escape personal pain, ignorance and greed (at it's simplest form).

Samsara is the cycle of rebirths that is known more commonly in the West as reincarnation.

Samsara is suffering, and you have the wrong idea (again) about reincarnation. Nirvana is, as Karma explained, enlightenment. Everyone has the ability to become enlightened. I'll give you an example of a step towards nirvana: this debate is causing me samsara (sufferning). If I walk away from it, my suffering ceases. I figure out that walking away from it ends the suffering, and I don't argue here anymore. That's a step towards enlightenment, and is in itself an enlightenment. I've figured out what causes the samsara I feel here, and I've removed myself from it - thereby ending the samsara.

Like I said, I'm not asked to put faith in anything I cannot try and find for my own self to be true.

I'll give you an example of a step towards nirvana: this debate is causing me samsara (sufferning). If I walk away from it, my suffering ceases. I figure out that walking away from it ends the suffering, and I don't argue here anymore. That's a step towards enlightenment, and is in itself an enlightenment.

That's a very good, real life, example.

Namaste, Dharma.

Yes this is as I said earlier is different than that of the Christian experience. We look at suffering as not something to get away from but part of our refining experience and draws us closer to him. As Christ suffered so shall we. Nobody enjoys suffering but it's lessened by realizing that God is doing a work in us. He never leaves us alone in our suffering.

My example would be a silversmith refining silver. A silversmith takes the silver and puts it under high hot heat. But he doesn't take his eyes off it. At the right time he takes it out when he deems it's ready. When asked how he would know when it's ready one silversmith replied....."Oh that's easy.....when I see my reflection in it."

That's how it's supposed to be with Christians as well. God is putting his reflection in us. We are all walking at different paces. All on the same path but at various distances so to speak. As we get closer to him his reflection is that much clearer in us and can be seen by others.

Suffering actually brings about good results in the Christians' life. One is patience. We learn to endure. We learn to wait thru it. Peter said.

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him be not ashamed but let him glorify God on his behalf. "

While I don't enjoy the thought of trial or suffering, I do know that God like the silversmith has his eyes on me and it's all for a purpose. It's all part of the refining process and many times it's useful later to help others going through their trials and tribulations as well.

Karma:

What's a IP?

well then karmagirl... tell me what my IP address is then.... and furthermore, tell me who i am? ha...
who's to say that i don't have a registered name? but then again, who's to say that i don't? i prefer the hit and run approach to commenting...

and dharmagrl... according to your example, you must not be very enlightened then, because you keep coming back to this debate... just a thought...

Namaste, Dharma.

Namaste, Karma.

you must not be very enlightened then,

I never said that I was, now did I?

Thanks LW for stopping by and......lilacs?

I'm really not trying to convert or convince so much as trying to explain. I keep saying I can't convince or convert. It's not my job.

While I do use scripture when I feel it's appropriate I certainly do not do so if I feel it's not wanted.

So if you're the bad girl of JU.....what does that make me? Forget it.....I've already been told..............

well then karmagirl... tell me what my IP address is then.... and furthermore, tell me who i am? ha... who's to say that i don't have a registered name? but then again, who's to say that i don't? i prefer the hit and run approach to commenting...

Naaaaw, your to much of a coward to come at anyone head-on.

well then karmagirl... tell me what my IP address is then.... and furthermore, tell me who i am? ha... who's to say that i don't have a registered name? but then again, who's to say that i don't?

I know that you are not registered here.  I'm not stating your IP, because I don't want to be responsible for the hackers.  How is New Orleans this time of year?  How do I know who you are?  It's transparent.  You showed up to stick up for your Mom.  Your Mom has revealed in other threads that she has a son in New Orleans...your IPs track there, you both were Mormons and the only threads you pop up on are ones defending her.  Doesn't take much to put it together.  Of course, your writing gave it away before any facts were even gathered.....

Uh.....Karma.

My Son was never a Mormon. I was a Mormn before I was married and it was only for a year. So technically while we studied with this group for a year we never really were that ingrained in that religion.

So technically while we studied with this group for a year we never really were that ingrained in that religion.

He didn't say he was a mormon- it was just a stretch because he knew so much about it.  People tend to only defend things anonymously when they have an agenda.

BTW, you never mentioned any of your children's religions before (other than "Christian").  Why did you decide to now?  Was it the only part that you could correct?

It's obvious who he is, and I wouldn't doubt if some of the other "anonymous" users that stick up for you aren't one or both of your other two sons.  Anonymous posting really isn't that anonymous.

Anonymous posting really isn't that anonymous.

To us it is. To you it's not. You "do" have a little advantage over us peons.